How to fly a DP?

[denverpilot]

It's radar vectors to join the departure, not a radar vector SID like the DENVER SIX. If, for example, the OP had gotten the GLD transition and had been vectored to join the departure at EXTAN he or she would have had to follow the route out to GLD.

Correct. I guess I thought that part was obvious, but I can see where the way I phrased it, it might not be.

You're required to be able to fly the whole thing as depicted, but up that far north, it's going to be radar vectors to EXTAN around here.

I kinda mixed the two pieces of information together because I was focused on KFNL specifically, for the OP.

And someone asked what you do if you can't meet the climb gradient of a SID or an ODP... If you can't, you can't accept it and need a Plan B when you get it as your clearance.

Here's a question for those flying gee-whiz glass panel stuff... Does Garmin or Jeppesen bother to put the climb gradient information on the flight director bars like an approach? Seems like it'd be a smart thing for them to add, but at the same time if you're already aloft and are just now realizing you can't get the nose up to the bars, you've screwed up already. But... It would be useful information to know, nevertheless.

 

[aterpster]

Yeah SVT will reinforce what he should already know...he can't meet the climb gradient. :wink2:

A significant component of the climb gradients on the KLAS SIDs are for ATC purposes, not terrain.

 

[Velocity173]

A significant component of the climb gradients on the KLAS SIDs are for ATC purposes, not terrain.

I know. I think Henning was refering to ODPs and not SIDs.

 

[aterpster]

If an instrument student can set up, explain all the nuances, and fly this one correctly in a procedures trainer, he has the ODP phase aced.

 

[Velocity173]

If an instrument student can set up, explain all the nuances, and fly this one correctly in a procedures trainer, he has the ODP phase aced.

That's about 700 fpm for me. With a cruise prop I'd be pushing it out there in the summer. I would definitely need to climb in VMC to be safe.

 

[aterpster]

That's about 700 fpm for me. With a cruise prop I'd be pushing it out there in the summer. I would definitely need to climb in VMC to be safe.

The ODP has a VCOA option.

 

[aterpster]

I know. I think Henning was refering to ODPs and not SIDs.

That sure wasn't clear. His post was two down from my comments about the KLAS SIDs.

With an ODP he may have a VCOA option, which he won't with a SID.

 

[Everskyward]

Here's a question for those flying gee-whiz glass panel stuff... Does Garmin or Jeppesen bother to put the climb gradient information on the flight director bars like an approach? Seems like it'd be a smart thing for them to add, but at the same time if you're already aloft and are just now realizing you can't get the nose up to the bars, you've screwed up already. But... It would be useful information to know, nevertheless.

I see what you are getting at but that wouldn't seem to be a great idea since you probably want to be climbing at more than the minimum climb gradient which you would be doing if you followed the FD bars in that situation. But to answer your question, our avionics (Honeywell) don't have that capability.

 

[Velocity173]

That sure wasn't clear. His post was two down from my comments about the KLAS SIDs.

With an ODP he may have a VCOA option, which he won't with a SID.

OK, I think Henning was just joking. Hence my SVT joke. I'm sure he and almost every IFR pilot out there knows what to do if they can't make climb gradients on a DP. Whether that be a SID or ODP.

 

[Henning]

I in all honesty have never been issued one. As I said, the ones I have seen head quickly to J routes, just not where I'm going.

 

[Velocity173]

I in all honesty have never been issued one. As I said, the ones I have seen head quickly to J routes, just not where I'm going.

It's just like using takeoff mins and ODPs. If you can't meet the climb gradient, climb in VFR conditions or choose a different runway.

 

[denverpilot]

I see what you are getting at but that wouldn't seem to be a great idea since you probably want to be climbing at more than the minimum climb gradient which you would be doing if you followed the FD bars in that situation. But to answer your question, our avionics (Honeywell) don't have that capability.

Yeah, true. I guess I was thinking that the data is there somewhere... Might as well have some sort of display that you're not maintaining the appropriate gradient. Not sure how you would depict that.

(And no SVT required. Not picking on SVT, but the data is available just need to figure out how to database it, display it, etc.)

 

[aterpster]

OK, I think Henning was just joking. Hence my SVT joke. I'm sure he and almost every IFR pilot out there knows what to do if they can't make climb gradients on a DP. Whether that be a SID or ODP.

You have more faith than moi.

There are many circumstances of a Plan B for an ODP that has a climb gradient. Can you list them all? I know I can't.

As to a SID, either you can or you can't.

 

[aterpster]

It's just like using takeoff mins and ODPs. If you can't meet the climb gradient, climb in VFR conditions or choose a different runway.

KTVL, 200 overcast, 1 mile, wind 180 at 20, gusting to 30. Temperature, 75 F.

Or, same wind and temp, but 1,100 overcast and 3 miles.

 

[aterpster]

Yeah, true. I guess I was thinking that the data is there somewhere... Might as well have some sort of display that you're not maintaining the appropriate gradient. Not sure how you would depict that.

(And no SVT required. Not picking on SVT, but the data is available just need to figure out how to database it, display it, etc.)

With the exception of Gulfsream, when you buy a shiny new Part 25 biz jet, you are not provided with all-engines operating climb performance data. They do provide a lot of performance data for one engine inoperative (OEI) because certification regulations require those data. And, those data don't do much good at an "obstacle challenged" airport absent a performance/engineering analysis of the obstacle environment.

 

[comanchepilot]

Are you an instrument pilot or an instrument student?

Can you find an FBO with a recording sim? Even the FRASCA's can usually record.

Then, you need to go fly the TEB 8 departure off all of the runways. . . .

Make sure you are legal then I'll trust you!

 

[Velocity173]

KTVL, 200 overcast, 1 mile, wind 180 at 20, gusting to 30. Temperature, 75 F.

Or, same wind and temp, but 1,100 overcast and 3 miles.

I'm not sure why you posted this?

I'm refering to TAKEOFF MINIMUMS AND (OBSTACLE) DEPARTURE PROCEDURES listed in text form at the begining of an approach plate.

Henning asked what if you can't meet the climb gradient? Well, before any IFR pilot departs an airfield they need to check for takeoff mins or ODPs for the airport. If the can't meet a particular climb gradient based on their aircrafts performance, well then they need to modify their plan. The runway may allow to climb in VFR conditions or the other runway may not have a takeoff min or ODP. Might not be able to depart at all based on how low the wx is and how weak a climb rate your aircraft has.

Same applies to a SID. If I can't maintain the min altitudes listed then I need to depart VFR or get some other radar vector departure from ATC.

 

[aterpster]

I'm not sure why you posted this?

I'm refering to TAKEOFF MINIMUMS AND (OBSTACLE) DEPARTURE PROCEDURES listed in text form at the begining of an approach plate.

Henning asked what if you can't meet the climb gradient? Well, before any IFR pilot departs an airfield they need to check for takeoff mins or ODPs for the airport. If the can't meet a particular climb gradient based on their aircrafts performance, well then they need to modify their plan. The runway may allow to climb in VFR conditions or the other runway may not have a takeoff min or ODP. Might not be able to depart at all based on how low the wx is and how weak a climb rate your aircraft has.

Same applies to a SID. If I can't maintain the min altitudes listed then I need to depart VFR or get some other radar vector departure from ATC.

I posted it to point out at that airport even with marginal VFR weather you can't make a VFR modification to the ODP; i.e., there are many, many variables in this ODP mix.

And, more and more, at airports like KLAS, they won't honor a request for vectors below the MVA, even on departure. Eventually, once the DVA program finally really takes hold, that will change. But, when that happens many DVAs will require a charted climb gradient so it is back to square one. ATC radar doesn't negate terrain problems.