How to torture your students

jason

jason

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Jason W (FlyNE)
I had this exchange with a friend of mine on facebook tonight. I got a kick out of the cruelty of his CFII.


my friend said:
Good flight tonight! Lots of wind and darkness, but approaches were good! To add to the workload, instructor made me tell him when I heard a 2 on the radio! :)
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me said:
Wow, that's a really cool idea. I'll need to pass that along to my CFII friends. They love new ways of torturing their students.
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my friend said:
Ok... I'll post this before he does. When I heard a 2, he made me beep. When I heard the word "Delta", I had to moo. He was having WAY too much fun with me! It was a riot!
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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
Hope the above post from the OP was posted partly in jest, but sorry, my reaction as a student in this situation would be:

See that handle on your right..now lift it up, thats good, another notch..push it all the way back to the most aft detent..open the door..lean out..how about a steep turn to the right?

Distractions with a purpose for working through cockpit management, yes... craziness...no.
Just my 2 cents as a newly minted pilot
 
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I'm amused. It's the "pat your head and rub your tummy" game, but with IFR.

I think the idea is, if you have enough brain wattage left on the approach to play these games, you're in fine shape with your own attention management, and will be able to manage your priorities, distractions, and workload -- and isn't that what single-pilot IFR is all about?

Now if I moo'ed, foot stomped, clapped and beeped my way off the ILS and into the land of ATC "teacher voice", I'd be strangling the CFII at the debrief.. but I like the out-of-the-box thinking.

I won't be telling my CFIs this trick anytime soon, however. :D
 
It is an exercise in being able to multi-task. If you still have the ability to listen for your call sign on the radio, which will definitely happen in IFR, and, quite often, approaches, and you can still focus on the approach and what is happening around you, you are getting closer to finish. This is an important task, and, in my opinion, a creative way to bring it out. There would be appropriate times for it, though. (As in not towards the beginning of training.)
 
I like that idea. Being able to listen to multiple conversations and pick out the parts relevant to you is an important part of IFR.

How often do you find yourself flying along in IMC, inputting your new routing into your GPS, having to fly the plane, and need to pick up when they call you? Pretty often - last night I was doing that, plus I had the satellite radio on while flying in moderate precip and turbulence.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
It's an exercise in stupidity and playing childish games. Sorry, there's no teaching value here at all.
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Agreed.

(Yeah, I know -- it's a first).

If the point is testing the student's ability to multi-task, then increase the real-world difficulty.

It's as easy as "Keep the speed up."

My guess is if the instructor has to look for dumb things to use as distractions, the student's either beyond ready or they're not flying in actual.
 
Or you're flying in an area where there's not a lot going on.

IFR flight around Williamsport is a lot different than IFR flight around NY, BOS, etc. It's a rare day when NY Center (off of Williamsport) is actually busy... anywhere near as busy as NY Approach, BOS Approach, or BOS Center (near Boston). Even PIT Approach I've never found to have a lot going on. Last night coming out of Manchester, BOS Approach and Center were pretty busy (mostly with everyone deviating around weather).

May not be the best way of teaching it, but good to train the brain to have a lot going on.
 
Try some 36's. Your 34's appear to be a bit tight.

DutchessFlier said:
Hope the above post from the OP was posted partly in jest, but sorry, my reaction as a student in this situation would be:

See that handle on your right..now lift it up, thats good, another notch..push it all the way back to the most aft detent..open the door..lean out..how about a steep turn to the right?

Distractions with a purpose for working through cockpit management, yes... craziness...no.
Just my 2 cents as a newly minted pilot
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Ted DuPuis said:
Or you're flying in an area where there's not a lot going on.
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Good point -- some places are downright quiet (though PIT can get pretty busy some afternoons).

Still, there are some many other realistic distractions that can be added to up the workload -- last minute holds, multiple routing changes, approaches at various speeds, last moment wind shift causing a straight-in to become a circling approach, instrument malfunctions, deer on the runway -- whatever -- that Basic Training type games would seem to be a waste of valuable training time.

Of course every student is different and a good instructor can vary the program to the student, so I suppose a case can be made for such an activity.

But I got my IR flying in as much IMC as possible and the workload was high enough without various made-up games.

:dunno:
 
dmccormack said:
Good point -- some places are downright quiet (though PIT can get pretty busy some afternoons).
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Yeah, I've normally gone through PIT on weekends, which is obviously less busy. However compared to NY or BOS on comparable weekends, it was still quiet in comparison. I definitely like the fact that PIT pretty much lets me go direct anywhere I want. Good luck getting that from BOS or NY.

Still, there are some many other realistic distractions that can be added to up the workload -- last minute holds, multiple routing changes, approaches at various speeds, last moment wind shift causing a straight-in to become a circling approach, instrument malfunctions, deer on the runway -- whatever -- that Basic Training type games would seem to be a waste of valuable training time.
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Right, and those are all valuable training tools and probably better than the games, but if you're flying along in flight for real and you aren't given any routing changes, doing something to help keep the brain doing multiple things is good. I'll pretty much always have the music on (and I set it so it doesn't mute when radio calls come in), and I'll also listen to the ATIS/ASOS/AWOS on the #2 COM with the #1 on whoever I'm talking to. Often times that means two audio streams coming in at the same time, and being able to listen to both, get the useful information, and then stop and respond if it's for you is a good skill. Probably more realistic. Turning the music on is probably a good first distraction, especially if you're like me and you'll want to have it on anyway.

But I got my IR flying in as much IMC as possible and the workload was high enough without various made-up games.
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Me too, but now you've surely gained better multi-tasking ability, right? I think the point here is to try to foster that a bit earlier. The first few times you go into actual by yourself (or the first time you've done it in the spring if you've had to go all winter without actual) keep you busy enough. To me, training should push you further than you're likely to need to be, so that when it happens for real and you don't have the instructor there as your safety net, it's not as big of a deal.
 
dmccormack said:
Agreed.

(Yeah, I know -- it's a first).

If the point is testing the student's ability to multi-task, then increase the real-world difficulty.

It's as easy as "Keep the speed up."

My guess is if the instructor has to look for dumb things to use as distractions, the student's either beyond ready or they're not flying in actual.
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I disagree.

First of all, a good instructor knows their student. I'm sure the instructor wouldn't have played this "game" if he knew that the student had a stick up his a** (like some apparently do).

While an unexpected hold may increase the work load at one point in the flight doing what this instructor did increased the work load every time a radio transmission was made on frequency. There is incredible value in knowing that when the student is saturated with flying the aircraft they are still able to not only listen to the radio but understand what is being said. For instance, wouldn't it be nice to know that even when they're in actual and flying the GPS 27 into Podunk they still have the capacity to listen to the VFR traffic in the pattern and piece together the flow of traffic into the runway?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Yeah, I've normally gone through PIT on weekends, which is obviously less busy. However compared to NY or BOS on comparable weekends, it was still quiet in comparison. I definitely like the fact that PIT pretty much lets me go direct anywhere I want. Good luck getting that from BOS or NY.
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Sometimes. Every once in a while I get routing heading east that is WAY off -- this Sunday, for instance, we were sent to TON --> RAV --> LRP --> DQO --> 33N (with 5 -- yes five -- routing changes en route). It added at least 25 minutes to what should have been a 1:30 flight. :nonod:

The return flight was about as direct as possible.

Ted DuPuis said:
Me too, but now you've surely gained better multi-tasking ability, right? I think the point here is to try to foster that a bit earlier. The first few times you go into actual by yourself (or the first time you've done it in the spring if you've had to go all winter without actual) keep you busy enough. To me, training should push you further than you're likely to need to be, so that when it happens for real and you don't have the instructor there as your safety net, it's not as big of a deal.
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Honestly that wasn't an issue for me. During Armor basic the lead tactics instructor was railing on -- "You're gonna have three frequencies on at the same time! Plus your intercom! And you're going to have to be able to listen to each and reply to each in a timely manner!"

I leaned to the Lieutenant next to me and said, "I have three kids -- what's the big deal?"

I have had radio-shy students. I find that once they master the physical aspects of flight the radio part comes much easier (something about the brain not being able to process the motor control commands consciously while simultaneously listening, perhaps?)
 
FlyNE said:
For instance, wouldn't it be nice to know that even when they're in actual and flying the GPS 27 into Podunk they still have the capacity to listen to the VFR traffic in the pattern and piece together the flow of traffic into the runway?
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It certainly would be -- but the human skill of attenuation is linked to something the mind is "tuned" to -- your name, for example.

Notice how you can pick out your tail number when everything else is tuned out?

That comes with practice using specific cues that become yours. The number "two," for example, would have some meaning perhaps, but only short term.

Much better to practice using things that matter.

That said, you'll see in my follow up post that I agree that a good instructor adapts to his/her student.

But this particular methodology is no Marvel Mystery Oil.
 
The point of this exercise was not to beep or moo or make the Student feel like a schumck it was just to add extra balls to juggle. IMHO its just another inexpensive way to show how many things you may have to deal with in IMC. IR training often can't give you everything you would get in actual including actual. Unfortunatly I got very little actual during my training not for lack of wanting it or a reluctant CFI but due to Ice and TS later in the training. Throwing in an unexpected hold, great idea if possible in the enviornment in which you are training, Simulated instrument failure really good idea but the radio does not stop chatter right away when your AI goes bottoms up.
 
AdamZ said:
The point of this exercise was not to beep or moo or make the Student feel like a schumck it was just to add extra balls to juggle.
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Why not use this time to teach situational awareness? Ask the student to show you on his approach plate his current position, ask him the position of the last aircraft that checked in, have him estimate his time to cross the FAP, ask him his initial heading and altitude on the miss.

This all has real world meaning and applies to the task at hand.
 
I agree that you've got to know the student if you're going to play that kind of game because, as we can see here, it has a high potential of ****ing someone off.

I think one of the better realistic distractions is to start carrying on a conversation with the student about something. I remember my CFI when I was getting my instrument did this, only it was a long time before I realized it. He would be constantly asking questions about my family and home situation. I thought he was just nosy, especially because I didn't necessarily want to talk about my personal life. Then it finally dawned on me what he was doing. :idea:

Not too long ago I was in the sim and the instructor was carrying on a conversation with me. It never even occurred to me what he was doing until he said, "That was your realistic distraction."
 
dmccormack said:
It certainly would be -- but the human skill of attenuation is linked to something the mind is "tuned" to -- your name, for example.

Notice how you can pick out your tail number when everything else is tuned out?

That comes with practice using specific cues that become yours. The number "two," for example, would have some meaning perhaps, but only short term.

Much better to practice using things that matter.

That said, you'll see in my follow up post that I agree that a good instructor adapts to his/her student.

But this particular methodology is no Marvel Mystery Oil.
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Fair enough. My apologies. I guess I could have read on and quoted somebody else in my response.

I don't disagree. It certainly isn't a Marvel Mystery Oil. It's just a tool to help the instructor turn up the heat a bit in the cockpit. If I were the student, I'd be taking it as a good sign. The instructor thinks I'm too far ahead of the airplane. Substitute "say foxtrot" for mooing and "say plus two equals four" for beeping and you make it less game like. Maybe that would be more palatable for those that didn't like the "game". Either way, there is value in having the pressure turned up every time you hear the radio crackle. Like you said, much of the time I don't even know it's there unless I hear my tail number.
 
AdamZ said:
The point of this exercise was not to beep or moo or make the Student feel like a schumck it was just to add extra balls to juggle.
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I disagree. It was more like adding a bowling pin to the balls he's already juggling. Perhaps the instructor thought it was a great idea, but I don't see as how it adds anything constructive to the learning process.
 
Everskyward said:
I agree that you've got to know the student if you're going to play that kind of game because, as we can see here, it has a high potential of ****ing someone off.

I think one of the better realistic distractions is to start carrying on a conversation with the student about something. I remember my CFI when I was getting my instrument did this, only it was a long time before I realized it. He would be constantly asking questions about my family and home situation. I thought he was just nosy, especially because I didn't necessarily want to talk about my personal life. Then it finally dawned on me what he was doing. :idea:

Not too long ago I was in the sim and the instructor was carrying on a conversation with me. It never even occurred to me what he was doing until he said, "That was your realistic distraction."
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Exactly right.
 
I'm with Bryon. Situational awareness of what else is happening on the freq can save your life. While this may not be the perfect means to accomplish that goal, it's one way to get the instrument trainee to listen for things other than his/her own call sign. The instructor would, of course, have to vary the alert words, and perhaps also the responses, each flight for it to be truly effective.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm with Bryon. Situational awareness of what else is happening on the freq can save your life. While this may not be the perfect means to accomplish that goal, it's one way to get the instrument trainee to listen for things other than his/her own call sign. The instructor would, of course, have to vary the alert words, and perhaps also the responses, each flight for it to be truly effective.
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Sorry but "Mooing" is just plain dumb.

I'm sure there are some folks raised on Barney that are ok with this, but IMHO the IR is the serious rating -- you have fun after you get it. :rolleyes:

Ok... I'll post this before he does. When I heard a 2, he made me beep. When I heard the word "Delta", I had to moo. He was having WAY too much fun with me! It was a riot!
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I like it. It's a good skill to have - be able to listen for seemingly unrelated information in other conversations. Being able to do that may help you stay ahead of the plane down the line by having an idea of how ATC has routed traffic ahead of you by keying in on other call-signs ahead of you.

Seems like another way to stretch the student to the limits of mental capacity.
 
dmccormack said:
Sorry but "Mooing" is just plain dumb.

I'm sure there are some folks raised on Barney that are ok with this, but IMHO the IR is the serious rating -- you have fun after you get it. :rolleyes:
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Remind me to never fly with you and never recommend you as an instructor to anyone. If you can't have fun WHILE training, you're doing something wrong, IMHO.
 
CJones said:
Remind me to never fly with you and never recommend you as an instructor to anyone. If you can't have fun WHILE training, you're doing something wrong, IMHO.
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Dude --lighten up.

I think "mooing" is dumb.

Trust me -- I've sung the Barney song while low crawling through mud in 40 degree night and laughing my a$$ off.

It's all about the context. If you'd read the whole thread I agreed (several times now) that this might be a technique in a particular situation.

I've yet to fly with a student who wouldn't be offended or annoyed if I asked him/her to "moo."

:dunno:
 
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Torturing students is easy. Instructing them is quite difficult. It is facile to use nonsense to extract a pound of flesh, harder to think up a relevant exercise that accomplishes the same goal. The day a CFI does that to me will be the day I find a new CFI.
 
I see that some sticks are missing again. Certain people should be careful when sitting down.
 
you could always pipe in some weird al over the intercom and make the student communicate with ATC while laughing their ass off at "Confessions part 3"
 
We weren't in the cockpit, and we don't know the instructor or the student, and their relationship. This could well be the PERFECT thing for the specific situation they were in. Perhaps the student needed to relax a little bit and have some fun (remember the law of Effect). I think R&Ws suggestions of situational awareness building distractions would be a more "usual" technique useful for a wider range of situations, but every situation is unique.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Why not use this time to teach situational awareness? Ask the student to show you on his approach plate his current position, ask him the position of the last aircraft that checked in, have him estimate his time to cross the FAP, ask him his initial heading and altitude on the miss.

This all has real world meaning and applies to the task at hand.
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Point taken, and yes I can see how that may infact have been a "better" use of the student's time and flight dollars
 
tonycondon said:
you could always pipe in some weird al over the intercom and make the student communicate with ATC while laughing their ass off at "Confessions part 3"
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Naaah.. That would NEVER happen. Oh wait....
 
It sounds like a good way to practice hearing the radio. It would be especially good practice for the pilot who does not stay aware of what is going on other than inside his own airplane. I would think an extension of the exercise could be going from there to describing where the calling/called aircraft is in relation to ours and what we know about it.

FlyNE said:
I disagree.

First of all, a good instructor knows their student. I'm sure the instructor wouldn't have played this "game" if he knew that the student had a stick up his a** (like some apparently do).

While an unexpected hold may increase the work load at one point in the flight doing what this instructor did increased the work load every time a radio transmission was made on frequency. There is incredible value in knowing that when the student is saturated with flying the aircraft they are still able to not only listen to the radio but understand what is being said. For instance, wouldn't it be nice to know that even when they're in actual and flying the GPS 27 into Podunk they still have the capacity to listen to the VFR traffic in the pattern and piece together the flow of traffic into the runway?
Click to expand...

Rotor&Wing said:
Why not use this time to teach situational awareness? Ask the student to show you on his approach plate his current position, ask him the position of the last aircraft that checked in, have him estimate his time to cross the FAP, ask him his initial heading and altitude on the miss.

This all has real world meaning and applies to the task at hand.
Click to expand...

Everskyward said:
I agree that you've got to know the student if you're going to play that kind of game because, as we can see here, it has a high potential of ****ing someone off.

I think one of the better realistic distractions is to start carrying on a conversation with the student about something. I remember my CFI when I was getting my instrument did this, only it was a long time before I realized it. He would be constantly asking questions about my family and home situation. I thought he was just nosy, especially because I didn't necessarily want to talk about my personal life. Then it finally dawned on me what he was doing. :idea:

Not too long ago I was in the sim and the instructor was carrying on a conversation with me. It never even occurred to me what he was doing until he said, "That was your realistic distraction."
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I would not expect this exercise to be a realistic distraction. More of an exercise in paying attention to non-vital information.
 
steingar said:
Torturing students is easy. Instructing them is quite difficult. It is facile to use nonsense to extract a pound of flesh, harder to think up a relevant exercise that accomplishes the same goal. The day a CFI does that to me will be the day I find a new CFI.
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Excellent! :yes:
 
steingar said:
Torturing students is easy. Instructing them is quite difficult.
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I used to see this quite a bit in Army OCS -- both as Candidate (student) and later as instructor.

There were the TACs who showed up just to have "fun."

Then there those who made you sweat, but had a teaching point.

Watching from the sidelines it would be hard to tell which was which -- after all, both seemed to be making Candidates suffer.
 
It is a bit of an art. Difficulties are good in training, so long as they don't overwhelm the student. It takes good judgement on the part of an instructor to know the difference between a desirable difficulty that challenges a student and and an undesirable one that teaches nothing and causes the student to suffer. The latter category can include a trick question or one too difficult for someone at the student's level of understanding.
 
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