How to assess need to upgrade avionics

jhoyt

jhoyt

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Jim
Many of the posts on avionic upgrades focus on glass panel stuff.

I'm a 70hr pilot in training about to schedule for check ride. Looking at 182s mainly for my own or w partner. Figure an initial budget around $50-60K. I am beginning to get a grip on good engine vs. bad engine, but not clear on avionics.

Here's an example:

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...-SKYLANE/1970-CESSNA-182N-SKYLANE/1320977.htm

Low time engine, interior/ex OK. Looking good. Then I look at the panel, and it looks like it needs work by the appearance, but maybe it would be fine for my goals.

How do you assess older avionics? I would like to be able to train for IFR but at most would use for getting out of 1000ft overcast. Not interested in G1000 linked to autopilot to shoot approaches to minimums. Would like a reasonable autopilot and radios/transponder that are reliable for VFR flying. Have iPad w FF now. There are an amazing variety of ways to go with this from what I see in the classifieds.

OR, if the old radios,transponders are fine to use, would put money into good engine monitor.

Everyone seems to say buy a plane with the avionics, etc… that you want. I guess my problem, is that I don't know EXACTLY what I need, and don't know how to assess older avionics,esp on the Cessnas. What would you all advise to put into a planes avionics for generic good quality avionics for functioning IFR potential?
 
What I think is needed is a Nav/Com with a glideslope and an IFR GPS/Com and an autopilot, then back it up with a (preferably mounted) VFR GPS. The autopilot doesn't need to have altitude hold, but that is nice. This gives you two radios, two units (in case one craps) a battery backup unit (the VFR GPS) and an IFR GPS.

The trouble is, right now, there is this ADSB mandate coming, and that is expensive. See if you can get an IFR GPS with WAAS (an WAAS Garming 430 or 530) so all you need add is the ADSB transponder.

A basic 6 pack is fine, glass panel is ok but not necessary, IMO. Others may differ.
 
That radio stack is pretty dated. It doesn't mean it doesn't work. I think the first question is what are your plans for the plane? If you are looking for the bare essentials, then that what you are going to get. Since you plan on getting your instrument rating, I would look for a waas gps. Its not mandatory for IFR, but it sure is nice. Even if that panel will fit your needs, you need to consider condition. That's a lot harder to determine from just pictures. A good prebuy inspection will give you an idea of the avionics condition as well as the rest of the plane. Also, dont forget about adsb coming up in 2020.

Narco is out of business, so you may or may not be able to have that transponder serviced. And if you could, I dont think I would be interested in dumping money into it. The KX 155 nav/com is a good radio, but getting long in the tooth and expensive to repair. Depends on the age. Hard to tell from the picture, but that looks to be an Apollo loran, if so, it doesnt matter what the condition is, LORAN is long gone. The kr 86 adf may or maynot be useful to you, I pulled mine.

Personally, I would want a good auido panel, nav/com/gps, good 2nd nav/com with cdi and a (preferably) digital transponder. Some will tell you to always buy the plane with the avionics you want. I am a little different. I want a good engine and clean airframe. If I have to upgrade avionics, thats fine, its cheaper than an engine and I will get the avionics exactly like I want. The key to this is the price.

As you gain experience, you will be able to get an idea about what you think a plane is worth based on the items that are important to you (paint, interior, avionics, service history, etc.) Whether you and the seller agree is a whole other conversation.
 
The Appollo 604 if I'm not mistaken is a LORAN reciever, useless now that the gov't turned off the transmitters. Not sure but I'm guessing the box just under that is a Comm? Is the bottom nav indicator a self contained Nav/DME? The ad doesn't say.
All in all and assuming the airframe and engine are good I'd say it's a good place to start. When finances allow you might want to consider replacing the LORAN and the Comm and the self contained Nav/DME with something like a good used GNS430W which would also help you with the WAAS position source to comply with the ADS-B out mandate coming in 2020.
But for now the existing package (assuming everything but the Appollo 604 works) would get you by just fine including going for the instrument rating.
 
Solid looking airplane, personally I would prefer a 430W or 530W to go along with the KX155, that would give you two glideslopes. The ADF is fine if it works, if not they make pretty good door stops. ;) The Loran is just additional empty weight. ;)
You can certainly use it as is for IFR, but it's not ideal for me to use IFR.
If you think you want upgraded avionics, keep looking, even buying this one at $50K, you can easily end up with $70-75K in it before you're done. :eek:
 
A glass panel adds no capability. It is what the airliners and all are going to. It may be desirable, but doesn't add much.

The easiest setup to obtain an IFR rating with is a 6pack, two nav/coms, one with a glideslope.
 
I sort of agree with you, I can fly IFR without a GPS, I just don't want to! :D I think a glass panel is overkill for a 40+ year old single, but an IFR GPS makes flying IFR much easier. :yes:
With your two nav/com, on GS set up, it does at least eliminate the need for perform an NDB approach! :yes:

coloradobluesky said:
A glass panel adds no capability. It is what the airliners and all are going to. It may be desirable, but doesn't add much.

The easiest setup to obtain an IFR rating with is a 6pack, two nav/coms, one with a glideslope.
Click to expand...
 
Nothing wrong with most of the avionics, as others have said, and gauges look great.

Pop out the Loran, the ADF and the Xpndr. Sell them.
Buy a 430W, a KT76C an a KAP140.

That will give you your /g and keep the cost down. You'll have your dual com/nav and a slope with the HSI head. You could swap out the 155 for a 165, but that's unnecessary.

Boom, done.
 
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IFR gps and an auto pilot,minimum for single pilot IFR.
 
Shane, what would you ballpark that upgrade?
430W used installed with indicator. $8-10K?
KT76A used, $2K installed
KAP 140 $10-15K???
Plus all the other little things that add up at the avionics shop, intercom, PTT, audio panel etc. So, $25-30K maybe?? :dunno:

Archammer said:
Nothing wrong with most of the avionics, as others have said, and gauges look great.

Pop out the Loran, the ADF and the Xpndr. Sell them.
Buy a 430W, a KT76C an a KAP140.

That will give you your /g and keep the cost down. You'll have your dual com/nav and a slope with the HSI head. You could swap out the 155 for a 165, but that's unnecessary.

Boom, done.
Click to expand...
 
If you can find one with everything in it for 75k it will be a better deal. You will still have to deal with ADSB. Make sure the IFR GPS is WAAS. Non WAAS wont work to provide the GPS data the ADSB transponder needs.
 
coloradobluesky said:
If you can find one with everything in it for 75k it will be a better deal. You will still have to deal with ADSB. Make sure the IFR GPS is WAAS. Non WAAS wont work to provide the GPS data the ADSB transponder needs.
Click to expand...

Good advice from all. I don't think I could get everything done locally so would be looking at fair amount of down time in another city. I'll keep looking and assess the $75k point.
 
jhoyt said:
Good advice from all. I don't think I could get everything done locally so would be looking at fair amount of down time in another city. I'll keep looking and assess the $75k point.
Click to expand...

The tough thing about buying an airplane is the sellers often don't see the difference between their outdated panels and ones with good up to date stuff. They think their's is worth just as much as the ones with the fancy pants panel! :mad2: Same with engine times, 1800 hours since O/H, even if it's running great is run out, they price them the same as one with 500 SMOH :dunno: Just keep looking and act quickly once you find what you want, well equipped, fairly priced 182's sell pretty fast! :D
 
I don't think you'll get much for the Loran if you want to sell that. ;)

If you want to fly single pilot IFR even the simplest autopilot is a huge safety increase.

I think STEC 20's can be installed for about $9k. What are Garmin 430w's going for installed in a Cessna these days? $13K?

If your budget is tight consider upgrading to a King KLN-94, those are running about $2.5K for the box, plus something for the annunciator and possibly a CDI.

When ADS-B comes around you'd just get one that includes a GPS as part of the package.
 
coloradobluesky said:
A glass panel adds no capability. It is what the airliners and all are going to. It may be desirable, but doesn't add much.

The easiest setup to obtain an IFR rating with is a 6pack, two nav/coms, one with a glideslope.
Click to expand...

BINGO

My GNS430W will shoot EVERY approach a G1000 glass panel can shoot.

Doesn't need anything, as long as everything works you could use it for IFR training for sure!

As for "dated" that's a term people with more money than smarts use.

You don't NEED an autopilot for IFR training (better to not have it for training infact), or a GPS, once you learn the basics of IFR you could learn a GNS430 in a flight or two, ain't rocket surgery.

Keep in mind doing a major panel upgrade with new equipment is for suckers, you'll NEVER get close to the money back out (ask Ron about selling that 310 he put glass in). Buying new avionics is like buying the latest computer, outdated in a week and worth 1/3rd.

Does the panel provide the capability you need?


The only thing that I would for sure address is that strange divider between the seats, not sure about you but I don't fly with people that I feel I need a mini wall between lol
 
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