How would GA user fees affect you?

[Datadriver]

I've said this before. You CAN NOT believe, and vote for the far left, liberal doctrine Obama and the Dems support and be a proponent of General Aviation. There are so many conflict there from wealth re-distribution to environmental policy. Its the same people I see with Obama stickers on their large SUV's, Escalades, Benz's and other expensive vehicles. Total hypocricy.

This!

 

[JesseD]

I've said this before. You CAN NOT believe, and vote for the far left, liberal doctrine Obama and the Dems support and be a proponent of General Aviation. There are so many conflict there from wealth re-distribution to environmental policy. Its the same people I see with Obama stickers on their large SUV's, Escalades, Benz's and other expensive vehicles. Total hypocricy.

Then again, I can't vote for Corporatism either. Nor can I vote for Libertarianism. Finally, calling the Democratic party far left is a joke too. If anything, we're stuck with a a pair of right-wing parties where the legislators are only concerned with themselves and their perks.

Don't believe that the Democratic party is right wing? Please go outside America and see what left-wing parties really are like. They have them in many other "first world" countries.

Hypocrisy exists in all forms in America, from the religious to the monetary. I have yet to see many people of faith living as Jesus of Nazareth. I have yet to see a large corporation (or the Chamber of Commerce, which my friend refuses to be a part of) actually looking to do things that benefit business as a whole, instead of themselves while hurting competitors.

We are a country of people that are hilariously incapable of defining various forms of government, but gladly label each other "Socialists" or "Fascists."

I've traveled enough to see most in person, during my lucky (wanderlust) youth. So for me, seeing this sad state of idiocy is appalling. "Small-government" from the "conservatives"? I want to vomit. "Fairness" from the "liberals"? Again, vomit. "Libertarians" that really believe in a "free-market"? When pigs fly.

These twits only care about elections, and whatever part of their "ideology" helps them stay elected. The sooner that is realized, and the sooner we actually learn to look past the sound bites, to see that we may have to change what we changed because it's not working, the better. Then again, I have little hope in that. Thinking requires effort, something lacking in the majority of the voting populace.

 

[MadseasoN]

If there ever is a $100 fee to use any ATC services then I would not use those services. This includes avoiding areas in which I would be required to use those services.

If ever it costs me a user fee to fly in <> Class G, which is pretty much everywhere around here, then I would quit flying.

 

[Gmaper]

If there ever is a $100 fee to use any ATC services then I would not use those services. This includes avoiding areas in which I would be required to use those services.

If ever it costs me a user fee to fly in <> Class G, which is pretty much everywhere around here, then I would quit flying.

I notice that TX changed their fee structure on vehicles. It appears to me that some people will pay more, some less. If you are one of those who has to pay more will you quit driving?

I sure wish there was a way to pay for facilities and services without having to resort to fees or the dreaded "t" word, taxes.

 

[dennyleeb]

Here's the deal dude, this is not a new issue, like the fairy tale of the up coming pilot shortage, it's been around since I started flying over 20 years ago. This has nothing to do with any administration, this has to do with bureaucrats scratching for money to run their fiefdoms. These are people with long term/career agendas in government outside the purview of the public/political arena.

Presidents don't make this stuff up, bureaucrats do.

Here is the deal dude! Obama wants to increase taxes on many of us who work. He has no plan to tax the aprox. 45% of the population who paid no federal income tax last year. I see user fees as another tax.

 

[Bob Noel]

CBS Sunday Morning show this morning had a story about the IRS and taxes. 15% of taxpayers cheat. The shortfall runs several trillion (that's with a "T") over the last decade.

The tax code is now 5300 pages. Started in 1913 with 27.

5300? I believe you are short by a factor of 3.

 

[Gmaper]

5300? I believe you are short by a factor of 3.

Here is a graphic that I captured from the CBS Sunday Morning website. I'm not sure what they are trying to say because after reading your comment I did a search and indeed there are suggestions that it is 60,000 pages. But can TV be wrong?

 

[ClimbnSink]

Here is the deal dude! Obama wants to increase taxes on many of us who work. He has no plan to tax the aprox. 45% of the population who paid no federal income tax last year. I see user fees as another tax.

The president is a temp employee, user fees come from pro bureaucrats. Unelected, untouchable and iable to do more harm than a president. YEah democracy.

 

[Henning]

Then again, I can't vote for Corporatism either. Nor can I vote for Libertarianism. Finally, calling the Democratic party far left is a joke too. If anything, we're stuck with a a pair of right-wing parties where the legislators are only concerned with themselves and their perks.

 

[Henning]

Here is the deal dude! Obama wants to increase taxes on many of us who work. He has no plan to tax the aprox. 45% of the population who paid no federal income tax last year. I see user fees as another tax.

Right, and I don't disagree about corporations not having to pay their fair share, but industry won the Civil War and we're too stupid to see why the struggles of the past century and a half have been fought.

 

[dennyleeb]

Right, and I don't disagree about corporations not having to pay their fair share, but industry won the Civil War and we're too stupid to see why the struggles of the past century and a half have been fought.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

The only one not "paying their fair share" is the govt. What we need to do is chop 3/4 of the govt, anytime these losers ask for more money I laugh, what happened to them serving the people, serving and leaching are two diffrent things.

 

[MadseasoN]

I notice that TX changed their fee structure on vehicles. It appears to me that some people will pay more, some less. If you are one of those who has to pay more will you quit driving?

I sure wish there was a way to pay for facilities and services without having to resort to fees or the dreaded "t" word, taxes.

No. I HAVE to drive. I don't HAVE to fly airplanes.

Those people with vehicles over 6000lbs will pay more. My vehicle registration is $50 per year. I think that's fair considering how much I drive. If it were $50 per day then yeah, I'd quit driving.

 

[Dr. O]

A fascinating topic..
Let us think a moment about the system...
Who does ATC benefit? It isn't me, I don't need them... GPS/chart/eyeballs gets me where I want to go and Unicom lets me do traffic avoidance with other aircraft in the airport traffic area... Yet I am taxed for this massive ATC system every time I buy fuel...
It isn't needed for any small aircraft that is flying VFR - these pilots don't need ATC to go from Pudunk to Smallville for a $200 hamburger, yet they are taxed even when not using the system..
So, who is it?
It is primarily the airlines that want/need/demand ATC to funnel their cash cow machines in and out of massive hub airports without scratching the paint...
It is secondarily business that also needs an ATC to guide their Gulfstreams in and out of these hubs and secondary Class B and C destinations..
And it is the military that needs ATC to keep the innocents out of the way of their Viper flights
So let those who demand the system pay for it...

Now, this is complicated by the fact that no government bureaucracy will ever stop expanding... It is the law of the jungle, grow or die... So the FAA continually finds the "need" for more rules, for more airports to have a control tower, for more airspace to be under positive control, for more reports to be filed (and filed away unread)... Then they sit back and say, "See how much it costs US to provide You with our services. You need to pay your fair share." And they are institutionally blind to the fact that they are shoving the "services" onto people who didn't need or want them in the first place and who are powerless to say no...

 

[Henning]

A fascinating topic..
Let us think a moment about the system...
Who does ATC benefit? It isn't me, I don't need them... GPS/chart/eyeballs gets me where I want to go and Unicom lets me do traffic avoidance with other aircraft in the airport traffic area... Yet I am taxed for this massive ATC system every time I buy fuel...
It isn't needed for any small aircraft that is flying VFR - these pilots don't need ATC to go from Pudunk to Smallville for a $200 hamburger, yet they are taxed even when not using the system..
So, who is it?
It is primarily the airlines that want/need/demand ATC to funnel their cash cow machines in and out of massive hub airports without scratching the paint...
It is secondarily business that also needs an ATC to guide their Gulfstreams in and out of these hubs and secondary Class B and C destinations..
And it is the military that needs ATC to keep the innocents out of the way of their Viper flights
So let those who demand the system pay for it...

Now, this is complicated by the fact that no government bureaucracy will ever stop expanding... It is the law of the jungle, grow or die... So the FAA continually finds the "need" for more rules, for more airports to have a control tower, for more airspace to be under positive control, for more reports to be filed (and filed away unread)... Then they sit back and say, "See how much it costs US to provide You with our services. You need to pay your fair share." And they are institutionally blind to the fact that they are shoving the "services" onto people who didn't need or want them in the first place and who are powerless to say no...

Amen brother, say it. I'm the same. I would rather have a user fee schedule than fuel tax, I use the system as a courtesy to the system. Good thing is that system operators (ATC) realize and appreciate this and treat me well accordingly. I fly VFR, I take responsibility for all my own navigation and separation, while considering their requests and suggestions; typically heeding the requests or suggestion, sometimes taking options for weather, terrain, and traffic avoidance. In return ATC keeps me current on information and I do the same. "9SA are you aware of rising terrain in front of you?" "Yes ma'am, I have a path through the passes in the clear and visual." "69SA, Suggest right 60 degree turn for weather avoidance.""Negative ma'am, that would turn me under and into a big black cloud on the other side of the front. My path ahead is light and much higher cover" "6KA, be advised that traffic 20 miles south reports clear clear ahead with severe weather in your path, suggest vector of 075 for weather avoidance." I pay for a lot of system that I don't use to benefit from. I'd be better off with a user fee structure rather than fuel tax, but then I would not be paying my share for infrastructure I use. I prefer use and consumption taxes, any conservative minded person should. With a 406 device, my participation with ATC is more give than get; but I'm good with that. I'm confident in my abilities to fulfill my missions with no or minimal fees depending on what they do with fuel tax. I am good with status quo. Aviation safety is worth the cost of the avionics, I am self sufficient 1200 legal.

 

[jnmeade]

I'd fly whatever I could afford. Probably the government would hold it against any of us who got into trouble and they thought we neglected to ask for information we'd have to pay for.

 

[Henning]

OTOH, I am also good with getting rid of the fuel tax and going pure user fee on percentage of cost. Any way you want to go about it, pick a way to calculate comparative value. Here is my proposal: If you qualify under business / personal (Pt 91) use rules, you get the system tax free. If you intend a cash profit you pay for services used through a transponder.

 

[steingar]

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Unfortunately, to collect user fees, one needs a bureaucracy. The user fees must then pay for the bureaucracy, in addition to what they were originally supposed to pay for. As people drop out because of the fees, those remaining have to pay more to cover the costs. It's happened before elsewhere, and there is no reason to think that such an escalation won't happen here if such fees are instituted.

The sad thing is I doubt anyone here would complain about an increase in the fuel tax. It's transparent and doesn't need a bureaucracy, and is thus more efficient. The one thing that hasn't yet been proposed by anyone.

 

[Gmaper]

Unfortunately, to collect user fees, one needs a bureaucracy. The user fees must then pay for the bureaucracy, in addition to what they were originally supposed to pay for. As people drop out because of the fees, those remaining have to pay more to cover the costs. It's happened before elsewhere, and there is no reason to think that such an escalation won't happen here if such fees are instituted.

The sad thing is I doubt anyone here would complain about an increase in the fuel tax. It's transparent and doesn't need a bureaucracy, and is thus more efficient. The one thing that hasn't yet been proposed by anyone.

You are not likely to see any Congressman or Senator propose a TAX INCREASE no matter how much sense it makes.

 

[Anthony]

You are not likely to see any Congressman or Senator propose a TAX INCREASE no matter how much sense it makes.

Cuts in Non-essential government spending make sense, not higher tax rates.

 

[Henning]

Cuts in Non-essential government spending make sense, not higher tax rates.

So, privatize ATC then and let everybody for services individually, including ticketed passengers?

 

[steingar]

So, privatize ATC then and let everybody for services individually, including ticketed passengers?

Privatization often works wonders in a competitive environment. When there are only one or two players, not so much.