How to speed up a student

ARFlyer

ARFlyer

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This is not my student but a student of someone I know. This person is finishing up there Commerical certificate. So they are on our long IFR x/c part of the training. This training is for CRM and x/c time for the certificate.

Ok the student takes around 1-2 hours to do a preflight. So let's say the student arrives at 12 for a 1 pm flight. Ok that is very reasonable, thats how far out I arrive for a x/c. However you will leave closer to 2-3ish. That includes actual preflight, taking to FSS, filing an IFR flight plan and just getting ready. Most of the time it is on the longer side. You can't speed the student up because they consider it unsafe and to fast for them. The student also will get upset if you push to much. Ok I understand that but sometimes you need a quick turn around. Also after preflight and everything the student calls FSS a second time to verify everything.

Now this preflight time is at every stop on the flight.

During the flight the student follows the told flight plan extremely well. However if you change even a little part of it he/she freaks. The student has improved in this area however work is needed I have been told. So if ATC changes flight plan items or just the app at last min, the student says they told him/her xyz they should do xyz. The person is a good pilot but has their own pace it everything.

So an IFR x/c that should take let's say 5 hours, and that includes a bite to eat, takes 7+.

I asked this student if they could just jump in a plane and go around the pattern or local area for fun. Just a quick preflight because you had just flown that aircraft earlier and you have 2 hours worth of fuel. The student said nope, he/she would have to get a full FSS briefing, do their flight planning, fuel the plane back up, and do a full aircraft inspection again. I can not fault the student for any of that. They are doing everything to mitigate any risk. But also shouldn't you just be able to hop into a plane and go around the patch?

Maybe I think that this student is way to slow, but in reality it is not. Maybe I am doing it wrong and that person is doing it right. But to me this would drive me up the wall.
 
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How old is the student?

I have students like these (no flight students). What you can do is give a lesson on how to preflight, stressing flows, and how to be economical with time.

For example, it takes me about 15 minutes to do a preflight. But if I need to call for fuel or add oil, that might become 30 mins while I wait. And if I want to sump again, I need to wait longer. Solution? First thing I do when I get to the plane is check fuel and oil. If there is a need for either, I address that first. I can start the other parts of preflight while the guys come with the fuel.

Another example: sumping the gas. Don't walk around the airplane doing your checklists holding on to the cup. Do that as a separate item. The more things you have in your hand, the longer your preflight.

If he or she is worried about missing an item, there is a simple solution. At the end of the preflight, quickly go over the whole list again to make sure everything was covered, and walk around the plane. I always do that, and it take about 120 seconds.
 
spiderweb said:
How old is the student?

I have students like these (no flight students). What you can do is give a lesson on how to preflight, stressing flows, and how to be economical with time.

For example, it takes me about 15 minutes to do a preflight. But if I need to call for fuel or add oil, that might become 30 mins while I wait. And if I want to sump again, I need to wait longer. Solution? First thing I do when I get to the plane is check fuel and oil. If there is a need for either, I address that first. I can start the other parts of preflight while the guys come with the fuel.

Another example: sumping the gas. Don't walk around the airplane doing your checklists holding on to the cup. Do that as a separate item. The more things you have in your hand, the longer your preflight.

If he or she is worried about missing an item, there is a simple solution. At the end of the preflight, quickly go over the whole list again to make sure everything was covered, and walk around the plane. I always do that, and it take about 120 seconds.
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The student is my age so around 20-21.
 
I think maybe we're seeing some signs of some possible issues that go way beyond how much time it takes to preflight. Flexibility is essential in aviation, and if this person is so inflexible that "s/he freaks" if ATC assigns something other than the route or approach planned before flight, s/he isn't ready to be a Commercial Pilot. And I don't think this is something one can tell how to fix via an internet discussion board.
 
Tell them if they can't make the pace that their brain doesn't work fast enough for flying and they should take up golf. Serious about that as well, they need to know that the ability to think and judge quickly is primary element to PIC safety.

I'd give the guy a wheels up time, he misses it, I cancel him.
 
Sounds like Aspergers or autistic tendencies to me. Did the student have an IEP in high school? What did the medical say - any mental issues?

How does the student respond to situations like emergency practice? How about when you try to distract or overload the student? How about unusual attitude training? I'd like to see how the person reacts to unplanned and unforeseeable situations.
 
jnmeade said:
Sounds like Aspergers or autistic tendencies to me. Did the student have an IEP in high school? What did the medical say - any mental issues?

How does the student respond to situations like emergency practice? How about when you try to distract or overload the student? How about unusual attitude training? I'd like to see how the person reacts to unplanned and unforeseeable situations.
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The student was home schooled. I really can't say on the emergency items. From what I have heard the student just says that's unrealistic and goes on. Like if you pull the breaker for a gear malfunction the student just reaches over and pops the breaker back in. If I tried to distract him/her I bet you I would be yelled at or be talked to. Not that that would bother me, that just what would happen. But I don't know the student doesn't like passengers on the training flights or x/c. I have only used the student to practice teaching ground to. Since iam not quite done with CFI yet. Most of this is from observations from dealings on the ground and from what I have heard.
 
I'm with Ron. A certain degree of mental flexibility and adapability is required, as is the ability to say "nope, no more, that's over the line". It sounds like where this student draws "the line" is not appropriate for someone who wants to hold a commercial certificate.
 
ARFlyer said:
The student was home schooled. I really can't say on the emergency items. From what I have heard the student just says that's unrealistic and goes on. Like if you pull the breaker for a gear malfunction the student just reaches over and pops the breaker back in. If I tried to distract him/her I bet you I would be yelled at or be talked to. Not that that would bother me, that just what would happen. But I don't know the student doesn't like passengers on the training flights or x/c. I have only used the student to practice teaching ground to. Since iam not quite done with CFI yet. Most of this is from observations from dealings on the ground and from what I have heard.
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At that point we go land, I'd get out and tell him to train with someone else.
 
Some autistic people are react to life as if it were a series of scenarios. That is, they learn a response and apply the response to the situation. The wider variety of responses they learn the more they have to choose from and hopefully the more appropriate the one they apply. Also, the more likely they will recognize that a scenario might be possible and that a response might be appropriate.
So, you start out with an objective, contrive a scenario that is plausible and teach a response that is appropriate. If you do all, you may avoid losing the student's credibility. You also can define the situation such that the student can't say "this is unrealistic" because you have already given the whole scenario. It may help to use known, realistic examples, but so long as the response you want fits the scenario, the student can't gripe too bad.
I would not let the student define what is realistic. If you say there is a gear malfunction that is simulated by pulling a breaker, the student will be required to to accept it. What I would do is upfront tell the student the whole scenario - here is what I want to see you be able to do - here is the reason you are doing it. If you put it in that order, the student may have less reason to object.
In aviation, the military - it is common for people to be taught something and then be required to analyze a situation and apply their knowledge under stress. We don't get to decide if it is realistic or not and that is part of the learning process - sometimes we don't see the big picture or seeing the big picture is part of the lesson. The student needs to accept that applying one's knowledge in a situation of incomplete information is not only acceptable, it's required.
Again, reverse your process of instruction so the goal is first and then the scenario that drives it. In half of Shakespeare's comedies, the humor is because audience sees the big picture and the actors don't. You need to make sure the student sees the big picture and also how his various reactions fit in.
Here's a good example. We see raving threads about how to fly the pattern. A student like the one you describe may be fixated on flying the pattern one certain way. Go out and force the student to enter and fly the pattern many ways, just as they would be if in a towered airport. They can not deny the reality of that situation and must learn to cope with more than one solution, some of which they don't see as ideal.
I think this guy is setting himself up as an accident candidate if he thinks he can go out and fly IFR without being flexible and responsive, sometimes without understanding why ATC is giving an instruction.
Sometimes a CFI has to ask himself if he wants to share the sky with a pilot he is teaching. If the answer is no, what does the CFI do about it?
 
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Jim, that's excellent, except the guy if afflicted with such is not supposed to hold a medical.
When we decide we have a 'special needs student' what do we do with that entire quandary? Do we just STFU, teach them and hope for the best or what? What duty and responsibility does the CFI have in this?
 
1-2 hours is a long preflight. I'm still a student, but my preflight including planning, briefing, and actual preflight of the plane takes about 45 minutes. If I'm just going up in the pattern, the preflight takes like 15 minutes.

Perhaps I have too short of a preflight, but this student's is taking a bit longer than it should, in my opinion.
 
HerrGruyere said:
1-2 hours is a long preflight. I'm still a student, but my preflight including planning, briefing, and actual preflight of the plane takes about 45 minutes. If I'm just going up in the pattern, the preflight takes like 15 minutes.

Perhaps I have too short of a preflight, but this student's is taking a bit longer than it should, in my opinion.
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You're about right on for what a student should be spending.
 
I also learned (and practice and teach) that a thorough (say 30 min) preflight is necessary the first time I get in the airplane that day. If the airplane's been under my control since then, subsequent preflights are much shorter - oil, fuel (drain if more fuel has been added or other factors), flight controls, and a quick walk around looking for changes. 5-10 minutes.

I expect my students to do a full preflight even if I just flew the airplane - it's still a new airplane to THEM. But if we go have lunch, the abbreviated is fine afterwards.

Everyone has to make up their own mind and live with their own conscience when it comes to firing/reporting a student with a serious deficiency. I expect I'd ask a more experienced CFI (plenty of those around) for an independent evaluation in person of the student.
 
Is the CFI charging for his total time or hobbs time? If not already, sounds like the CFI should charge from the minute he shows up until the moment he lands. If he takes 8 hours for a 2 hour mission, then the instructor will get paid and shouldn't care how long the student takes.

On the otherhand, if he hasn't been charging for this time in the past, perhaps it will provide some motivation for the student to finish their preflight faster or tell teh instructor to show up later.
 
AirDC said:
Is the CFI charging for his total time or hobbs time? If not already, sounds like the CFI should charge from the minute he shows up until the moment he lands. If he takes 8 hours for a 2 hour mission, then the instructor will get paid and shouldn't care how long the student takes.

On the otherhand, if he hasn't been charging for this time in the past, perhaps it will provide some motivation for the student to finish their preflight faster or tell teh instructor to show up later.
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That makes it fair to the instructor time/financially however it does nothing about the quandary of the guy's fitness to fly.
 
I could see how charging him for time spent preflighting could make him speed up. It would definitely work on me.
 
PBristolJr said:
:rolleyes:
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LOL, doesn't sound too severe to me. but this may be the tip. I worked in a shop with an engineer that had serious OCD issues to the point where everything on his desk had A spot to be in. Luckily he was aware that he was off his rocker with it so we'd have fun moving things a millimeter or two forcing a complete reorganization. He explained it as "there's a voice that tells me I have to make it right or I'm filled with dread." That's severe OCD the way I see it.
 
can you imagine a true OCD pilot - gear up gear down gear up gear down...tower, can i get an even number runway?
 
bbchien said:
(?) High functioning autism vs. OCD
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This was my first thought.

I can relate with this student. While not diagnosed, I do believe that I am on the higher end of Asperger's, which is in the Autism spectrum. I am related to someone who has autism, as well. While I do have a few OCD tendencies, they are pretty minor, and my problems are more with interpersonal communications. For example, I see Kimberly's post about her gift to her flight account, and I ask questions because I want to learn. But the way I asked my questions, and perhaps didn't catch nuances that you all may have caught, I bent some people out of shape, and they all jumped on me. Why? Because I wanted to learn something.

When I want to learn something, the way my brain works, I have to go through different scenarios to make sure I have it right. Unfortunately, that offended some people on this board. There was no malice intended - I just wanted to learn, and make sure I understood, so that I don't one day end up running afoul with the FAA. Unfortunately, it seems that this place isn't so tolerant of someone who doesn't learn the same way they do.
 
I would explain that commercial operations are required to be on time and would then start building scenarios for them. Ex...you must get a corporate boss to xyz for a meeting between x time and x-15 and return him for another by y time.

In terms of the flexibility, either have a sealed envelope at the first destination that has changes the student must make or ask the FBO staff to hand the student an email saying something like x time meeting cancelled...the boss is telling you to fly to zyx airport for an opportunity
Meeting with a local government regulator.

You could also Have an envelope that says open at checkpoint abc with a divert scenario.
 
raider said:
can you imagine a true OCD pilot - gear up gear down gear up gear down...tower, can i get an even number runway?
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Well, if you look in my car, the volume on the stereo always ends in 0 or 5. So I guess if I was like that on runways, I'd be out of luck for most of them. ;)
 
I will not say I am the other extreme because I am not but I do lean in the other direction and actively work on my self-discipline with an eye toward being more thorough and diligent.

As far as the overly (in some opinions) preflight, I do not see a huge problem. As someone else said, give her (arbitrary gender selection) a wheels-up time and let her arrive as early as she feels necessary to make it. Penalize her if she does not. Charge for ALL instructor time. Minimize or eliminate stops. Point is, this is not a problem, IMO, that you need to worry about too much at this stage. Let her future employer straighten her out. Just let her know there may be a problem here for a future employer.

I do see the other issues as problems and indicators that the long preflight might just be another symptom. If she cannot handle change, then there is something wrong and perhaps she should not be flying an airplane. I would recommend that the instructor let her know, in no uncertain terms, that the ability to "think on your feet" is a required skill and if she is not willing to improve in that area then he cannot continue to work with her. If she is game to improve then he can try building up her tolerance for change by introducing small changes and coaxing here through. If she wants to improve and is willing to pay then why not try?

I do not write as a CFI, though that is where I am heading, but as someone that has taught many things to many different sorts of people, e.g. teaching survey work and heavy equipment operation to illiterate Mariel refugees for just one example.

ARFlyer said:
This is not my student but a student of someone I know. This person is finishing up there Commerical certificate. So they are on our long IFR x/c part of the training. This training is for CRM and x/c time for the certificate.

Ok the student takes around 1-2 hours to do a preflight. So let's say the student arrives at 12 for a 1 pm flight. Ok that is very reasonable, thats how far out I arrive for a x/c. However you will leave closer to 2-3ish. That includes actual preflight, taking to FSS, filing an IFR flight plan and just getting ready. Most of the time it is on the longer side. You can't speed the student up because they consider it unsafe and to fast for them. The student also will get upset if you push to much. Ok I understand that but sometimes you need a quick turn around. Also after preflight and everything the student calls FSS a second time to verify everything.

Now this preflight time is at every stop on the flight.

During the flight the student follows the told flight plan extremely well. However if you change even a little part of it he/she freaks. The student has improved in this area however work is needed I have been told. So if ATC changes flight plan items or just the app at last min, the student says they told him/her xyz they should do xyz. The person is a good pilot but has their own pace it everything.

So an IFR x/c that should take let's say 5 hours, and that includes a bite to eat, takes 7+.

I asked this student if they could just jump in a plane and go around the pattern or local area for fun. Just a quick preflight because you had just flown that aircraft earlier and you have 2 hours worth of fuel. The student said nope, he/she would have to get a full FSS briefing, do their flight planning, fuel the plane back up, and do a full aircraft inspection again. I can not fault the student for any of that. They are doing everything to mitigate any risk. But also shouldn't you just be able to hop into a plane and go around the patch?

Maybe I think that this student is way to slow, but in reality it is not. Maybe I am doing it wrong and that person is doing it right. But to me this would drive me up the wall.
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bbchien said:
(?) High functioning autism vs. OCD
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How much would this bleed over into interpersonal communication? If the student walks into a typical shooting the bull conversation and does not think that it's right or inappropriate s/he let's you know. Like that is not a nice thing to say or thats highly inappropriate. I have just applied this to just him/her being home schooled and not having loads of experience.

I have had classes with this person over the past few years. Let's say I miss a class or two for various reasons. Well I will be told that by that person, told that it's wrong and you need to think about your priorities. The person is a good student in class. S/he will be the only person writing page long notes when everyone else is bored, asleep or talking to each other. We use this student as a test gauge. If s/he does badly then we know the test was way to hard for everyone else.


Ron Levy said:
Then it's really not your problem to deal with. Have you discussed this with that student's instructor? What did s/he say?
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Yes, I have had conversations with that instructor. The instructor say it is hard to teach someone that does things differently, but that the student should be good after the next few x/c.

Also I will be teaching this student as soon as I get my CFI because we are short on students.
 
ARFlyer said:
How much would this bleed over into interpersonal communication? If the student walks into a typical shooting the bull conversation and does not think that it's right or inappropriate s/he let's you know. Like that is not a nice thing to say or thats highly inappropriate. I have just applied this to just him/her being home schooled and not having loads of experience.

I have had classes with this person over the past few years. Let's say I miss a class or two for various reasons. Well I will be told that by that person, told that it's wrong and you need to think about your priorities. The person is a good student in class. S/he will be the only person writing page long notes when everyone else is bored, asleep or talking to each other. We use this student as a test gauge. If s/he does badly then we know the test was way to hard for everyone else.

Yes, I have had conversations with that instructor. The instructor say it is hard to teach someone that does things differently, but that the student should be good after the next few x/c.

Also I will be teaching this student as soon as I get my CFI because we are short on students.
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Well, just don't marry her (assuming her multiple assumptions) and you should be OK.
 
Start breaking the routine. Have him tell the student at start up to go east instead of west. To go without flight following and without a flight plan for a couple of flights. Give more distractions in the cockpit. It might seem a bit of an overload, but if the student can't handle these changes, the student might not be capable of being a pilot, but if the student does handle it, then it has to be knocked down to they are a very thorough pilot. Also as a commercial student, the cfi does not need to be there the entire pre flight and planning. If the student is told that they are scheduled to go up at 2 and the student shows up at 12, let him. If the student isnt ready to be airborne by 230 the latest, scratch the flight and charge him for the time. All pilots are different and do things at a different pace, but if being unfit to fly is being thrown around then it is the instructors responsibility to bring this to the attention of the flight school. But if the student already passed ppl and IR. then I don't think fit for flight is an issue, I find it hard to believe prior cfi's and dpe's would have signed him off if he was fit for flight. Maybe also find out who his previous cfi was and talk to him, maybe they had a trick they used to keep him going.
 
hopmedic said:
Well, if you look in my car, the volume on the stereo always ends in 0 or 5. So I guess if I was like that on runways, I'd be out of luck for most of them. ;)
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whew - i'm not the only one
 
Ron Levy said:
I think maybe we're seeing some signs of some possible issues that go way beyond how much time it takes to preflight. Flexibility is essential in aviation, and if this person is so inflexible that "s/he freaks" if ATC assigns something other than the route or approach planned before flight, s/he isn't ready to be a Commercial Pilot. And I don't think this is something one can tell how to fix via an internet discussion board.
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This.

Being a private pilot is like being in pee wee soccer. Everyone gets to play regardless of ability, you just have to be able to tie your shoes. Commercial flying requires a certain amount of ability, and versatility. A 1-2 hour preflight is extreme. Not sure if you are including planning into that number such as weather, cross country flight planning etc. but I can't imagine somebody, even a new student spending more than 30 minutes touching the airplane. Is this student being forced into the commercial by a family member or something else? Could be the student just isn't into it.
 
Inverted said:
This.

Being a private pilot is like being in pee wee soccer. Everyone gets to play regardless of ability, you just have to be able to tie your shoes. Commercial flying requires a certain amount of ability, and versatility. A 1-2 hour preflight is extreme. Not sure if you are including planning into that number such as weather, cross country flight planning etc. but I can't imagine somebody, even a new student spending more than 30 minutes touching the airplane. Is this student being forced into the commercial by a family member or something else? Could be the student just isn't into it.
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Includes everything including another last-minute call to the FSS. I do not see it as terribly excessive, especially given s/he is a student.
 
There is a difference in being a military service member and being a military officer. Mindset is a large distinction. Same should apply to Private vs Commercial pilot. Officers and Comm pilots are made not born, but both must bring something to the training table.
 
ever have to turn someone down for being too cautious or too scared/unsure? seems like if they're there to train, this could be alleviated with a few fam flights.
 
hopmedic said:
This was my first thought.

I can relate with this student. While not diagnosed, I do believe that I am on the higher end of Asperger's, which is in the Autism spectrum. I am related to someone who has autism, as well. While I do have a few OCD tendencies, they are pretty minor, and my problems are more with interpersonal communications. For example, I see Kimberly's post about her gift to her flight account, and I ask questions because I want to learn. But the way I asked my questions, and perhaps didn't catch nuances that you all may have caught, I bent some people out of shape, and they all jumped on me. Why? Because I wanted to learn something.

When I want to learn something, the way my brain works, I have to go through different scenarios to make sure I have it right. Unfortunately, that offended some people on this board. There was no malice intended - I just wanted to learn, and make sure I understood, so that I don't one day end up running afoul with the FAA. Unfortunately, it seems that this place isn't so tolerant of someone who doesn't learn the same way they do.
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Well this post clears some things up. You were pretty hard on me with malice intended (I think). I said then I thought your tone was odd...perhaps this post explains why?
 
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