How to troubleshoot computer crashes.

[Let'sgoflying!]

Still not done fixing things. I haven't posted about this one before.

Its a work computer. About 6yrs old, a Gateway with Windows ME. It has worked fine for the last 4 years. We use it to run Word, Excel, QB's only, it is networked through a cat5 cable to one other computer... no internet access.

For the last month it has occasionally, and with now daily frequency, refused to start up on the first one or two tries. The screen would be one of: black, or slightly blue, or slightly blue with a non-movable arrow cursor present, or it will display the screen of death, in which one option is to return to last known good config. If I can get the last one, it will respond and start normally. Or sometimes a reboot (holding down the power button til it quits, wait, then restart) will get it going.

I hesitate to have the local pundits work on it just because they always want to wipe it clean and reinstall the OS and all programs... and I think I will lose QB's when we do this (long story there which I don't understand).
Any ideas are welcome. If starting from a clean harddrive and reinstalling is the way to go, I can take it - let me know.

 

[jesse]

If starting from a clean harddrive and reinstalling is the way to go, I can take it - let me know.

Sometimes it may be a very viable option. It comes down to how important it is to have it working in it's current state...Anything is fixable, sometimes though the amount of work exceeds the benefit of not reinstalling.

Now. The *very* first thing I caught in your post is that you have a Gateway that shipped with Windows ME. Does it have an AMD processor or an Intel processor?

There was a very popular model of Gateway's that shipped with Windows ME and an AMD processor that had a pretty major motherboard issue. Basically the capicitors will explode.

See the two cylinders. The one on the left has failed. The one on the right is good. So if you have the AMD processor the very first thing you sohuld do is remove the side cover and look for this. If you see failed capicitors you wil need a new motherboard. (Basically I would rather the problem be this. Usually you can pick up a good board on E-bay for about $30 and then just swap it.. If you get the same board, no software changes needed! )


Now. If that isn't your issue, You really still should troubleshoot if it is hardware or software.

The first piece of hardware on the list that will cause very strange problems is memory. A good way to test this is with a program called MemTest86. It is free http://www.memtest86.com/memtest86-3.2.iso.zip This is an ISO file, simply have your favorite CD burning program burn it.. then you can stick it in the gateway and boot off of it. I would let it run for at least 4 hours or more. .THe longer the better, see if it reports any failures.. If it does, replace your memory.

From here it could be a ton of things, from spyware to a virus, to a simple configuration or driver issue. I would first boot into Safemode (press F8 as soon as windows starts, select safemode).. .Then run a spyware and virus scan.

Really it's hard to tell you much more without seeing it. But hopefully I've given you a good place to start.

What I would always tell customers is that I can fix any windows installation, the question is how much is it worth to them. It may cost $300 to fix it, Or I can simply reinstall it for $60. For some people it was worth it, for others it was not. If reinstalling really isn't a big deal it would be your "easiest" option.

 

[Brian Austin]

While it's possibly a driver issue (unlikely but possible), this sounds more like hardware problems since it won't even start.

It could be a power supply problem (fairly easy fix) or motherboard issue (a little more major). Unless you hit eBay, I doubt you'll find a replacement board for your processor. Too old.

Personally, if this was a work computer and required for generating income (like with QB ), I'd replace the box with a newer computer, move the hard drive over and copy the files. You'll get a new OS, more reliable hardware and a faster system. It doesn't need to be a speed demon. If you spend $400 to pick one up, it would save you that much over a year, I'd bet.

Good luck.

 

[fgcason]

If you see failed capicitors you wil need a new motherboard. (Basically I would rather the problem be this. Usually you can pick up a good board on E-bay for about $30 and then just swap it.. If you get the same board, no software changes needed! )

BTDT with different machines and devices of all sorts. When capacitors finally give out over time, they usually just open up electrically instead of damaging something. I have several things on their 4th or 5th life due to that exact problem. (Discrete components nowadays are just plain old junk and not built to last thus a much higher failure rate than older stuff)

Those two capacitors are probably $1-$2 a pop plus 5 minutes with a pencil soldering iron. Just watch polarity when swapping them out.

Really it's hard to tell you much more without seeing it.

Yep. Or at least without more debugging. Lots of other things could be causing the problem. Need more analysis of the actual problem first.

 

[jesse]

Those two capacitors are probably $1-$2 a pop plus 5 minutes with a pencil soldering iron. Just watch polarity when swapping them out.

You could do that too.

Usually it's just an absolute mess with about every capacitor on the board exploded. (with this AMD series of gateways that would do this) The standard procedure has just always been swap the motherboard. The labor exceeds the cost of a new one replacing all of them.

But it's a different story if he is comfortable soldering it.

 

[mikea]

Those X topped caps got into a lot of things and are causing trouble. They are in the first couple of production runs of the Apple iMac G5. I think they just killed my 20" NEC monitor at home.

http://www.badcaps.com

I heard that it's a case of industrial espionage gone wrong. The company stole the formula for the electrolyte from a competitor - and got the recipe wrong.

 

[Skip Miller]

First thing you do when you get the computer to boot, is get your data off it! Then follow the advice of others.

-Skip

 

[gismo]

Those X topped caps got into a lot of things and are causing trouble. They are in the first couple of production runs of the Apple iMac G5. I think they just killed my 20" NEC monitor at home.

We had the same problem on some of the boards used by my company last year. The problem went way beyond PC motherboards.

On a marginally related note, the very first commercial product I designed (back when I was in high school) had a capacitor that failed after about three months of operation in the same way (explosion). The cap wasn't defective, I had miscalculated the voltage across it and the excessive voltage destroyed the electrolyte gradually. Talk about embarrassing!

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I will try to eyeball the MB this week. Frankly I running out of steam putting out all the fires that broken stuff is causing for me. There is a computer repair guy near here, I am talking to him.

Skip I am way ahead of you, backups done!

Someone mentioned viruses and spyware. I reiterate: the computer does not connect to the net. It is physically isolated. No wireless, no phone plug.

I have to wonder if it is some kind of hardware issue as the room is cool and it seems to do much better after a few tries at starting it... as if getting a chance to warm up fixes it. Maybe I will take the side off and put the space heater on it -- when it is all at 75F see, if it starts right up.

Wow I'm not the type to cry to a lawyer for help but if there ever was a case for a class action! That Gateway gave me great grief at the start, had them replacing the mother board, both drives, several other components over weeks of phone calls... and it turned out that it was the stupid ME software that was causing all the problems. It has worked fine since they did a work-around. And now you are telling me their is a hardware problem.
I notice the Gateway Country Store disappeared soon after we got ours.

It depends on my time availability and stress level as to what I do. I suppose I can solder a cap in, heck after the laptop issue that should be a breeze!

That idea of moving the harddrive over... Think I could get just any old computer and unplug, replug the HD and I would be good to go?

I am mainly concerned about the QBooks.
See, we bought the program and did the updates, up to "R5P". Then I decided they were being too greedy with the undates and stopped doing them. So the download is no longer available to bring a computer up the the R5P level. If I have to reinstall QB, it is possible I won't be able to get the update that the host computer has and then they will be incompatible.

PS What Changed? How can configurations change? I haven't done anything except print out my reports, pay my bills, and payroll each week. Week in, week out the exact same things. No new programs, no new hardware, nobody ever inserts media into the drives. Power surges? 1's and 0's reverting spontaneously?

 

[fgcason]

On a marginally related note, the very first commercial product I designed (back when I was in high school) had a capacitor that failed after about three months of operation in the same way (explosion). The cap wasn't defective, I had miscalculated the voltage across it and the excessive voltage destroyed the electrolyte gradually. Talk about embarrassing!

Firecrackers. BTDT.

Have you ever seen the results of a paint can size capacitor mounted in the bottom of a cabinet size electronics rack case go kaboom? That happened in the accelerator lab at school one afternoon. It's kind of like a mortar going off. Not good. Really bad actually.

 

[Brian Austin]

PS What Changed? How can configurations change? I haven't done anything except print out my reports, pay my bills, and payroll each week. Week in, week out the exact same things. No new programs, no new hardware, nobody ever inserts media into the drives. Power surges? 1's and 0's reverting spontaneously?

Dave, these things don't last forever. I count on three years for any computer or server. After that, I'm on borrowed time. It's served me well for reliability planning. I rarely go down and have planned upgrades to budget.

Heat, surges, movement of fans, hard drives, etc., all contribute to eventual failure. They weren't designed to last as long as some of them do.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Thanks Brian. I guess I can accept that our economy is driven by the production of stuff that will break after a ridiculously small period of time.
What I was getting at was, in the scale of electrons, or maybe - information packets; what actually changes to make a computer do something a different way from day to day? Maybe that answer is not available to us.
I can imagine a 1 on a hardrive flipping to a 0 'spontaneously', maybe because of static electricity or power surges.

I have said in the past, why not make all harddrives in threes? Constantly run a comparison of all three. When one gets a defect, it can be instantly and automatically corrected by comparison to the correct pair.

 

[SCCutler]

Thanks Brian. I guess I can accept that our economy is driven by the production of stuff that will break after a ridiculously small period of time.
What I was getting at was, in the scale of electrons, or maybe - information packets; what actually changes to make a computer do something a different way from day to day? Maybe that answer is not available to us.
I can imagine a 1 on a hardrive flipping to a 0 'spontaneously', maybe because of static electricity or power surges.

I have said in the past, why not make all harddrives in threes? Constantly run a comparison of all three. When one gets a defect, it can be instantly and automatically corrected by comparison to the correct pair.

Dave, that's a great idea! Here's what you should call it: RAID 5.

Oh wait, they're already doing that.

Seriously, if you decide to replace your computer (which I think is a good idea), you can easily build a computer with an on-board raid controller, and do just what you have described, and it provides a very satisfying degree of redundancy. I have raid 5 on my (big, honkin') Compaq server.

And by the way, you are not the only one who thinks that QB's upgrade policy ("we'll stop supporting the old software and won't even sell you the tax tablesany more either..."), sucks big 'uns.

You might check with the computer guy about how you can transfer the program from one box to another, see if it can be done without having to do a complete reinstall.

 

[Brian Austin]

What I was getting at was, in the scale of electrons, or maybe - information packets; what actually changes to make a computer do something a different way from day to day? Maybe that answer is not available to us.
I can imagine a 1 on a hardrive flipping to a 0 'spontaneously', maybe because of static electricity or power surges.

Heat kills electronics more than anything. Most of the other stuff is 'wear' issues, like bushings or bearings on hard drive spindles.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I put a heater on it twice now and each time, it started up normally.

The room might get to 58F in the mornings, its on a N wall.

Next I might try spot heating individual components to ID the culprit, what do you think of that? Maybe a hair dryer on one board at a time then do a start up?
There is one large board sitting vertically and about 5 smaller boards attached to it horizontally. Which is most likely? Need a picture?


PS none of the capacitors looked diseased.

 

[jesse]

There is one large board sitting vertically and about 5 smaller boards attached to it horizontally. Which is most likely? Need a picture?

In order for the computer to POST (power on self test) you need:

1.) Motherboard
2.) Memory
3.) Processor
4.) Video Card (not really required but makes troubleshooting easier .. this is what your monitor plugs into)

So basically the one large vertical board is the motherboard. The memory will look like:

The processor is the thing under the large fan. Leave that alone.

Video card is what the monitor plugs into.

It could be *any* one of those that would cause the issue.
I've seen motherboard, I've seen processor.

Those motherboards though are worthless; I'd suspect it before anything else.

 

[Brian Austin]

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=B110249A&s=dhs

This would be a lot easier in the long run...

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=B110249A&s=dhs
This would be a lot easier in the long run...

aaugghhh! That smarts me Scottish ancestry! Never buy new that which ye can patch up with duct tape and baling wire!

I know, I know you are probably right. But if I buy new, I am going to have to spend a grand on Quickbooks, I bet.

Remember, I have that older version (2001), and if I have to reload the disk, it will reload the OLD version, without the patch, and it won't be able to read my new format data. I have the patch but ??? will it work??? If it doesn't, how many days/weeks will I be off-line?
Can I just pop the harddrive out of this computer, and snap it into a new Dell and carry on?

Jesse what if I remove all cards from the cold-soaked machine, and just heat the motherboard, then reinstall the cards and try a restart?

Thanks you guys, for your help.

 

[Brian Austin]

Remember, I have that older version (2001), and if I have to reload the disk, it will reload the OLD version, without the patch, and it won't be able to read my new format data. I have the patch but ??? will it work??? If it doesn't, how many days/weeks will I be off-line?
Can I just pop the harddrive out of this computer, and snap it into a new Dell and carry on?

Due to the way Windows handles dlls and assorted support files, it's really better to reinstall the application. If you have the original disks and copies of the patch files, though, this shouldn't be a big deal. Even copying them off of your old hard drive to the new shouldn't be a big issue, especially with a little filesharing network.

It CAN be done manually with registering dlls and moving files around but it's not for the faint of heart.

Something to consider: buying NOW and attempting all of this while the old one is still functional gives you something few upgraders have the luxury of: TIME. You'll have a working system to copy files, etc., from as you use it while bringing the new system online in a convenient manner (instead of desperately trying to get it running at tax time).

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Something to consider: buying NOW and attempting all of this while the old one is still functional gives you something few upgraders have the luxury of: TIME. You'll have a working system to copy files, etc., from as you use it while bringing the new system online in a convenient manner (instead of desperately trying to get it running at tax time).

In actuality I have the program running safely on the reception computer. The computer acting up is the slave computer in the office. I also have the program running on two laptops at home, can you tell I am a suspenders and belts type? BUT I still find myself in this problem! Your suggesting is being weighed... quite heavily. Thanks.

 

[Brian Austin]

In actuality I have the program running safely on the reception computer. The computer acting up is the slave computer in the office. I also have the program running on two laptops at home, can you tell I am a suspenders and belts type? BUT I still find myself in this problem! Your suggesting is being weighed... quite heavily. Thanks.

Ah, well, then you're covered fairly well. I wouldn't be quite so worried then. I thought that was your only QB copy and option!

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

New data:
I took out all the cards and left only the mb, drives and harddrive in place. I put the heater on the mb heating up the whole works really, and left all 5 cards in the refrigerator.
Then after several hours I reinstalled the cards quick like and started it.
It started right up.
So.. I think it is the mb. If it was the power supply or harddisk, I doubt it would work flawlessly as it does, once started up.

I think heating the mb is improving some component. (I also don't think I have much time with said component.)

Hey. I did notice a quarter-sized battery on the mb. Think the heat is helping the battery and that is the problem component?

Maybe I will heat the battery up, reinstall and start it up.

 

[jesse]

Hey. I did notice a quarter-sized battery on the mb. Think the heat is helping the battery and that is the problem component?

Maybe I will heat the battery up, reinstall and start it up.

You don't need the battery for it to boot up.

The battery does two things. It powers the volitale memory for the CMOS settings.

It also runs the hardware clock.

 

[Henning]

Still not done fixing things. I haven't posted about this one before.

Its a work computer. About 6yrs old, a Gateway with Windows ME. It has worked fine for the last 4 years. We use it to run Word, Excel, QB's only, it is networked through a cat5 cable to one other computer... no internet access.

For the last month it has occasionally, and with now daily frequency, refused to start up on the first one or two tries. The screen would be one of: black, or slightly blue, or slightly blue with a non-movable arrow cursor present, or it will display the screen of death, in which one option is to return to last known good config. If I can get the last one, it will respond and start normally. Or sometimes a reboot (holding down the power button til it quits, wait, then restart) will get it going.

I hesitate to have the local pundits work on it just because they always want to wipe it clean and reinstall the OS and all programs... and I think I will lose QB's when we do this (long story there which I don't understand).
Any ideas are welcome. If starting from a clean harddrive and reinstalling is the way to go, I can take it - let me know.

Me, I'm no geek, but from the sounds of it, I'd buy a new box and pull that HD and pop it into the # 2 spot on the cable. The new box will pick it up and you'll be able to copy your critical files to the new HD. I've never seen a situation in a commercial application where it pays to mess with a computer thats > 3 years old. The only thing of value there is the data contained on the drive, so get the drive out of the bad environment before it gets corrupted somehow. Plus you'll get XP, I never had much luck with ME.

 

[Graueradler]

I am definitely not a computer geek but I understood that just moving the hard drive or drives to the new computer in the same position that they were in the old one or copying the HDs to the corresponding drives on the new computer basically left you with the same computer but all new hardware (except any relocated HDs) so updated programs wouldn't be an issue. Am I wrong? If the glitch isn't in the data on the HD, then you would be in good shape.

 

[jesse]

I am definitely not a computer geek but I understood that just moving the hard drive or drives to the new computer in the same position that they were in the old one or copying the HDs to the corresponding drives on the new computer basically left you with the same computer but all new hardware (except any relocated HDs) so updated programs wouldn't be an issue. Am I wrong? If the glitch isn't in the data on the HD, then you would be in good shape.

If you just swap hard drives with different hardware you are going to have ALL kinds of headaches.

It's at least the win 9x kernel (windows me) so you could possibly fix the issues, and eventually get a workable operating system but it's not going to be a walk in the park.

It's going to try to load several drivers on bootup such as the drivers for your IDE controller, which may fail if it's a different controller..Followed by failure of the bootup.

If you tried this with Windows XP it is not a happy camper of major hardware changes due to it's anti-piracy scheme. It'll simply "lock" itself and give an activation error IF it even boots. Chances are it wouldn't even boot.


You also can't just install the ahrd drive in another computer and run the Quickbooks program. As it is dependant on many entries being made in your windows registry during install along with many dll's and other files being around your system that it installed.

basically if you want to switch major hardware. you'll need to reinstall windows on it.. Then reinstall the program.. THEN use the data files from quickbooks that you backed up before you started this

 

[Greebo]

Jesse is absolutely right. The only way you can safely swap hard drives between computers and avoid issues is when the new and old computer are identical with regard to hardware.

You can *TRY* to cheat - sometimes it works - mainly if you go with very minor changes like a slight CPU upgrade or something like that - but if you're doing major changes like going from a P3 to a P4 dual core or worse, an AMD X2 64, you WILL reinstall windows for it to work.

Trust me. I just went through this, and I knew the risks before I started.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I hate bullet-biting. Thanks guys.
Hey, is the battery idea just a silly dream?

 

[jesse]

I hate bullet-biting. Thanks guys.
Hey, is the battery idea just a silly dream?

You don't need the battery for it to boot up.

The battery does two things. It powers the volitale memory for the CMOS settings.

It also runs the hardware clock.

With a failed battery worse case you have to set a few bios settings on boot and your clock will be wrong.

It won't cause it not to boot.