How to fly a DP?

NoHeat

NoHeat

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I never learned to fly a departure procedure because my primary and instrument training was done where there are no DPs. So I'm trying to figure out what to do, in real life, when I'm given a DP.

Here's a concrete example:

I was on the ground at KFNL (Ft. Collins Colorado) headed east to KIOW. Instead of clearing me as filed, Clearance Delivery gave me a clearance of Plains 5 to transition at TXC (which is a VOR), and some altitudes were also specified. (In real life, I declined this clearance and departed VFR since I didn't know what else to do.)

So how would I fly it in real life, assuming I've got a Garmin 430 and an autopilot, if that were my clearance?

Here's my guess -- please tell me if I'm anywhere close to correct:

1. In my 430, in the flight plan menu, after entering my departure and destination airports (KFNL and KIOW), while still on the Flight Plan pages I push the MENU button to bring up a Page Menu and I choose Select Departure, and that generates a list of departures and I choose Plain5, which brings up a TRANS menu and I select TXC. (Hopefully I won't need to use any of this because I'll just get vectors anyway?) I then push ENT in response to the Load? query. The Flight Plan's first page now shows that the Active Flight Plan is KFNL/KIOW and below that it shows this list:
Waypoint
-- TXC
| Enroute
-> KIOW

2. After takeoff, if I have radio communication, I make a climbing right turn to the assigned altitude and heading, using the autopilot in HDG mode. Then I keep the autopilot in HDG mode and just take vectors until they eventually tell me to go direct to my destination. At no point do I actually use the DP that I programmed into the 430's flight plan.

3. If I lose radio communication I fly the route indicated in the DP (direct to DEN and then to TXC) -- and to get started I would set the autopilot to NAV mode, causing it to execute the DP that I previously selected.

Is that anywhere close to correct?
 
NoHeat said:
I never learned to fly a departure procedure because my primary and instrument training was done where there are no DPs. So I'm trying to figure out what to do, in real life, when I'm given a DP.

Here's a concrete example:

I was on the ground at KFNL (Ft. Collins Colorado) headed east to KIOW. Instead of clearing me as filed, Clearance Delivery gave me a clearance of Plains 5 to transition at TXC (which is a VOR), and some altitudes were also specified. (In real life, I declined this clearance and departed VFR since I didn't know what else to do.)

So how would I fly it in real life, assuming I've got a Garmin 430 and an autopilot, if that were my clearance?

Here's my guess -- please tell me if I'm anywhere close to correct:

1. In my 430, in the flight plan menu, after entering my departure and destination airports (KFNL and KIOW), while still on the Flight Plan pages I push the MENU button to bring up a Page Menu and I choose Select Departure, and that generates a list of departures and I choose Plain5, which brings up a TRANS menu and I select TXC. (Hopefully I won't need to use any of this because I'll just get vectors anyway?) I then push ENT in response to the Load? query. The Flight Plan's first page now shows that the Active Flight Plan is KFNL/KIOW and below that it shows this list:
Waypoint
-- TXC
| Enroute
-> KIOW

2. After takeoff, if I have radio communication, I make a climbing right turn to the assigned altitude and heading, using the autopilot in HDG mode. Then I keep the autopilot in HDG mode and just take vectors until they eventually tell me to go direct to my destination. At no point do I actually use the DP that I programmed into the 430's flight plan.

3. If I lose radio communication I fly the route indicated in the DP (direct to DEN and then to TXC) -- and to get started I would set the autopilot to NAV mode, causing it to execute the DP that I previously selected.

Is that anywhere close to correct?
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Here is the chart.

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1212/05677PLAINS.PDF

So your display would probably look something like:

DEN
EXTAN
TXC
Whatever you filed in between
KIOW

Off KFNL they would either give you vectors to join the departure, probably between DEN and EXTAN, or they might give you vectors then direct EXTAN, TXC or somewhere past that along your route.

The second page of the departure gives you the lost communications procedure.

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1212/05677PLAINS_C.PDF
 
Your 430 buttonology is correct. You do have a set of plates, paper or electronic, right? (The correct answer on a public forum is: "Of course I do!!!" ) Think of a DP (or SID ) as just an approach in reverse. Fly the chart, making sure you have the right transition, listen to the radio and you really can't go wrong.
 
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From the ones I've looked at the first thing you need to do is buy a jet.
 
First off, there are no DPs. That was a short-lived term for SIDS that didn't last long.

There are SIDs and ODPs (obstacle departure procedures.) All SIDs are charted, and are in the Garmin database (see attached 530W trainer). Any ODP that is charted will also be the the Garmin database. All RNAV ODPs are charted, a few non-RNAV ODPs are charted.

The SID in question is a SID, not a DP. :rolleyes2:
 

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No need to cancel and go VFR. Although you should've put "no DP" on your flight plan you can still tell ATC unable. If you have the equipment and the plates then there's no reason not to accept a DP. With a GPS it's a no brainier once it's loaded as you described. I've done a bunch with Just a VOR and it's really quite easy. As stated above its like flying an instrument approach in reverse.
 
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I've been assigned this tough DP

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1212/00516RALEIGH.PDF


Okay, If I was assigned something really complicated for no apparent good reason, I'd come back on with CD and maybe say something like "request radar vectors to xxx in lieu of the xxx departure"

Remember ATC can be quite flexible and they are willing to work with you.
 
Be careful with a SID when using direct to on the 430W. It may take the shortest route to intercept the SID and then route to the waypoint.

I had an embarrassing moment when the 430W directed me to intercept the SID midway between waypoints when the controller instructed me to go direct to a waypoint. I thought I had told the 430W to go direct to the waypoint but obviously we had a failure to communicate. :redface::(
 
EppyGA said:
In the comments section of your flt plan "No DP, No STARS"
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I'm sure Eppy realizes that isn't very useful advice. All it does is make an annoyed controller read the whole SID/STAR to you word by word while all the other annoyed pilots waiting for their clearance curse you for the delay you caused.
 
Fly it as published. If you have an IR - you should be able to do it.

You should be able to hand fly any instrument approach or departure/arrival better than an AP.
 
comanchepilot said:
Fly it as published. If you have an IR - you should be able to do it.

You should be able to hand fly any instrument approach or departure/arrival better than an AP.
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It is unfortunate that some instructors (like the OP's) limit themselves to teaching only what is available in the local area. There is no excuse for not teaching ODP's and SID's just because none of the airports nearby have one. Even if you don't have a sim in which to fly procedures beyond the local area, it's easy enough to download them off the Internet and at least talk through them.
 
Everskyward said:
Here is the chart.

Off KFNL they would either give you vectors to join the departure, probably between DEN and EXTAN, or they might give you vectors then direct EXTAN, TXC or somewhere past that along your route.
Click to expand...

Thank you.

I've looked at the departure chart already, and it is a big mystery to me. As I mentioned, I've never flown one. There are several things that I'm not sure about:

1. None of the lines originate from the airport I depart from. They all originate from a VOR. So it's not like an approach plate in reverse. Why don't they draw the intended path from the departure airport to the first VOR?

2. In practice, will ATC vectors ever take me over the first VOR shown in the departure depiction (DEN in my example)? If not, is there any point in programming the Garmin 430 with the departure, which starts with DEN?

3. Is the chart mainly just useful in case you lose radio? If not, what is the chart useful for, if they're giving you vectors anyway?
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm sure Eppy realizes that isn't very useful advice. All it does is make an annoyed controller read the whole SID/STAR to you word by word while all the other annoyed pilots waiting for their clearance curse you for the delay you caused.
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Why is it taught in IR courses? It was taught in the King videos I used and i've found other references to it also.

If you're going in and out of "B" and "C" airports no problem. I've also found that ATC will ignore your remarks and assign things anyhow. My IFR flight a few months ago to Concord (JQF) from Lawrenceville (LZU) included the NASCAR1 STAR.
 
NoHeat said:
I've looked at the departure chart already, and it is a big mystery to me. As I mentioned, I've never flown one. There are several things that I'm not sure about:

1. None of the lines originate from the airport I depart from. They all originate from a VOR. So it's not like an approach plate in reverse. Why don't they draw the intended path from the departure airport to the first VOR?
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The SID is really vectors to join the departure as it says on the second page.

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NoHeat said:
2. In practice, will ATC vectors ever take me over the first VOR shown in the departure depiction (DEN in my example)? If not, is there any point in programming the Garmin 430 with the departure, which starts with DEN?
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You probably won't be vectored to fly over DEN but you want to program it because you might be instructed to join the leg DEN to EXTAN. This is just like intercepting an airway.

NoHeat said:
3. Is the chart mainly just useful in case you lose radio? If not, what is the chart useful for, if they're giving you vectors anyway?
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The chart shows you the route you are supposed to follow just like any other IFR chart. You could do this SID the old-fashoned way with just VOR so you would need to look at the chart to see that the correct course from DEN to EXTAN is 087 degrees.
 
NoHeat said:
Thank you.

I've looked at the departure chart already, and it is a big mystery to me. As I mentioned, I've never flown one. There are several things that I'm not sure about:

1. None of the lines originate from the airport I depart from. They all originate from a VOR. So it's not like an approach plate in reverse. Why don't they draw the intended path from the departure airport to the first VOR?

2. In practice, will ATC vectors ever take me over the first VOR shown in the departure depiction (DEN in my example)? If not, is there any point in programming the Garmin 430 with the departure, which starts with DEN?

3. Is the chart mainly just useful in case you lose radio? If not, what is the chart useful for, if they're giving you vectors anyway?
Click to expand...

I just ask them what they want me to do while on the ground. It seems to work so far. I expect vectors regardless of what they tell me.

Not ideal but it's the stuff we live in around the Bravo...
 
EppyGA said:
Why is it taught in IR courses? It was taught in the King videos I used and i've found other references to it also.
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Probably because it's in the AIM, but it is an impractical option, since the controller is then forced to read you the entire procedure, which clobbers the frequency delaying issuance of clearances to everyone behind you (reduction of frequency congestion being the original purpose of SID's and STAR's). You're not going to get some short-cut route just because you file NO SID/NO STAR.

Why is it in the AIM? Back when they started publishing SID's and STAR's, they were published in a separate volume of the terminal procedure books, and many pilots didn't feel like spending the extra bucks to subscribe to that extra book if they didn't normally operate where SID's/STAR's were common. The FAA responded to the complaints by allowing pilots who didn't carry the extra book to file NO SID/NO STAR so the controller reading the clearance would know they didn't have the book, and wouldn't waste time reading the clearance with the SID/STAR and then have to re-issue the whole thing including the SID/STAR procedure verbatim rather than just by name. It was never intended as a means to bypass the use of SID's and STAR's if you had the procedures in the cockpit, and since they are now part of the regular Terminal Procedures books along with the SIAP's, not a separate book, it's essentially an obsolescent appendage.
 
I am a ifr student now. I got a dp out of manta Maria, I will say it was fun, much more exciting then flying straight.
 
Every time I've been issued a SID (and that hasn't been that often where I typically fly), it's ended up being 90% vectors and occasionally a "proceed direct xyz" on the procedure. I suspect they assign it for lost comm purposes more than anything. But it isn't something that should freak you out. Just look at it and figure out what sequence of things you'd fly if the radio rolled over and died. Most of the time you'll just be on vectors.
 
That SID clearly says "RADAR Required" on the graphical view, and then the text says "Expect RADAR Vectors", so it's really just Vectors -- that's what you'll expect. No real need to decline it unless you didn't have the chart. (And remember back to your IFR training, technically you don't need the graphical chart portion of the SID to fly it at all... just the TEXT of the SID.)

The STAR is just a way for DEN TRACON to know where you're going if you go NORDO on the departure in a standarized way. Since you may not have received a vector at that point, it's probably going to make them clear out anything at or below your altitude that's IFR north of the DEN VOR to TXC VOR transition line, until you re-establish radio contact or they hear otherwise from you, since they'll assume you're joining the transition somewhere from DEN out to TXC.

If you stay NORDO that entire time, they'll know you read the SID and are expecting to climb to your cruise altitude 10 minutes after departure, and they'll start clearing anything at your assigned/filed altitudes along your route out ahead.

Remember, even in this day and age of constant radio contact and RADAR contact, the SYSTEM was designed to get you where you were going and clear the airspace all the way there, even if your radio went dead. Plus, if your transponder is still working, they're watching and will tag you up as a NORDO. Think of it as a SYSTEM with backups... the backup being the lowly flight strip and your filed speed and a timer. Controllers know how to do that, too. (And like pilots, are slowly forgetting how. LOL! Sad, but probably true.)

If you're VMC, best bet is to land as soon as practicable, call on the phone and cancel IFR, to let them clear out your route at that altitude for hundreds of miles. :) But technically, if you don't... they'll just keep handing you off as a NORDO all the way to your destination. Nowadays, they'll probably be annoyed at you for doing it instead of landing VMC, but ... lets say you launched out of KFNL and were hard IMC and NORDO... and the better weather is in Kansas... might as well press on.

If you're listening to the northeast sector radio out of DEN, you'll hear "Cleared Direct EXTAN" all day long... everyone's headed there. It's a popular spot in the sky. Try to be on your altitude by the time you get there... there's stuff stacked to the heavens at that spot.

The "NO SID/NO STAR" thing: If you ever hear congestion on KFNL's Clearance Delivery frequency, there will probably be some snowballs that aren't melting in hell somewhere.

What Ron says is generally true, but probably not at KFNL. He's used to flying in much more dense airspace. :)

You're actually talking to Denver CENTER (ZDV) for Clearance Delivery up there, I believe... when you call Fort Collins Clearance Delivery, unless they've run a phone line down to DEN TRACON. I forget where the RCO there goes, but I recall it being ZDV last time I used it. So you're probably just annoying a Center controller who has to work you into his sector as a pop-up from underneath it. Then almost immediately that controller will work a hand-off to DEN TRACON, going southeast. (I can ask a ZDV controller if anyone's really interested in where the FoCo Clearance Delivery frequency goes. They put it in mainly for Allegiant, and now they're not flying out of FoCo anymore...)

In fact, just from experience up there, if you did put NO SID/NO STAR in your comments, your clearance would probably just be "Maintain 9000, Direct EXTAN, Direct Thurman, then AS FILED, expect [filed altitude] 10 minutes after departure." if you were filed with an RNAV capable letter code.

They may even attempt that crap even without an RNAV letter code. Want some real fun? File /U. They'll often try to give you the STAR or the above amendment, to which you cheerfully reply, "Unable." You can't identify where EXTAN is without DME. They scratch their heads a lot at /U aircraft these days.

The really on-the-ball controllers will just give you the DENVER SIX SID, or they'l be less smart and amend it to "Maintain 9000, Radar Vectors, Direct Thurman, then AS FILED, expect [filed altitude] 10 minutes after departure."

So... one way to avoid the DEN computer-generated SID routing drama is just to ACTUALLY FILE the DENVER SIX SID and the transition VOR you want. Leaves you a bit on your own if you go NORDO, but since that SID is literally "RADAR Vectors to Assigned Route", it's one way to bypass the whole thing.

This will probably elicit a "Tricksy Hobbittssessss..." comment from the Center controller, but usually they'll just leave it as-is and send you on your way. :)

Your question about which way to turn, depends on the runway you depart from. The instructions for the turn direction and headings allowed are in the text description of the STAR in your charts.

As far as how to deal with the Garmin, I have no comment... I don't have one. Others have answered that. I'm just adding some real-world info about what they'll do up there near KFNL. :)
 
Of course more than half the time at IAD the controllers waste time by reading me the entire contents of the SID even after they issue it. I believe in all the time I was there I only once or twice got a clearance along the lines of:

Cleared to XXX via Capital 8 HANEY squawk 0423.

which is really all they have to say. Instead, I typically get.

Cleared to XXX via Capital 8 Radar Vectors HANEY as filed, maintain 3000 expect 6000 ten minutes after departure, departure frequency 126.45 squawk 0423.
 
As Nate pointed out not all aircraft are /R or /G. I flew the majority of my career in the Army as /U. That doesn't mean I can't fly out of airports that have SIDs. I've done a bunch VOR only. If I was in the situation above and didn't have the capability then you have to put "no DP or no SID" on your flight plan. From the Army instrument manual:

"If an aviator does not possess a preprinted DP or, for any other reason, does not wish to use aDP, the aviator is expected to advise ATC; notification is accomplished by filing “NO DP” inthe remarks section of the filed flight plan or by advising ATC. "
 
LDJones said:
Every time I've been issued a SID (and that hasn't been that often where I typically fly), it's ended up being 90% vectors and occasionally a "proceed direct xyz" on the procedure. I suspect they assign it for lost comm purposes more than anything. But it isn't something that should freak you out. Just look at it and figure out what sequence of things you'd fly if the radio rolled over and died. Most of the time you'll just be on vectors.
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Nevertheless, nobody should be sent for their instrument practical test without having been trained on SIDs and ODPs by their instructor, at least by discussion if not, due to lack of local availability, in the aircraft or sim.
 
Ron Levy said:
Nevertheless, nobody should be sent for their instrument practical test without having been trained on SIDs and ODPs by their instructor, at least by discussion if not, due to lack of local availability, in the aircraft or sim.
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Agreed, my CFII and I flew one partially one day to make sure I understood and would be ready.
 
SIDs I might tolerate but hell, they ARE on the written, I can't understand how you could be ignorant of them. But not knowing them probably just generate some tedious pilot-controller radio traffic.

Not knowing about ODPs can be a fatal omission. I had a ODP on my checkride fortunately (which not only demonstrated to the examiner that I knew enough to check for and fly them, but it also got my required holding pattern out of the way).
 
Velocity173 said:
As Nate pointed out not all aircraft are /R or /G. I flew the majority of my career in the Army as /U. That doesn't mean I can't fly out of airports that have SIDs. I've done a bunch VOR only. If I was in the situation above and didn't have the capability then you have to put "no DP or no SID" on your flight plan. From the Army instrument manual:

"If an aviator does not possess a preprinted DP or, for any other reason, does not wish to use aDP, the aviator is expected to advise ATC; notification is accomplished by filing “NO DP” inthe remarks section of the filed flight plan or by advising ATC. "
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Let's separate two issues.

One is the problem of not having RNAV capability, which means you shouldn't be issued an RNAV SID; that should be taken care of for you by the equipment suffix you filed. If they issue you an RNAV SID anyway, you politely inform them you are not RNAV-equipped and then they fix their mistake by issuing other routing (possibly a non-RNAV SID). Same goes for a SID requiring DME if you're /U.

The other is not having the SID charts aboard, which shouldn't be an issue today since the SID charts are now part of the standard terminal procedures package with both government and Jepp charts. Filing "NO DP" or "NO SID" in your flight plan just because you don't want the SID routing is counterproductive, since all that does is force the controller to read to you the full procedure you already have in your cockpit. You still have to fly the routing, but you add a penmanship exercise to your clearance copying and slow the flow of clearance delivery for everyone else.

The above goes for STARs, too.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Nevertheless, nobody should be sent for their instrument practical test without having been trained on SIDs and ODPs by their instructor, at least by discussion if not, due to lack of local availability, in the aircraft or sim.
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Agreed...but thought that was assumed.
 
LDJones said:
Every time I've been issued a SID (and that hasn't been that often where I typically fly), it's ended up being 90% vectors and occasionally a "proceed direct xyz" on the procedure. I suspect they assign it for lost comm purposes more than anything. But it isn't something that should freak you out. Just look at it and figure out what sequence of things you'd fly if the radio rolled over and died. Most of the time you'll just be on vectors.
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They are not for lost comm at all. If you were flying out of major air carrier airports, take KLAS as an example, you had better well fly the assigned SID correctly, which includes at KLAS and many larger airports, entering the correct runway as you load the SID into your Garmin flight plan. More than a few air carrier pilots have been burned for loading the wrong runway.
 
Thank you everskyward, LDJones, and denverpilot. I think I understand it now.

Just copy the clearance, read the few pertinent lines from the printed portion of the procedure, program it into the GPS but don't expect to use it all, then just take vectors unless I lose radio in which case I follow the written instructions on the second page of the SID.

You three were very helpful. Thanks. That's what makes chat sites like this very helpful.

As for those whose contribution to the discussion is to shoot me a remark like "I can't understand how you could be ignorant" ... I'll refrain from sharing my thoughts about your usefulness.
 
Ron Levy said:
Nevertheless, nobody should be sent for their instrument practical test without having been trained on SIDs and ODPs by their instructor, at least by discussion if not, due to lack of local availability, in the aircraft or sim.
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ayep. If none are convenient the cfi should draw up some of his/her own that include the various scenarios that can happen.
 
JHW said:
If none are convenient the cfi should draw up some of his/her own that include the various scenarios that can happen.
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Why would the instructor want to draw up some fake DP's (which might be incorrectly constructed or depicted) when there are a zillion real ones available free on the internet for training use?
 
denverpilot said:
That SID clearly says "RADAR Required" on the graphical view, and then the text says "Expect RADAR Vectors", so it's really just Vectors -- that's what you'll expect. No real need to decline it unless you didn't have the chart.
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It's radar vectors to join the departure, not a radar vector SID like the DENVER SIX. If, for example, the OP had gotten the GLD transition and had been vectored to join the departure at EXTAN he or she would have had to follow the route out to GLD.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Why would the instructor want to draw up some fake DP's (which might be incorrectly constructed or depicted) when there are a zillion real ones available free on the internet for training use?
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so that the student can fly one
 
One point -- a pilot nav SID that says "RADAR REQUIRED" is not the same as a radar vector SID. It will still have pilot nav portions you have to be able to navigate on your own, but ATC isn't allowed to assign it unles ATC can see what you're doing on their scope. A vector SID is just that -- radar vectors to join the assigned routing depicted on the L-chart, there is no preplanned pilot nav before the first point on that route, and it goes without saying that ATC radar must be operational for that SID to be assigned.
 
Henning said:
What if you can't make the climb gradients?
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You don't accept or use any procedure that has a climb gradient you cannot meet. If you mean KLAS they have an ODP that doesn't require a climb gradient. They might let you fly it at 2:00 AM. :lol:
 
Yes, if assigned to Henning it must say SVT REQUIRED.:lol:
 
Yeah SVT will reinforce what he should already know...he can't meet the climb gradient. :wink2:
 
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