How would you log it?

[SkyHog]

A week ago or so, we were talking in chat about the idea that if two pilots were on board, one could act as PIC while the other logged PIC, which could come in handy if one of the two needed to get their currency back, to perform the landings.

So - suppose someone did that......First pilot takes off, then gives the controls to 2nd pilot, who is not current. 2nd Pilot logs 3 landings, and gives controls back to First pilot. How would you log that? No departure airport, only a landing airport?

 

[rpadula]

I don't think you can do that. The moment control is passed to the 2nd pilot, the first pilot becomes a passenger -- not allowed if the 2nd pilot is not current.

-Rich

 

[tonycondon]

unless one of you is under thehood or the airplane requires two crewmembers, either one of you can only log the time (and landings) that you were sole manipulator of the controls. In your example the current pilot would be acting as PIC for the entire flight, even though hardly any, if any, would be loggable.

 

[ScottM]

unless one of you is under thehood or the airplane requires two crewmembers, either one of you can only log the time (and landings) that you were sole manipulator of the controls. In your example the current pilot would be acting as PIC for the entire flight, even though hardly any, if any, would be loggable.

I was wondering about the hood thing being away around this. But what happens on the approach when the person lifts up the hood. The safety pilot is no longer needed. In that case he becomes just a pax. If the person flying the plane was the one under the hood he cannot legally act as pic any longer.

 

[tonycondon]

why cant the person under the hood act as PIC?

 

[Greebo]

I think scott is saying that hood pilot can't legally be PIC once the hood is off, becase once the hood is off, person in right seat is no longer a required member, and becomes a passenger, which violates currency.

I can't remember now, though - why can't right seat guy be PIC the whole time? Currency requires three landings, not three landings as PIC.

Or for PPL does PIC need to be sole manipulator as well?

Then again, if we're talking about the 3 landing currency rules (not IFR currency rules), why does the left seater need ANYONE in the right seat?

If all the left seater needs is three landings, and his certs are in order (no BFR outstanding, etc), then go do the three TO/L's solo?

 

[ScottM]

why cant the person under the hood act as PIC?

I am saying when he lifts up the hood to land the plane he is now flying visually so no safety pilot is needed. Then that safety pilot is now relegated to the role of passenger. The person who had been acting as PIC under the hood cannot legally carry passengers when he is not under hood as he is not legal PIC any longer.

 

[SkyHog]

Tony, I thought we were discussing this in chat the other night? Two pilots, one current, the other not. One pilot can ACT as PIC, while the other manipulates the controls and LOGS PIC, right?

In that case, the current pilot ACTs as PIC, and the non-current LOGs PIC. Wasn't that what we decided (or was I not talking with you - very possible....that dude from AOPA's forums might have given me a contact high).

 

[gismo]

Tony, I thought we were discussing this in chat the other night? Two pilots, one current, the other not. One pilot can ACT as PIC, while the other manipulates the controls and LOGS PIC, right?

In that case, the current pilot ACTs as PIC, and the non-current LOGs PIC. Wasn't that what we decided (or was I not talking with you - very possible....that dude from AOPA's forums might have given me a contact high).

Maybe you need more sleep? The only time more than one pilot can log PIC is when more than one pilot is required by the regs and one is acting PIC while the other is the sole manipulator. The only example that applies to two non-CFI pilots in a Cherokee is when the sole manipulator is "under the hood" requiring a second (safety) pilot and the safety pilot is the acting PIC (and responsible for the flight) by agreement. The second that the sole manipulator takes off his view limiting device, the acting/non-flying PIC can no longer log the time.

 

[SkyHog]

Maybe you need more sleep? The only time more than one pilot can log PIC is when more than one pilot is required by the regs and one is acting PIC while the other is the sole manipulator. The only example that applies to two non-CFI pilots in a Cherokee is when the sole manipulator is "under the hood" requiring a second (safety) pilot and the safety pilot is the acting PIC (and responsible for the flight) by agreement. The second that the sole manipulator takes off his view limiting device, the acting/non-flying PIC can no longer log the time.

Ahh do I need more sleep, or do you?

I never said both log. Only one logs, and that is the pilot flying. The other is simply acting as PIC.

 

[cwyckham]

I never said both log. Only one logs, and that is the pilot flying. The other is simply acting as PIC.

You are correct, Nick. Logging PIC and acting as PIC are two separate and unrelated activities. The FAA would have saved everyone a lot of hassle if they'd not called two different things by the same name. They should have called them PWHOC and PWAOL (Pilot Whose Hands are On the Controls and Pilot Whose A** is On the Line). Then everyone would know what's going on and we'd be saved from raging arguments in the hangar and on we forums.

A pilot cannot act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless they are current. However, they can fly an aircraft with somebody else acting as PIC. A pilot logs PIC when they are manipulating the controls of an aircraft their rated in (not endorsed, not current, just rated) as well as a couple other times like when a required crewmember or when a CFI, neither of which are important to the current situation. A pilot needs to log 3 landings in the last 90 days to carry passengers, but it doesn't say they need to be acting as PIC while they do it.

Your original question about how to log the landings is a separate issue. There's really no legal relevance to where you're flying to and from, it's more for interest and to enhance the inspector's understanding of the flight. I usually log the entire route of the flight in this portion. If I've bee sharing flying duties, I only log the time and landings/take-offs that I was sole manipulator of the controls, though. I have a couple flights that show zeros in that column. This is because the landings column is used to determine currency, so if I logged landings where I wasn't sole manipulator of the controls, nobody would be able to tell if I'm current or not.

Chris

 

[EdFred]

Nick, if you aren't current, and I am (ignore that I have the CFI for this) I can act as PIC (but not log it) while you fly your three stop and bangs for currency. You are NOT acting as PIC, I am. But since I am not a required crewmember, I can not log the time. Same thing would apply to complex, tailwheel, high-performance, or pressurized aircraft. You might not have an endorsement for any of those, but you could log all the time you had your hands on the controls, and even the landings. I would just sit there fat dumb and happy while logging nothing.

 

[Greebo]

But, once again, why bring another pilot into it?

You're not current. You need 3 TO/L's to get current. While you're not current, you may not carry passengers. You CAN still be PIC while solo.

You CAN'T be PIC if your BFR is past due (like mine - sigh - i hate being broke), and the you need a CFI.

 

[tonycondon]

I think we got that all cleared up. I think the reasoning in Chat nick had for having the other pilot along was something about that pilot being required for insurance reasons. As in he would be flying the acting PICs airplane and the acting PIC was required to act as PIC for insurance to be valid.

 

[poadeleted20]

From the top...

A week ago or so, we were talking in chat about the idea that if two pilots were on board, one could act as PIC while the other logged PIC, which could come in handy if one of the two needed to get their currency back, to perform the landings.

Correct, although not always smart unless the person acting as PIC is competent to fly the plane from the right seat if necessary and knows enough to tell when (and how) to take over if the non-current pilot starts to lose it.

So - suppose someone did that......First pilot takes off, then gives the controls to 2nd pilot, who is not current. 2nd Pilot logs 3 landings, and gives controls back to First pilot. How would you log that? No departure airport, only a landing airport?

Pilot 1 would log the time, takeoffs, and landings he flew, and Pilot 2 would log the time, takeoffs, and landings he flew. Note that you must log both takeoffs and landings to be current. All time logged would be in the PIC columns of the respective logbooks, and the total of the two entries would equal the total time of flight.

I don't think you can do that. The moment control is passed to the 2nd pilot, the first pilot becomes a passenger -- not allowed if the 2nd pilot is not current.

It doesn't matter who's controlling the plane, just who is the final authority responsible for the flight. As long as Pilot 1 remainst that final authority, he can let my dog Duke fly the plane while still being the legal PIC for the flight. Of course, Duke can't log the sole manipulator time because he isn't rated, but the fact that Duke's flying the plane doesn't relieve the real PIC of his status as PIC.

unless one of you is under thehood or the airplane requires two crewmembers, either one of you can only log the time (and landings) that you were sole manipulator of the controls. In your example the current pilot would be acting as PIC for the entire flight, even though hardly any, if any, would be loggable.

Perhaps not the most compositionally correct statement of the situation, but technically correct (I think -- see "compositionally correct," above).

I was wondering about the hood thing being away around this. But what happens on the approach when the person lifts up the hood. The safety pilot is no longer needed. In that case he becomes just a pax. If the person flying the plane was the one under the hood he cannot legally act as pic any longer.

Again, it doesn't matter who's flying the plane -- the PIC is the PIC is the PIC. Of course, if he's not flying the plane, and two pilots aren't required, he's not logging anything, but he's still the PIC and still eats the dirt if something bad happens.

I think scott is saying that hood pilot can't legally be PIC once the hood is off, becase once the hood is off, person in right seat is no longer a required member, and becomes a passenger, which violates currency.

If Scott is saying that, Scott is wrong, because it doesn't matter who's wearing the hood or who's flying the plane -- the one and only person qualified to be the PIC remains the PIC.

I can't remember now, though - why can't right seat guy be PIC the whole time? Currency requires three landings, not three landings as PIC.

The right seat pilot can log the time he's sole manipulator as PIC time. The PIC can log the time he's flying as PIC time. Neither can log the time when the other is flying the plane.

Or for PPL does PIC need to be sole manipulator as well?

Not if two pilots are required (e.g., LearJet or hooded pilot).

Then again, if we're talking about the 3 landing currency rules (not IFR currency rules), why does the left seater need ANYONE in the right seat?

A non-passenger-current pilot may fly solo as long as all other PIC requirements are met. Note, though, that it's three landings and takeoffs, not just three landings, to be current to carry passengers.

If all the left seater needs is three landings, and his certs are in order (no BFR outstanding, etc), then go do the three TO/L's solo?

He could, legally, although maybe not safely. The fact that the non-current pilot hasn't gotten the FAA-minimum required takeoffs and landings for carrying passengers suggests he may be a little rusty, and having someone else (preferably a CFI) along to monitor things may be a real good idea.

 

[KennyFlys]

I saw a slight reference to this in one post but I'm too lazy to read through again and find it....

When you make a flight with a safety pilot, it's a very, very good idea to have agreement beforehand whom would be PIC as far as total responsibility for the flight. You can be safety pilot but not be held responsible for an ensuing incident.

I read of such a case a while back where the FAA had difficulty in determining whom to hold liable as both were pointing the finger at each other. While we'd never think our "friend" would do us this way in such a case as during an approach, he doesn't see and call out conflicting traffic... well, you get the picture. For both sakes, sign one's logbook before the flight as PIC for the flight. It's a great tool to help each other out but if liability isn't clear, both may lose a ticket.

 

[poadeleted20]

When you make a flight with a safety pilot, it's a very, very good idea to have agreement beforehand whom would be PIC as far as total responsibility for the flight.

More than even a "very, very good idea," I think you'd have to be pretty foolish not to establish this before the flight.

You can be safety pilot but not be held responsible for an ensuing incident.

That's not entirely true. Yes, from an FAA standpoint, you might not get a violation if some reg was busted, but it might not protect you from civil liability if an accident occurs. After all, a jury found a non-pilot passenger sleeping in the right seat partially responsible for an accident, and the higher courts affirmed the judgement.

I read of such a case a while back where the FAA had difficulty in determining whom to hold liable as both were pointing the finger at each other. While we'd never think our "friend" would do us this way in such a case as during an approach, he doesn't see and call out conflicting traffic... well, you get the picture.

Even if you're an SIC safety pilot, you are still responsible for performing your duties, specifically spotting other traffic. Remember that while responsibility may not be delegated, it may be shared.

For both sakes, sign one's logbook before the flight as PIC for the flight. It's a great tool to help each other out but if liability isn't clear, both may lose a ticket.

I'm not sure about signing logbooks. There are no provisions in the FAR's for this, and FAA folks might wonder about it if they saw it. The only thing the FAA expects is the name (not signature) of the safety pilot.