How to know what’s inside the cloud

Vince R

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Vince R
On a recent flight to NY (KISP), I had the scariest experience I’ve ever had in an airplane, and now I’m looking for advice from some of you super-experienced pilots on what I might have done differently.

Inbound, we were at 3000’ in smooth air off the south shore of Long Island. We were pretty much right at the top of a stratus layer that went down to 1400’ with a broken layer below that went to 700’ or so. There were thunderstorms 50-60 miles north of the field, but we saw nothing like big buildups anywhere as we cruised at the top of the clouds. Indeed, it was the benign kind of weather I remember wishing for as an instrument student.

We were vectored for the RNAV 24 approach, and things were going fine...nice stable descent, no turbulence, no precipitation, nothing on the XM weather display - completely routine. As we were turning to intercept the final approach course and were just handed off to the tower, it happened...out of nowhere, we were caught in some sort of wind shear.

In the blink of an eye, we went from a standard rate turn onto the final approach coarse, to a bank of over 60 degrees and 30 degrees pitch up. There was no real turbulence, and I remember thinking we had some sort of flight control or mechanical failure. For a moment I was holding full aerelon against the bank and yet it was still getting steeper.

Thankfully, I managed to recover...we lost nearly 800’ and had turned through nearly 180 degrees, and we went from maybe half a mile south of the final approach course, to almost 2 miles north of course in what seemed like an instant. Once I regained control, my reaction was to turn back towards the airport and climb back up on course, expecting to gain altitude, fly the missed approach and maybe divert elsewhere. Then it happened a second time, except this time it was with turbulence. Severely turbulent, but luckily it only lasted a few moments.

By now we had descended far enough to be in visual conditions and with the airport in sight, I decided to land. There were no scary looking big black cumulonimbus, no rain/lightning, calm winds under 5 knots at the airport. Nothing on my NEXRAD display, and apparently nothing on ATC’s radar since they vectored me right into it. Thankfully we landed without incident, but it was really a harrowing experience that I don’t want to repeat.

So the questions are: what did I fly into, how could I have avoided it, and was there a better strategy than what I did?
 
What day was it, there was weather coming into Massachusetts from that direction. Winds less than 10 on the ground, 47 knots at 4,000 feet this last Tuesday afternoon.
 
wake turbulence?

Interesting possibility. The spot the incident occurred was just about where V16 crosses the final approach course for the KISP RNAV 24 approach, so I guess there could have been recent traffic in the area that left wingtip vortices for me to run into.
 
What day was it, there was weather coming into Massachusetts from that direction. Winds less than 10 on the ground, 47 knots at 4,000 feet this last Tuesday afternoon.

It was 9/12.
 
On a recent flight to NY (KISP), I had the scariest experience I’ve ever had in an airplane, and now I’m looking for advice from some of you super-experienced pilots on what I might have done differently.

Inbound, we were at 3000’ in smooth air off the south shore of Long Island. We were pretty much right at the top of a stratus layer that went down to 1400’ with a broken layer below that went to 700’ or so. There were thunderstorms 50-60 miles north of the field, but we saw nothing like big buildups anywhere as we cruised at the top of the clouds. Indeed, it was the benign kind of weather I remember wishing for as an instrument student.

We were vectored for the RNAV 24 approach, and things were going fine...nice stable descent, no turbulence, no precipitation, nothing on the XM weather display - completely routine. As we were turning to intercept the final approach course and were just handed off to the tower, it happened...out of nowhere, we were caught in some sort of wind shear.

In the blink of an eye, we went from a standard rate turn onto the final approach coarse, to a bank of over 60 degrees and 30 degrees pitch up. There was no real turbulence, and I remember thinking we had some sort of flight control or mechanical failure. For a moment I was holding full aerelon against the bank and yet it was still getting steeper.

Thankfully, I managed to recover...we lost nearly 800’ and had turned through nearly 180 degrees, and we went from maybe half a mile south of the final approach course, to almost 2 miles north of course in what seemed like an instant. Once I regained control, my reaction was to turn back towards the airport and climb back up on course, expecting to gain altitude, fly the missed approach and maybe divert elsewhere. Then it happened a second time, except this time it was with turbulence. Severely turbulent, but luckily it only lasted a few moments.

By now we had descended far enough to be in visual conditions and with the airport in sight, I decided to land. There were no scary looking big black cumulonimbus, no rain/lightning, calm winds under 5 knots at the airport. Nothing on my NEXRAD display, and apparently nothing on ATC’s radar since they vectored me right into it. Thankfully we landed without incident, but it was really a harrowing experience that I don’t want to repeat.

So the questions are: what did I fly into, how could I have avoided it, and was there a better strategy than what I did?

Can you get the Synopsis for that day?
 
It was 9/12.

I think there are ways to get all the weather forecasts for previous days. I know there are for METARS, but I don’t remember where. Somebody here does because it’s here someone told me where to get it. It could be educational to do that. What time did this happen?
 
On a recent flight to NY (KISP), I had the scariest experience I’ve ever had in an airplane, and now I’m looking for advice from some of you super-experienced pilots on what I might have done differently.

Inbound, we were at 3000’ in smooth air off the south shore of Long Island. We were pretty much right at the top of a stratus layer that went down to 1400’ with a broken layer below that went to 700’ or so. There were thunderstorms 50-60 miles north of the field, but we saw nothing like big buildups anywhere as we cruised at the top of the clouds. Indeed, it was the benign kind of weather I remember wishing for as an instrument student.

We were vectored for the RNAV 24 approach, and things were going fine...nice stable descent, no turbulence, no precipitation, nothing on the XM weather display - completely routine. As we were turning to intercept the final approach course and were just handed off to the tower, it happened...out of nowhere, we were caught in some sort of wind shear.

In the blink of an eye, we went from a standard rate turn onto the final approach coarse, to a bank of over 60 degrees and 30 degrees pitch up. There was no real turbulence, and I remember thinking we had some sort of flight control or mechanical failure. For a moment I was holding full aerelon against the bank and yet it was still getting steeper.

Thankfully, I managed to recover...we lost nearly 800’ and had turned through nearly 180 degrees, and we went from maybe half a mile south of the final approach course, to almost 2 miles north of course in what seemed like an instant. Once I regained control, my reaction was to turn back towards the airport and climb back up on course, expecting to gain altitude, fly the missed approach and maybe divert elsewhere. Then it happened a second time, except this time it was with turbulence. Severely turbulent, but luckily it only lasted a few moments.

By now we had descended far enough to be in visual conditions and with the airport in sight, I decided to land. There were no scary looking big black cumulonimbus, no rain/lightning, calm winds under 5 knots at the airport. Nothing on my NEXRAD display, and apparently nothing on ATC’s radar since they vectored me right into it. Thankfully we landed without incident, but it was really a harrowing experience that I don’t want to repeat.

So the questions are: what did I fly into, how could I have avoided it, and was there a better strategy than what I did?


Had the same experience once upon a time in a twin. Learned the hard way that the top of a cloud marks the top of a column of rising air that has lost vertical momentum because the temperature inside the column has beco Bme equal to the temperature of the surrounding air. Where does that now-cool air go now? DOWN, so there is an invisible column (or curtain, maybe) of descending air outside of the cloud. I stuck a wingtip into that invisible menace, thinking that by not flying into the cloud I was home and safe, and got surprised.

Just stay farther away from convective clouds.

Bob
 
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I think there are ways to get all the weather forecasts for previous days. I know there are for METARS, but I don’t remember where. Somebody here does because it’s here someone told me where to get it. It could be educational to do that. What time did this happen?

It was roughly 13:50 local time.
 
Can you check flight aware or something to see if another craft crossed your path? (regarding wake turbulence).
 
Had the same experience once upon a time in a twin. Learned the hard way that the top of a cloud marks the top of a column of rising air that has lost vertical momentum because the temperature inside the column has beco Bme equal to the temperature of the surrounding air. Where does that now-cool air go now? DOWN, so there is an invisible column (or curtain, maybe) of descending air outside of the cloud. I stuck a wingtip into that invisible menace, thinking that by not flying into the cloud I was home and safe, and got surprised.

Just stay farther away from convective clouds.

Bob
This. Anytime there is convective weather in the area, even if it's not in the immediate area, I avoid IMC and will ask for deviations around buildups -- well in advance, so I can give them a wide berth. I wonder whether the OP might have been just outside a buildup he couldn't see when he encountered the sinking vortex.
 
Wow. That’s scary. That sharp of a bank and pitch is getting close to a stall spin. Any PIREPs for the area?? It’s scary to think you are attempt to level wings and are fully deflected and it’s not working. Sounds like some odd wake turb but should be able to look into that. If on a IFR plan you’d think they would have mentioned someone in your area. Agree that if there’s unstable air in the distance within eyesight, have to assume you are in unstable air.
 
Wow. That’s scary. That sharp of a bank and pitch is getting close to a stall spin. Any PIREPs for the area?? It’s scary to think you are attempt to level wings and are fully deflected and it’s not working. Sounds like some odd wake turb but should be able to look into that. If on a IFR plan you’d think they would have mentioned someone in your area. Agree that if there’s unstable air in the distance within eyesight, have to assume you are in unstable air.
In truth, it wasn’t scary as it unfolded - I was too busy trying to fly the plane and not to become an NTSB statistic. The scare came later when I realized if the same thing had happened a few miles closer to the airport where I would have been lower and slower, the results might been different.

There were no PIREPs and maybe the biggest surprise was how suddenly I went from a completely routine approach in smooth air to nearly being inverted by a force that was almost beyond the capabilities of my airplane.
 
....The scare came later when I realized if the same thing had happened a few miles closer to the airport where I would have been lower and slower.....

Oh, I thought you said you were on final which is why I thought of wake turbulence.
 
Oh, I thought you said you were on final which is why I thought of wake turbulence.
Yes, we were getting vectors to the RNAV 24 approach at KISP and were perhaps 2-3 miles outside the final approach fix (UKEGE)...that's about 7 miles to the runway. I had just been handed off to the tower and was turning to join the final approach course when it happened.

In addition to wake turbulence from other landing/departing aircraft, I'm also curious if it might have been an aircraft on one of the nearby airways since the approach course passes fairly close to both V16 and V46. In still air, I could see wake turbulence drifting down across my path from an aircraft that had passed a few minutes earlier on one of those airways. Do you think that's a possibility?
 
Yes, we were getting vectors to the RNAV 24 approach at KISP and were perhaps 2-3 miles outside the final approach fix (UKEGE)...that's about 7 miles to the runway. I had just been handed off to the tower and was turning to join the final approach course when it happened.

In addition to wake turbulence from other landing/departing aircraft, I'm also curious if it might have been an aircraft on one of the nearby airways since the approach course passes fairly close to both V16 and V46. In still air, I could see wake turbulence drifting down across my path from an aircraft that had passed a few minutes earlier on one of those airways. Do you think that's a possibility?

I can definitively say 'I dunno, maybe'.
 
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