How to fly in and out of this airport

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wildwobby

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wildwobby
Hi,

I'm a student pilot, and was just randomly looking through airnav and stumbled upon Palm Beach County Park Airport. I see it's proximity to KPBI and how it is under the low shelf of the Class C.
http://skyvector.com/#43-37-3-2837-1710

Since the field is uncontrolled, how would you possibly safely fly into and out of the airport? Would Palm Beach approach be in charge of it? Who exactly do you contact before you takeoff, or as you approach, etc..?
 
wildwobby said:
Since the field is uncontrolled, how would you possibly safely fly into and out of the airport? Would Palm Beach approach be in charge of it? Who exactly do you contact before you takeoff, or as you approach, etc..?
Click to expand...

Why do you need to talk to anyone? It is an uncontrolled airport, as you mentioned. As long as you stay below 1,200 feet and to the south, there is no need to talk to anyone. The cutout to the north allows for normal traffic patterns.

Not sure I understand what your issue is.
 
Unless you approach/depart from/to the north, and you stay under 1200 feet, you don't have to contact anyone. However, if you want to be safe you could contact Palm Beach Approach 127.35
 
wildwobby said:
Hi,

I'm a student pilot, and was just randomly looking through airnav and stumbled upon Palm Beach County Park Airport. I see it's proximity to KPBI and how it is under the low shelf of the Class C.
http://skyvector.com/#43-37-3-2837-1710

Since the field is uncontrolled, how would you possibly safely fly into and out of the airport? Would Palm Beach approach be in charge of it? Who exactly do you contact before you takeoff, or as you approach, etc..?
Click to expand...

Don't be flying any wide, sloppy patterns there...
 
wildwobby said:
Hi,

I'm a student pilot, and was just randomly looking through airnav and stumbled upon Palm Beach County Park Airport. I see it's proximity to KPBI and how it is under the low shelf of the Class C.
http://skyvector.com/#43-37-3-2837-1710

Since the field is uncontrolled, how would you possibly safely fly into and out of the airport? Would Palm Beach approach be in charge of it? Who exactly do you contact before you takeoff, or as you approach, etc..?
Click to expand...

Welcome aboard!

I've flown out of that airport. As it is an uncontrolled field, you don't have to talk to anyone prior to takeoff, though it is advisable (as with all uncontrolled fields) to announce your departure on the CTAF, which is 122.7 in this case. After takeoff, you can either stay below 1200 MSL and stay out of the inner ring of the C, or you can contact Palm Beach Approach. As you can see on Skyvector, the sectional says to contact them in that area on 125.2, but in the A/FD entry for KLNA it lists approach/departure control on 127.35. That *may* mean that the antenna for 127.35 is at LNA which would make them reachable on the ground. That would allow you to establish two-way communications prior to takeoff so you could climb right up through their airspace, if they let you. But in most of the planes we fly, you'll have some time (1-2 minutes) after takeoff before you'd be able to climb into the outer ring of the C anyway.

Hope this helps - Please ask for clarification if I confused you at all. I'm pretty good at that sometimes. :yes:
 
Exactly as Greg has said
Greg Bockelman said:
Why do you need to talk to anyone? It is an uncontrolled airport, as you mentioned. As long as you stay below 1,200 feet and to the south, there is no need to talk to anyone. The cutout to the north allows for normal traffic patterns.

Not sure I understand what your issue is.
Click to expand...

I have flown into and out of LNA. Flying in I have been IFR and sometimes VFR with flight following. In that case I am already talking to Palm Beach approach so I can enter the class C, eventually switching to the advisory frequency to self announce my pattern entry into the LNA pattern.

Departing in VFR conditions you jsut announce and take off. But don't enter the Class C unless you have contacted Palm Beach Approach and they have acknowledged you. If you don't even want to mess with that then just stay below the Class C shelf and fly away form the area.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Not sure I understand what your issue is.
Click to expand...

Probably that the poster is a student pilot, and isn't as familiar with this stuff as we are after between 220 hours (me) and 20,000 hours (you). ;)

Anyway, the correct answer has already been stated. You don't need to get permission from Palm Beach approach prior to takeoff. So long as you stay under 1200 MSL, you don't need to contact Palm Beach approach at all. For landing, you just make sure that you drop down to below 1200 MSL to stay under the shelf of the Class C airspace. It's all fine, no drama, you don't even need to talk to anyone (other than announcing on advisory frequency when you're approaching/landing/etc. at KLNA).

However, I'll add that I make a point of pretty much always talking to the appropriate ATC facility when I'm flying. It sure is nice and helpful to have. So, if I was not already on flight following coming from wherever I'm coming from (in which case they would hopefully hand me off to Palm Beach approach), I would contact Palm Beach about 15-20 miles out, get a squawk code, and then I have them on frequency. What's really nice about this is that they will likey give you clearance into the Class C airspace, and that allows you to stay higher for longer, making it easier to spot the airport, and staying higher is generally nice, especially in congested areas.

Good luck, and have a safe flight!
 
Ted DuPuis said:
However, I'll add that I make a point of pretty much always talking to the appropriate ATC facility when I'm flying. It sure is nice and helpful to have.
Click to expand...
Seconded. A lot of pilots don't like talking to ATC, for whatever reason. I'll use them every chance I get. It's always good to have someone's eyes following me through the sky.

I'd approach flying in and out of there by talking to Palm Beach Approach on the way in from elsewhere, and calling them right after takeoff on the way out. I don't know what they want from pilots staying in the pattern; if I were in that situation, I'd talk to them on the phone first to see what they wanted from me.
 
jmaynard said:
I'd approach flying in and out of there by talking to Palm Beach Approach on the way in from elsewhere, and calling them right after takeoff on the way out. I don't know what they want from pilots staying in the pattern; if I were in that situation, I'd talk to them on the phone first to see what they wanted from me.
Click to expand...
From experience, the want nothing to do with pilots in the pattern except for them to abide by the Class C. Leaving LNA it is sometimes tough to raise the PB-App control.

Florida airspace around SE-FLA is always the busiest airspace I fly, even more than Chicago where most of the traffic is following similiar paths. Plus it also has the 'advantage' of, or at least it seems that way, having more students in the air at any one time than anywhere else in the country. That is why I tend to be IFR when I over in that area, I like the the seperation services.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
What's really nice about this is that they will likey give you clearance into the Class C airspace
Click to expand...
Ted, I know you know this, but it is a bit misleading for a student pilot. All you need to enter Class C airspace is to be talking to ATC, and squawking the code he gives you... you do not need to (nor will you) hear "cleared into the Class C airspace."

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Ted, I know you know this, but it is a bit misleading for a student pilot. All you need to enter Class C airspace is to be talking to ATC, and squawking the code he gives you... you do not need to (nor will you) hear "cleared into the Class C airspace."

-Skip
Click to expand...
Well, let's not confuse him even more.

You do not need to squawk anything other than 1200 unless you are given a code. And you don't just need to be talking to ATC - you have to get a reply, at least once, with your call sign. "Aircraft calling standby" does not qualify, "N1235 standby", however, does and you can proceed into the class C right away.

-Felix
 
jmaynard said:
Seconded. A lot of pilots don't like talking to ATC, for whatever reason. I'll use them every chance I get. It's always good to have someone's eyes following me through the sky.
Click to expand...

I've noticed what I believe to be two views that cause this. First one is "I don't need them telling me what to do" (sounds an awful lot like a hazardous attitude to me), second one is "I don't want to screw up and embarass myself in front of everyone else on the radio". The first one is probably best addressed with a sledgehammer. As to the second one, there are the people out there who tell you their whole life stories, including their dog's name, just to ask for flight following. It's hard to be much worse than that. ATC is there to help, not critique your radio skills (although on occasion I've heard them give self-declared student pilots some helpful hints).

And thanks Skip/Felix for clarifying my point, you are correct that it was unclear.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I've noticed what I believe to be two views that cause this. First one is "I don't need them telling me what to do" (sounds an awful lot like a hazardous attitude to me), second one is "I don't want to screw up and embarass myself in front of everyone else on the radio". The first one is probably best addressed with a sledgehammer. As to the second one, there are the people out there who tell you their whole life stories, including their dog's name, just to ask for flight following. It's hard to be much worse than that. ATC is there to help, not critique your radio skills (although on occasion I've heard them give self-declared student pilots some helpful hints).
Click to expand...

I don't use ATC services when I don't need them. It's not a "hazardous attitude" not to use the service. I like flying VFR with my eyes outside the cockpit. Too often in today's world pilots are being taught ATC and the radio will do everything for you, so many pilots check in with ATC and keep their head glued to the GPS or MFD thinking ATC has them covered. The recent training accident in south Florida is a good example of this.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I've noticed what I believe to be two views that cause this. First one is "I don't need them telling me what to do" (sounds an awful lot like a hazardous attitude to me), second one is "I don't want to screw up and embarass myself in front of everyone else on the radio". The first one is probably best addressed with a sledgehammer. As to the second one, there are the people out there who tell you their whole life stories, including their dog's name, just to ask for flight following. It's hard to be much worse than that.
Click to expand...
It's not hard to be worse than that. Getting FF is not easy as it is handled differently in different parts of the country. Inexperienced IFR pilots are much worse.

Ted DuPuis said:
ATC is there to help, not critique your radio skills (although on occasion I've heard them give self-declared student pilots some helpful hints).

And thanks Skip/Felix for clarifying my point, you are correct that it was unclear.
Click to expand...
Not unclear, just wrong. Clearance and class C have nothing to do with each other.

-Felix
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I don't use ATC services when I don't need them. It's not a "hazardous attitude" not to use the service. I like flying VFR with my eyes outside the cockpit. Too often in today's world pilots are being taught ATC and the radio will do everything for you, so many pilots check in with ATC and keep their head glued to the GPS or MFD thinking ATC has them covered. The recent training accident in south Florida is a good example of this.
Click to expand...

I wasn't referring to you, nor was I saying it was a hazardous attitude to not use the service, I was looking at the reasoning. Reasoning of "I don't want them telling me what to do" is anti-authority. My point was that I have generally observed two sorts of people who don't use it. Doesn't mean those are the only types.

Now that I look at my initial post again, the first time I used the term "I don't need them telling me what to do." I could see where you and I would have interpreted that pretty differently. My revision (replace "need" with "want") is probably more clear.

You're absolutely correct that a lot of pilots don't spend enough time looking out the window, and that needs to be corrected. I had that problem for a bit as a student and it was properly cured. Relying on ATC to save you doesn't work, the point is that it's an extra resource to help you. The "extra set of eyes" analogy is good, because they won't catch everything, and neither will you. Maybe your VFR flying is different than most of mine, but generally when I'm out VFR I'm still going somewhere rather than just flying around, so I'd like ATC there listening, plus I like the radio chatter. To each his own, I'm sure you get enough radio chatter in your job.
 
sba55 said:
It's not hard to be worse than that. Getting FF is not easy as it is handled differently in different parts of the country. Inexperienced IFR pilots are much worse.
Click to expand...

I find it hard to be much worse than a 2 minute speech coming off of an airport about where you came from last week, how nice the food was at Grandma's, what you got for Christmas, your dog's name is Rusty, etc. preventing anyone else from talking for that time period. Maybe you don't get that much where you are, but it seems whenever I fly to Harrisburg I hear it, and Harrisburg approach is just as annoyed about it as I am. I've also heard a variant on that in Virginia, where a pilot of a fast plane is talking slow enough to be in someone else's airspace before finishing a sentence, but that is less bothersome. ;)

Point is, if you aren't comfortable with radios, educate yourself on them, don't just not use them out of fear.

sba55 said:
Not unclear, just wrong. Clearance and class C have nothing to do with each other.
Click to expand...

Skip understood what I was getting at. You can't just fly into a Class C squawking 1200 with your radios off.
 
sba55 said:
Well, let's not confuse him even more.

You do not need to squawk anything other than 1200 unless you are given a code. And you don't just need to be talking to ATC - you have to get a reply, at least once, with your call sign. "Aircraft calling standby" does not qualify, "N1235 standby", however, does and you can proceed into the class C right away.

-Felix
Click to expand...
While true, I would not continue "drifting" toward the airport based on that alone without some knowledge of how that approach vectors traffic or with a vector from them to start off the party. Austin, as well as other Charlie's, get mighty busy with birds big enough to use me as a hood ornament.

For that reason, I would never send a student into another Class C without some prior instruction on how that particular airspace operates. It's not required as is Bravo training but it's a wise move.
 
Do you feel comfortable enough to spend some time with your CFI and ask this question? Hopefully s/he has experience with this airport or another one that is under a Class C shelf and will be willing to demonstrate the best way to handle it considering your level of experience. A good CFI will be delighted that you are thinking ahead of what has been given you in the lessons.
 
This thread is a perfect example of why student pilots become confused on what should be a simple procedure. :nono:
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I don't use ATC services when I don't need them. It's not a "hazardous attitude" not to use the service.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I don't call up Minneapolis Center every time I leave the pattern at KFRM. I do, however, call them up pretty much every time I go on a cross-country.

I like flying VFR with my eyes outside the cockpit. Too often in today's world pilots are being taught ATC and the radio will do everything for you, so many pilots check in with ATC and keep their head glued to the GPS or MFD thinking ATC has them covered. The recent training accident in south Florida is a good example of this.
Click to expand...
That's a failure of training, not a demonstration that VFR flight with eyes outside the cockpit and receiving flight following and radar advisories are mutually exclusive. Any CFI who lets his students get away with this has failed them.
 
sba55 said:
Getting FF is not easy as it is handled differently in different parts of the country.
Click to expand...
You mean that the following won't work some places:

Me: "[ATC facility], Zodiac 55ZC, over."
ATC: "Zodiac 55ZC, go ahead."
Me: "[ATC facility], Zodiac 55ZC is [position], [altitude], enroute to [next waypoint], [final destination [destination] (if different)]. I'd like advisories and flight following, please."

That's always worked for me, across a good chunk of the southern and central US.
 
jmaynard said:
You mean that the following won't work some places:

Me: "[ATC facility], Zodiac 55ZC, over."
ATC: "Zodiac 55ZC, go ahead."
Me: "[ATC facility], Zodiac 55ZC is [position], [altitude], enroute to [next waypoint], [final destination [destination] (if different)]. I'd like advisories and flight following, please."

That's always worked for me, across a good chunk of the southern and central US.
Click to expand...
For some reason that type of call will many times fail to break the squelch of the radios in the Chicago TRACON. :rolleyes:
 
jmaynard said:
You mean that the following won't work some places:

Me: "[ATC facility], Zodiac 55ZC, over."
ATC: "Zodiac 55ZC, go ahead."
Me: "[ATC facility], Zodiac 55ZC is [position], [altitude], enroute to [next waypoint], [final destination [destination] (if different)]. I'd like advisories and flight following, please."

That's always worked for me, across a good chunk of the southern and central US.
Click to expand...

Two nits to pick (because picking radio nits is something we do so well):

1) Does anyone actually use "Over" any more? :dunno:
2) "advisories and flight following?" Um, what's the difference? Kinda redundant.

But, I'm sure your voice is better than your keyboard at radio calls. ;)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Two nits to pick (because picking radio nits is something we do so well):
Click to expand...
Two good questions, actually.

1) Does anyone actually use "Over" any more? :dunno:
Click to expand...
I do in this specific case, as a marker that I didn't intend to say anything else. I do it that way to give ATC a chance to handle other traffic and get back to me when he has a chance to handle a longer request.

2) "advisories and flight following?" Um, what's the difference? Kinda redundant.
Click to expand...
I'd always understood it as two different functions: radar advisories are calling out potentially conflicting traffic, and flight following is just watching me as I go along and trying to figure out what happened if I drop off his scope unexpectedly.

However, I just looked through the AIM, and couldn't find any reference to the difference I just outlined...maybe it's a 20-year-old habit that's now outdated.

But, I'm sure your voice is better than your keyboard at radio calls. ;)
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure it is, but that's indeed what I actually say on the air (plus or minus an occasional "uh" if I haven't got my head screwed on straight).
 
Skip Miller said:
Ted, I know you know this, but it is a bit misleading for a student pilot. All you need to enter Class C airspace is to be talking to ATC, and squawking the code he gives you... you do not need to (nor will you) hear "cleared into the Class C airspace."
Click to expand...

You will, however have to have "permission" to enter the Class C Airspace.
If you enter the Class C Airspace without ATC granting you permission, have have committed a violation of the FARs.
 
john smith said:
You will, however have to have "permission" to enter the Class C Airspace.
If you enter the Class C Airspace without ATC granting you permission, have have committed a violation of the FARs.
Click to expand...
No, you do not need permission. You only need contact with ATC. See 91.130(c), which does not mention any sort of permission. ATC can instruct you to remain clear of the airspace, but that's a definite instruction, not a lack of permission.
 
jmaynard said:
No, you do not need permission. You only need contact with ATC. See 91.130(c), which does not mention any sort of permission. ATC can instruct you to remain clear of the airspace, but that's a definite instruction, not a lack of permission.
Click to expand...

I wonder when they changed that? It used to specify work permission.
I got into an interesting debate with the head of ATC over what the defintion of permission was.
At the time, some people were saying that ATC's acknowledgment of your call with your callsign was considered permission to enter Class C Airspace.
 
jmaynard said:
No, you do not need permission. You only need contact with ATC. See 91.130(c), which does not mention any sort of permission. ATC can instruct you to remain clear of the airspace, but that's a definite instruction, not a lack of permission.
Click to expand...

john smith said:
I wonder when they changed that? It used to specify work permission.
I got into an interesting debate with the head of ATC over what the defintion of permission was.
At the time, some people were saying that ATC's acknowledgment of your call with your callsign was considered permission to enter Class C Airspace.
Click to expand...

Class B requirement:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.
Click to expand...

Class C Requirement:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.
Click to expand...

Not so subtle difference between the two. Class B mentions ATC Clearance to enter. Class C mentions establish two-way communications.

So what constitutes "establish two-way communications"? In the past, it was acknowledgment by ATC with the tail number. As far as I know, that has not changed.
 
jmaynard said:
No, you do not need permission. You only need contact with ATC. See 91.130(c), which does not mention any sort of permission. ATC can instruct you to remain clear of the airspace, but that's a definite instruction, not a lack of permission.
Click to expand...
To add to what Greg was saying, "two-way communication" must be established. I couldn't find that defined in the FARs or AIM. So, I went to the controller's bible for Air Traffic Control, FAA Order 7110.65S.


3-1-13. ESTABLISHING TWO-WAY COMMUNICATIONS
​
​
Pilots are required to establish two‐way radio
communications before entering the Class D
airspace. If the controller responds to a radio call
with, “(a/c call sign) standby,” radio communications
have been established and the pilot can enter the
Class D airspace. If workload or traffic conditions
prevent immediate provision of Class D services,
inform the pilot to remain outside the Class D
airspace until conditions permit the services to be​
provided.
Click to expand...
Though the above refers to Class D, we know the same standard also applies to Class C. It's enhanced again in Class B with the required magic words, "Cleared to Enter Class Bravo" or however the controller may put that across but at least in such a way it is not ambiguous. Usually, it will be "Cleared to enter" or "Cleared through" followed by specific instructions or "Cleared as requested."
 
jmaynard said:
I do in this specific case, as a marker that I didn't intend to say anything else. I do it that way to give ATC a chance to handle other traffic and get back to me when he has a chance to handle a longer request.
Click to expand...

While that makes sense, I've not heard it as a practice normally done where I fly.

jmaynard said:
I'd always understood it as two different functions: radar advisories are calling out potentially conflicting traffic, and flight following is just watching me as I go along and trying to figure out what happened if I drop off his scope unexpectedly.

However, I just looked through the AIM, and couldn't find any reference to the difference I just outlined...maybe it's a 20-year-old habit that's now outdated.
Click to expand...

My instructor taught me to just request flight following, and they've given me radar advisories every time with it

Now, occasionally (normally only around NY Bravo) I spot traffic that they either don't call out to me at all or call out late. Hence the importance of continuing to look outside and not handing off all the responsibilities to the controller. However on the same flight, the controller called out other traffic to me, so I believe it to be a case of an overworked controller.

jmaynard said:
I'm pretty sure it is, but that's indeed what I actually say on the air (plus or minus an occasional "uh" if I haven't got my head screwed on straight).
Click to expand...

Before I make my call I try to have gone over in my head exactly what I'm going to say so I recite it back to the controller without any "uh"s added in there. It does come in, though, usually when the controller is asking me a question and I'm thinking up an answer.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Before I make my call I try to have gone over in my head exactly what I'm going to say so I recite it back to the controller without any "uh"s added in there.
Click to expand...
I do too, as a firm believer in the idea that a pilot should think before pushing the button. Unfortunately, nobody's perfect. I must be doing something right, since my CFI tells his students to listen to me on the radio.
 
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