How to deal w/ a problem pilot?

AdamZ

AdamZ

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Feb 24, 2005
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Montgomery County PA
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Adam Zucker
This is the type of pilot who will end up on the news one day and give us all a bad name so How would you handle this problem?

Pilot is based at a field perhaps 30nm from my home field. Apparently he comes down to my field for trips and overnights now and then. Flys in last night and stays over today shows up w/3pax and loads them into his plane. And zoom zoom launches into low ceilings. Seemed like he wanted to give his pax a quick circuit around the pattern. On departure he turns crosswind early at perhaps 200' ( our TPA is 1500 and AWOS instructs no turns till 1300" ) Noise abatment for neighbors who they are desperatly trying to keep happy. Anyway lineman I know gets on CTAF and reminds pilot of TPA and tells him he is flying pattern to low ( 200') neighbors yada yada.

Pilot radios back I AM PIC and basically tells the lineman to blow off and he will see him on the ground. When he's down he comes into the line desk and give the lineman a load of crap poking him in the shoulder while talking to him. Lineman somehow maintains his cool and does not take the bait. Guy then launches into IMC airfiles and goes home.

Our FBO keeps a card on every plane that comes to the field. This guy has a card from previous visits which says...."Turns out low" apparently he has been warned before.

So how do you deal with a jerk like this. Its a public use field so I don't think you can ban him from the field. Can you report him to the FSDO? If so what good will that do? This guy has a problem with the rules and authority. I would be great if they could slam this guy before he kills someone or slams into a house or creates a huge problem with the neighbors. They do know his name address and tail number
 
I'll probably get some heat for this...but let him be.

Sometimes what looks dangerous from the ground since you have little no experience in actually doing it isn't that bad. Not only that people tend to exaggerate things.

If he is turning crosswind that early and ****ing off all kinds of neighbors yeah he may be an ass and he may be dangerous. I'd have to see it before I decided.

I've turned some low crosswinds and I've done some pretty small patterns. Always done at controlled airports with permission from tower. I ask tower for permission to do tight patterns and state "would like to turn crosswind now". They approve--I do it. I had one guy get on the tower frequency one time and say something to the controller about my crosswind turn. I kept my cool and let the controller respond. The controller pretty promptly told the guy to F-- off in a slightly friendlier way. I don't turn crosswind in a situation that'll kill me if the engine quits. I do it because it puts me in a better position for an engine out as starting the crosswind turn early puts me on a perfect base for a perpendicular runway in case the engine quits. If I didn't do it and the engine quit I'd be crashing into a pretty crappy spot. Less of a problem in the day and a huge problem at night.

A generic pattern is not always the safest for every airport, pilot, and situation. Sometimes non-standard patterns are much safer. There really is no one size fits all in aviation. Sometimes a person might look at me and think it's dangerous because it's not what they do. Usually if I can get them to actually listen to what I'm saying they might see a little bit of my view and understand. I'm actually a very safety oriented pilot even though I'm often a bit different than the average pilot.

Basically what I'm saying is. It might not be that bad. Or he might be a dangerous ass that'll kill himself. Either way it's not worth your worry. You can't change him. Sometimes the FSDO can't even change him. He will fly no matter what and will keep doing it until he's dead.

Of course..what the hell do I know.. I've never seen him.
 
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AdamZ said:
This is the type of pilot who will end up on the news one day and give us all a bad name so How would you handle this problem?
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I'd call up the FSDO and ask to speak to a member of the FASST team. That's the new(ish) name for the Aviation Safety Counselors. They are trained to speak to jerks like this. Let's see him poke the FAAST Team member in the shoulder.

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
I'd call up the FSDO and ask to speak to a member of the FASST team. That's the new(ish) name for the Aviation Safety Counselors. They are trained to speak to jerks like this. Let's see him poke the FAAST Team member in the shoulder.

-Skip
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+1 to this. Perhaps it will save some passengers life in the future. We don't need pilots like this.
 
Originally Posted by Skip Miller
I'd call up the FSDO and ask to speak to a member of the FASST team. That's the new(ish) name for the Aviation Safety Counselors. They are trained to speak to jerks like this. Let's see him poke the FAAST Team member in the shoulder.

+2 to this! And with any hesitation at all! Regulations are set out for all of us to obey, for the safety of the public, our passengers, and ourselves.

I am sure the FSDO has ways of dealing with pilots like this. If they do not get the response they hope for out of him, they can always violate him for busting multiple regs. VFR mins, proximity to structures, vehicles, people, etc. (Or just violate him, period!)
 
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Adam, I'm not sure that you can do anything, unless you can make a case to the FSDO for reckless endangerment, which I'm not sure you can substantiate. I'm also not sure he actually busted any regs (what's smart and what's legal aren't the same thing). While most of us try to observe noise abatement procedures, I don't believe that they're mandatory unless enforced by ordinance like has happened in California. And that's a local enforcement issue, not FAA afaIk.

We had a guy at VAY back maybe 5 or 6 years or so who was much worse, especially when he did one of his frequent frequent runway incursions (he pulled out a number of times in front of friends who were on short final). He crashed his twin in a Vmc rollover after a prop strike. The Philly FSDO didn't want to do anything. It took a friend's repeated calls to the FAA hotline in DC to finally get some action (a 709 checkride, and curtailment of many of his privledges).

How about a GI blanket party for him? :D
 
At RHV, we're always fighting the community over noise and other GA-unfriendly folks. Most of the pilots here know the noise abatement procedures and do take them to heart.

If someone continuously came into my field bein an ass, I think i'd post up his photo on the terminal building. Maybe he and his passengers would see what a jerk he really is. Hopefully he'd straighten up.
 
Adam:

Two words: Video camera. And be sure you get clear shots not only of the tail number, but of the pilot as well. FSDO won't do a damn thing unless they can see it.
 
AirBaker said:
If someone continuously came into my field bein an ass, I think i'd post up his photo on the terminal building. Maybe he and his passengers would see what a jerk he really is. Hopefully he'd straighten up.
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I like this! Since noise abatement is Voluntary ,as I understand it, there prob. isn't much that can be done.
But, pointing out a jerk could be the answer.
 
I think about all you can do is report him with detailed information, times, and situations. If he were at my field, I would tell him that IMO he was being wreckless and although I wasn't sure if he was violating any CFRs I'd let the FSDO decide. It's sometimes hard to deal with anti-authority personality types.
If you don't do something and he kills himself or someone else, you will always wonder I you could have prevented it. If you do file a complaint and he gets into an accident anyway, you've done the best you could and at least tried.
And, the FBO could always refuse to sell him gas.
Bill
 
Thanks folks. Kent I like the video Idea timnig is the only issue. I did think about the FBO refusing to sell him gas too. Some interesting ideas and now it wasn't a 210 Capt Kirk.
 
Adam, even though it's a public use airport, why couldn't whomever owns it simply trespass him, if he's refusing to follow rules and is being abusive to the employees? The rules are posted clearly enough, he's been warned amply - why CAN'T they tell him to simply not come back?? Or at least use the threat of it to, shall we say, establish a dialogue? :)
 
Lessee...

Launches VFR into instrument conditions.

Busts minimum cloud clearance in the pattern (assuming class E.)

Commits assault.

More here than just noise abatement.

Only FBO on the field? I'd have a hard time servicing him or selling him fuel in the future on his happy little visits, but then again $ talks.
 
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The FBO should charge him one heck of an overnight fee/landing fee. If he reads the small print he will see it's a stupidity charge as well.

I had a tenant chew my project manager at one of my airport projects because he was there since time...yadda yadda yadda. He and I had a brief come to Jesus meeting...he didn't get anything he wanted and he learned to like it. Guys like that need that pokey finger of theirs ...well...um you follow my drift.

I hope the FBO gets tough with the dip stick!
 
Concur with getting the FAASTeam rep involved, but you may not have to call the FSDO to do that -- the local airport FAASTeam rep should be known to the FBO/airport management, but if not, ask the FSDO for the name/contact info.
 
etsisk said:
Adam, even though it's a public use airport, why couldn't whomever owns it simply trespass him, if he's refusing to follow rules and is being abusive to the employees? The rules are posted clearly enough, he's been warned amply - why CAN'T they tell him to simply not come back?? Or at least use the threat of it to, shall we say, establish a dialogue? :)
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If Best Buy can do it. . .
 
This does sound like exactly what the FAASTeam handles. They're not out to violate the guy, but to get him to mend his ways. Because of that, they don't need proof of a violation.
 
AdamZ said:
This is the type of pilot who will end up on the news one day and give us all a bad name so How would you handle this problem?

Pilot is based at a field perhaps 30nm from my home field. Apparently he comes down to my field for trips and overnights now and then. Flys in last night and stays over today shows up w/3pax and loads them into his plane. And zoom zoom launches into low ceilings. Seemed like he wanted to give his pax a quick circuit around the pattern. On departure he turns crosswind early at perhaps 200' ( our TPA is 1500 and AWOS instructs no turns till 1300" ) Noise abatment for neighbors who they are desperatly trying to keep happy. Anyway lineman I know gets on CTAF and reminds pilot of TPA and tells him he is flying pattern to low ( 200') neighbors yada yada.

Pilot radios back I AM PIC and basically tells the lineman to blow off and he will see him on the ground. When he's down he comes into the line desk and give the lineman a load of crap poking him in the shoulder while talking to him. Lineman somehow maintains his cool and does not take the bait. Guy then launches into IMC airfiles and goes home.

Our FBO keeps a card on every plane that comes to the field. This guy has a card from previous visits which says...."Turns out low" apparently he has been warned before.

So how do you deal with a jerk like this. Its a public use field so I don't think you can ban him from the field. Can you report him to the FSDO? If so what good will that do? This guy has a problem with the rules and authority. I would be great if they could slam this guy before he kills someone or slams into a house or creates a huge problem with the neighbors. They do know his name address and tail number
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Well, there is the 45 caliber method of making him feel really unwelcome, or a lynch mob, or just an effigy of him burning next time he arrives, any of those ought to really impress him. If the noise abatement proceedure is a municiple or county ordinance, have the PD/ Sherriff write him tickets for the violation. The line kid could involve TSA and the local law over the assault, and you could possibly help him sue the guy over emotional trauma from the event. There are also various ways I could come up with to make him feel unwelcome and make sure he didn't fly that airplane again that involve hydrofluoric acid, but that runs a bit of risk on your end, although giving him an IFR cockpit with a can of black Krylon....
 
Why waste any energy trying to be nice to the guy? 200' over houses? Sounds like less than 500' to me. Let him do a rug dance down at the FSDO explaining why he should get to keep his ticket. You don't need video proof, just a willing eyewitness to call in the violation to the FSDO.

Regards,
Joe
 
Other question: Does he own the plane, or is it rented or borrowed? A little unwelcome heat on the aircraft owner might help to curtail the issue.
 
"When he's down he comes into the line desk and give the lineman a load of crap poking him in the shoulder while talking to him"

Next time he does that, the FBO ought to have the b*lls to have him arrested for assault. That will likely accomplish two things:

1) keep him out of his plane for a while
2) keep him off your flield forever (more than likely)

Sounds like a winner to me.
 
Is poking someone on the shoulder really assault? What if the tables were turned? I find that a weak way to solve the problem, and doubt the cops would be interested in booking a guy for poking someone in the shoulder while talking to him. He should be taken to task for poor aeronautical judgment and/or violating FARs, period. You can't arrest someone for being a jerk.
 
Joe B said:
Why waste any energy trying to be nice to the guy? 200' over houses? Sounds like less than 500' to me. Let him do a rug dance down at the FSDO explaining why he should get to keep his ticket. You don't need video proof, just a willing eyewitness to call in the violation to the FSDO.

Regards,
Joe
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While I don't claim that what he did was safe, I don't see how the 500' applies since he was flying a pattern apparently (emphasis is mine):

§ 91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General.

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

(d) Helicopters. Helicopters may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section if the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface. In addition, each person operating a helicopter shall comply with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the Administrator.
 
RotaryWingBob said:
While I don't claim that what he did was safe, I don't see how the 500' applies since he was flying a pattern apparently (emphasis is mine):
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Bob,

Ron will have to post a link to the case, but I have read it - And the FAA has violated people for flying a pattern at less than TPA due to weather. Once you hit 500 feet, if it's not time to start descending for landing, you are no longer that low "for the purposes of takeoff or landing."
 
JohnR said:
Is poking someone on the shoulder really assault? What if the tables were turned? I find that a weak way to solve the problem, and doubt the cops would be interested in booking a guy for poking someone in the shoulder while talking to him. He should be taken to task for poor aeronautical judgment and/or violating FARs, period. You can't arrest someone for being a jerk.
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It's simple assault. Here the guy would get a ticket and have to come to municipal court and explain it. No arrest unless he gets uppity with the cops or refuses to sign the ticket...then it could become a custodial arrest.

I think who ever the airport management is should give the guy a criminal trespass warning and tell him to never come back. Then call the cops for criminal trespass when he does. At the very least the FBO could refuse him access to the FBO office and services and since he leases the space from someone, he could give him a criminal trespass warning for the area of the FBO.
 
Lisa is correct on the law. its almost the same here. Any way long short is it was a crummy weather Saturday and the FBO manager was a way so it was just the line guys, CFIs and desk clerk.

I was back at the field today and told the lineman I had some ideas for him ( Based upon all your good advice) I was happy that he volunteered that They had already upon consulting with the FBO owner to call the FSDO and speak with the FAAST guys. Hopefully at the least our friend will receive a little talking to and a ride courtesey of the FAA. I'm really happy they decided to do this.
 
Unfortunately, once a complaint has been filed, the FAA will not likely keep the FBO informed of its actions. They usually take control of the matter, and deal with , when and how they see fit.

Otherwise, it's alway nice to know when someone has gotten their just desserts, as it were!
 
colomtnflyer said:
Unfortunately, once a complaint has been filed, the FAA will not likely keep the FBO informed of its actions. They usually take control of the matter, and deal with , when and how they see fit.

Otherwise, it's alway nice to know when someone has gotten their just desserts, as it were!
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Actually, once a compaint has been filed with the FAA, they do nothing. They may tell you it's a civil matter and contact the local police.

FAA doesn't have money to run around chasing private pilots, unless they kill someone.
 
Actually, actual physical contact is a "battery" ... making me be fearful that you might actually physically contact me is "assault".

If a business calls the cops and tells them one of their employees was just assaulted, they will respond.

If they don't, I strongly suggest you get new cops.

JohnR said:
Is poking someone on the shoulder really assault? What if the tables were turned? I find that a weak way to solve the problem, and doubt the cops would be interested in booking a guy for poking someone in the shoulder while talking to him. He should be taken to task for poor aeronautical judgment and/or violating FARs, period. You can't arrest someone for being a jerk.
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mgkdrgn said:
Actually, actual physical contact is a "battery" ... making me be fearful that you might actually physically contact me is "assault".
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That will vary from state to state of course. We don't have "battery" in this state, but I have no clue about PA. Hopefully the FAAST guys will convince that moron that he doesn't want to find out either.
 
kgruber said:
Actually, once a compaint has been filed with the FAA, they do nothing. They may tell you it's a civil matter and contact the local police.

FAA doesn't have money to run around chasing private pilots, unless they kill someone.
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They don't?
You obviously haven't seen some of the cases the FAA works on.
 
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