How often since ASEL

[dogman]

How often do fly with an instructor after receiving Your Cert.

I find a good instructor and try to once a month I have learned so much since finishing my private . I tried to find instructors that are good at different things. Bush flying ,Mountain, Busy airports, Class B and so on. I am about ready to start my instrument. 125hrs in 15 months Been a lot of places and tried to get good experience.

Let us know what you do.

Dogman

 

[gismo]

How often do fly with an instructor after receiving Your Cert.

I find a good instructor and try to once a month I have learned so much since finishing my private . I tried to find instructors that are good at different things. Bush flying ,Mountain, Busy airports, Class B and so on. I am about ready to start my instrument. 125hrs in 15 months Been a lot of places and tried to get good experience.

I try to learn something from any other pilot or CFI I fly with, but sometimes the only thing I learn is that we disagree on something. Part of that problem is likely due to my having way more real world experience than most (but certainly not all) young CFI's.

As to the frequency, it really varries, and I have no set schedule. I doubt that I every went two full years between flights with a CFI though.

 

[poadeleted20]

As a Part 141 instructor, I get a pilot/instructor proficiency ride with the Chief Instructor every 12 months.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Your survey has mutually exclusive choices. I participate in the Wings program but also fly with a CFI more than once a year, but not within any defined period. If I'm rusty on instrument work, getting checked out in a new plane, or just feel there are things on which I'd like to work, I call one of several CFIs that I know and go over things. Probably never longer than a year inbetween, but not at specific intervals.



Dave

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

How often do fly with an instructor after receiving Your Cert.

I find a good instructor and try to once a month I have learned so much since finishing my private . I tried to find instructors that are good at different things. Bush flying ,Mountain, Busy airports, Class B and so on. I am about ready to start my instrument. 125hrs in 15 months Been a lot of places and tried to get good experience.

Let us know what you do.

Dogman

Wings minimum yearly, but usually something special like hooded spin & unusual attitude recoveries thrown in.

 

[Jim Chumley]

I am a renter and find that a checkride is necessary when ever I go to a new FBO. Does this count for your poll?

I moved a couple of years ago. I checked out at two different rental agencies on 172s (twice - 172N & 172SP), Warriors, Cheetah and an Arrow. Plus, of course, I had a BFR somewhere in there.

I moved again last fall and checked out at two more FBOs...Warrior, 172s and Arrow. You could say that I had instruction in one form or another, eight times in the past 2-3 years.

For the poll, I checked the block for BFR.

Jim

 

[EdFred]

And I don't/haven't/don't plan on any of your choices for at least the next I don't know how many years. I plan on finishing the commercial this year and then add on another rating every 12 to 24 months until I have all the ratings I'm eligible for.

 

[grattonja]

Every few months for me. If not a new rating or add on, like complex, or high performance, then I try to get some partial panel IFR work and maybe go somewhere I might not otherwise go. Or night IFR, or something different that keeps my skills up.

Jim G

 

[AirBaker]

Does this include flying with other pilots of greater experience? What about with all the CFII buds that you go flying with?

 

[dogman]

Part of my problem is I live in a rural area and the airport I fly out is very nice but not very active. It would be great to find pilots like many of you who I could jump in with and go fly.

Many times If I want to expand my experience I find an instructor and fly to them and we go out.
Its even hard to find any one just to take a short hop with.

I did find one fellow locally that we went on a 200ml x\c with, he scared the crap out me.

I will continue to the Commercial and plan to Get my Seaplane rating. Just would like to get more practical exp. with some of the GOOD well seasoned pilots.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Part of my problem is I live in a rural area and the airport I fly out is very nice but not very active. It would be great to find pilots like many of you who I could jump in with and go fly.

Many times If I want to expand my experience I find an instructor and fly to them and we go out.
Its even hard to find any one just to take a short hop with.

I did find one fellow locally that we went on a 200ml x\c with, he scared the crap out me.

I will continue to the Commercial and plan to Get my Seaplane rating. Just would like to get more practical exp. with some of the GOOD well seasoned pilots.

Yoy gotta tell us all what he did that was so scary...

 

[Henning]

How often do fly with an instructor after receiving Your Cert.

I find a good instructor and try to once a month I have learned so much since finishing my private . I tried to find instructors that are good at different things. Bush flying ,Mountain, Busy airports, Class B and so on. I am about ready to start my instrument. 125hrs in 15 months Been a lot of places and tried to get good experience.

Let us know what you do.

Dogman

I fly with a CFI either for ratings or a BFR. The annoying thing is since I move around so much, I end up doing my BFRs with some time building kid and spend half my time dispelling myths and OWTs that they try to teach me and explaining systems to them because they've got it all wrong, half of them can't explain how the fuel system works in a plane they are checking me out in when the manual is quite clear. I've even had to show them how to measure mileage without a super whazzit with protactor, this is someone who has a few hundred hours. If they really annoy me with 1 mile patterns, I show them what a "Short Approach" really looks like. I come out of a BFR and typically I feel like I should be the one charging money. I guess I'm spoiled because I had really good instructors coming up through the ratings. I still think that 1500 hrs with at least 250 hrs as a WORKING (not necessarilly an aircarrier, but a job in which you've had to deal with real "GO" pressures) pilot as a prereq for CFI. Ron has it dead right when he says that the biggest problem with pilots is decision making, and the greatest problem in that line is that the decision making is being taught by people who have not yet learned those skills themselves. It's an issue of not just the blind leading the blind, but the blind teaching the blind, and lessons first taught are the hardest to forget, even when what is taught is wrong.

 

[poadeleted3]

snip
I still think that 1500 hrs with at least 250 hrs as a WORKING (not necessarilly an aircarrier, but a job in which you've had to deal with real "GO" pressures) pilot as a prereq for CFI. Ron has it dead right when he says that the biggest problem with pilots is decision making, and the greatest problem in that line is that the decision making is being taught by people who have not yet learned those skills themselves. It's an issue of not just the blind leading the blind, but the blind teaching the blind, and lessons first taught are the hardest to forget, even when what is taught is wrong.

I don't necessarily disagree, but what would take the place of flight instructing as an entry level job? I could see cargo runs, maybe, but I don't know if there ever were enough of those jobs, and with check hauling going the way of the dodo sooner rather than later, there will be fewer still.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I fly with a CFI either for ratings or a BFR. The annoying thing is since I move around so much, I end up doing my BFRs with some time building kid and spend half my time dispelling myths and OWTs that they try to teach me.

Just had my BFR this morning, in fact. The CFI has been instructing a little over a year, but is the only local tailwheel qualified instructor I know (who doesn't work for the FAA). We went flying, did the usual stuff plus some spins. Got back for the ground portion and he asked if there was anything I had any questions on. I spent the next hour trying to stump him. Succeeded more often than I would have liked. Paid the flight school $98.40 for the pleasure, which I consider the cost of the signature in my book.

 

[Henning]

I don't necessarily disagree, but what would take the place of flight instructing as an entry level job? I could see cargo runs, maybe, but I don't know if there ever were enough of those jobs, and with check hauling going the way of the dodo sooner rather than later, there will be fewer still.

Right seat of commuter carriers, and they are a growing business. 250hrs. Get real experience real quick. 250 hrs is plenty to learn how to fly (especially if you have more qualified instructors), which is all SIC really needs, and at that point they can learn real world decision making from the person sitting next to them 8 hrs a day in actual conditions. Anything goes wrong except for Captain incapacitated the Ops Manual states Captain in Command anyway, and if Capt is incapacitated, a 250 hr pilot with 20 hrs in type should be able to get the craft in.

 

[poadeleted3]

Right seat of commuter carriers, and they are a growing business. 250hrs. Get real experience real quick. 250 hrs is plenty to learn how to fly (especially if you have more qualified instructors), which is all SIC really needs, and at that point they can learn real world decision making from the person sitting next to them 8 hrs a day in actual conditions. Anything goes wrong except for Captain incapacitated the Ops Manual states Captain in Command anyway, and if Capt is incapacitated, a 250 hr pilot with 20 hrs in type should be able to get the craft in.

Makes sense to me. I know that I've flown with one instructor who's dangerous attitudes would have gotten him weeded out pronto by an experienced left seater. Instead, he gets to "teach" students who don't know any better.

I've also flown with an instructor who didn't know as much about the Skyhawk as I do. Considering I was paying for a checkout, that really shouldn't have happened!! Especially not considering my whopping 135 hours or so. For example, did you all know that the Skyhawk SP will glide better than the older Skyhawks (with 40 degree flaps) because it has an 18 inch greater wingspan?

 

[bbchien]

At least once per year, preferably two but always in spring. Funny this string should come up, just got my spring IPC.....with the area DPE airman. About the only guy who still has stuff to teach....and that he does.

 

[dogman]

Yoy gotta tell us all what he did that was so scary...

His giving me aride backhome. Took my plane for some maintenence On the way over he is flying his Warr. over same alltitude 1\2 ml south I can see him. As we cross oversouth of an airport I announce on the unicom were are passing over and where we are and Alt. A Baron answeres back and is flying thru the same air headed to land at this airport. I tell him where I am we find each other bu the can not see my partner. MY Partner must have been listening to the ball game. I see th two converging and the Baron makes the War. at about a 1\4 mil. The baron crosse in front of the War. He never seen it.Or heard the conversation He had turned the radio down until getting to his destination.

We got there he made one call for arrival in the airport. 2 other planes in the patern be sides us.

When we were all done talking with My Mech. He asked if we needed fuel in the Warr. I said we surely do, but my ol Pard saud we got plenty. It was 2hrs and 20min. Going over. It would be at least that long coming back. Head wind now. I did the math I said no way we have now reserve. He says we can make it.
Kiks the tires ligh the fires and we are taxing. NO run up no fuel pump on nothing. Lines upin the run way SLAMS the throttle foward and Yanks the Warr. off the run way.

Itsa getting a little dark as I am pointing out all the towns and airport along our route. He is amazed a how I can find all these with the chart He was as staring at hi GPS trying to get it Back LIT so he wouldnt get lost. Never got it had to get out the flashlight to watch the GPS. I told him many times don't worry stay on this heading and we will be righ on ,We are right on course I know exactly were we are.

Did some GSpeed calcualtions and said WE NEED FUEL WE WILL NOT MAKE IT!!!
Finally showed him my calculations to convince him to land We had an hour further to fly and the Warr. ahd 5gal usable when we filled her up.

Same kind of take off Slam bam.

It is now dark NIGHT as we approach OUR HOME FIELD hE SAYS HE IS NOT NIGHT CURRENT AND HADDEN'T DONE IT FOR A WHILE. i SAID DONE WHAT?
lAND AT NIGHT! i SAID YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME. He says I CAN DO IT.
I said you want me to take the landing Iam current and lots of Warr. time.
NO WAY. YOUR FLYIN MY PLANE

OK I'LL DO THE RADIO STUFF YOU FLY.

Every thing is good until we try to line up with the run way. as we are coming down are left wing hanging over the left side of the runway, hes not correcting, I mention it, He does nothing says nothing.
Time to flare HE IS NOT, I look at speed a little fast but OK, Still not flaring.
I Say FLARE he does not. HE IS STILL NOT . I pull back on the yoke hard and fast just in time for us to slam down HARD and Some bounce off the Nose Wheel. WE settle back and he almost losses directional control.

THATS HOW MY OL PARD SCARRED THE CRAP OUT OF ME.

HE WAS A 400HR PP I AT THAT TIME HAD ABOUT 90HRS TOTAL.

I WILL NEVER GO WITH HIM AGAIN WH KNOW WHAT WOUND HAVE HAPPENNED IF I HAD NOT CAUGHT THE FLARE.

 

[RobertGerace]

Henning,

I agree completely, and I don't have near the experience that you do. But I've spent enough time in my airplane (and others) teaching CFI/MEI types that I decided they were more a liability than an asset.

That being said, I've still got tons to learn...but my choices for where to get that information are becoming few and far between.

I go to SimCom twice per year -- and while that makes me feel good about IR proficiency and OEI situations -- it does nothing for using all the tools available on the ground and in the air to make the right combination of decisions that will:

1) complete the mission as close to on-time as possible
2) not end up in harms way during the mission

I am now learning some pretty cool stuff, but unfortunately I have to learn it on my own...

1) How to scan clouds using radar
2) when is it safe to go around weather, and when is it a trap?
3) if you have to go around, which way do you go?...for each type of weather
4) which altitudes are better/worse if you have no choice but to go through weather
5) how do you judge distances at different altitudes and weather and time-of-day
6) the real meaning of all the different types of big-picture weather-makers to pilots, how to plan for them, what are the traps, what are the outs, how do you know if it is safe to continue?
7) the ability to make minute-by-minute decisions about changing conditions
8) smart fuel management
9) when is 'tired' too-tired...how to tell when to press-on or land and sleep
10) how to stay awake when flying tired
11) how to force yourself past complacency regarding: checklists, scanning for traffic, fuel, engines, course, heading, and altitude (the last two especially when on autopilot)
12) keeping dicipline to constantly tune VOR's and have the enroute on my lap, and know where I am on it at any given moment
13) When to negotiate with ATC and when to tell them how it is
14) When is it safer for all involved for me to blast into an airport hot on a short approach...or to circle overhead and enter a normal pattern
15) night IMC...still fighting illusions...no trouble trusting instruments...but the need to trust them against bodily sensations just doesn't seem to go away
16) a million lessons about ice
17) I could go on for days...

Anyone less than the 1,500 hour guy you described wouldn't have a clue.

Sigh...

 

[Diana]

How often do fly with an instructor after receiving Your Cert.

My husband (CFI) rides with me a lot. He has found it to be more conducive to marital harmony if he gives me instruction or comments about my flying only when I ask him to.

Let us know what you do.

For the past several months, I have been getting aerobatic instruction all across the country. It's hard to find a good aerobatic instructor who really knows how to do aerobatics in a Citabria. The search for a good aerobatic instructor continues.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I cannot recall the last time I took a (b)FR.

 

[Carol]

I cannot recall the last time I took a (b)FR.

I've never done one. Over time I have either gotten a new rating/certificate or done the Wings thing.

 

[gismo]

I've never done one. Over time I have either gotten a new rating/certificate or done the Wings thing.

I try to do a new rating instead of a BFR, but last year the end of the 24 th month was going to be too close to my planned checkride for comfort so I talked my CFI for the ASEL commercial to cover the requirements and sign me off for the BFR as part of the prep work.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

His giving me aride backhome. Took my plane for some maintenence On the way over he is flying his Warr. over same alltitude 1\2 ml south I can see him. As we cross oversouth of an airport I announce on the unicom were are passing over and where we are and Alt. A Baron answeres back and is flying thru the same air headed to land at this airport. I tell him where I am we find each other bu the can not see my partner. MY Partner must have been listening to the ball game. I see th two converging and the Baron makes the War. at about a 1\4 mil. The baron crosse in front of the War. He never seen it.Or heard the conversation He had turned the radio down until getting to his destination.

We got there he made one call for arrival in the airport. 2 other planes in the patern be sides us.

When we were all done talking with My Mech. He asked if we needed fuel in the Warr. I said we surely do, but my ol Pard saud we got plenty. It was 2hrs and 20min. Going over. It would be at least that long coming back. Head wind now. I did the math I said no way we have now reserve. He says we can make it.
Kiks the tires ligh the fires and we are taxing. NO run up no fuel pump on nothing. Lines upin the run way SLAMS the throttle foward and Yanks the Warr. off the run way.

Itsa getting a little dark as I am pointing out all the towns and airport along our route. He is amazed a how I can find all these with the chart He was as staring at hi GPS trying to get it Back LIT so he wouldnt get lost. Never got it had to get out the flashlight to watch the GPS. I told him many times don't worry stay on this heading and we will be righ on ,We are right on course I know exactly were we are.

Did some GSpeed calcualtions and said WE NEED FUEL WE WILL NOT MAKE IT!!!
Finally showed him my calculations to convince him to land We had an hour further to fly and the Warr. ahd 5gal usable when we filled her up.

Same kind of take off Slam bam.

It is now dark NIGHT as we approach OUR HOME FIELD hE SAYS HE IS NOT NIGHT CURRENT AND HADDEN'T DONE IT FOR A WHILE. i SAID DONE WHAT?
lAND AT NIGHT! i SAID YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME. He says I CAN DO IT.
I said you want me to take the landing Iam current and lots of Warr. time.
NO WAY. YOUR FLYIN MY PLANE

OK I'LL DO THE RADIO STUFF YOU FLY.

Every thing is good until we try to line up with the run way. as we are coming down are left wing hanging over the left side of the runway, hes not correcting, I mention it, He does nothing says nothing.
Time to flare HE IS NOT, I look at speed a little fast but OK, Still not flaring.
I Say FLARE he does not. HE IS STILL NOT . I pull back on the yoke hard and fast just in time for us to slam down HARD and Some bounce off the Nose Wheel. WE settle back and he almost losses directional control.

THATS HOW MY OL PARD SCARRED THE CRAP OUT OF ME.

HE WAS A 400HR PP I AT THAT TIME HAD ABOUT 90HRS TOTAL.

I WILL NEVER GO WITH HIM AGAIN WH KNOW WHAT WOUND HAVE HAPPENNED IF I HAD NOT CAUGHT THE FLARE.

Good & lucky lessons...

I wonder if he learned anything ?

 

[bbchien]

Good & lucky lessons...

I wonder if he learned anything ?

Probably not. He's just the sort of pilot we cannot educate. Kinda in the same category of the 69 y.o. guy who lit off to the White House last week.

"Sorry, I'm busy that weekend" is how I respond to the request to put my signature in the guy's logbook. You cannot win. Only lose.

And, looking at the poll, it just reinforces that "GA pilots do not train enough".

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

All the posts about pilot/CFI hours & experience should prove the hours have little meaning. The CFI signs/doesn't sign logbooks because they've bought off the FAA & have also earned the authority to do so.

From then on it goes without saying that if some pilot has umpteen thousand hours in type they sure oughta be able to teach some things about that aircraft. But judgement and CRM... some people have it & use it, others had it & lost it, others didn't have it but faked it to get by certain ratings hurddles, the list is as long as the ranks of pilots.

Beyond the above, any pilot of any rating that accomplishes the more demanding tasks of aviation with skill will be seen as so by those that are cognizant of those demands, whether by experience or academics, as skilled. Conversely they will often be viewed by others that don't have the skill or knowledge as unsafe.

 

[Henning]

Henning,

I agree completely, and I don't have near the experience that you do. But I've spent enough time in my airplane (and others) teaching CFI/MEI types that I decided they were more a liability than an asset.

That being said, I've still got tons to learn...but my choices for where to get that information are becoming few and far between.

I go to SimCom twice per year -- and while that makes me feel good about IR proficiency and OEI situations -- it does nothing for using all the tools available on the ground and in the air to make the right combination of decisions that will:

1) complete the mission as close to on-time as possible
2) not end up in harms way during the mission

I am now learning some pretty cool stuff, but unfortunately I have to learn it on my own...

1) How to scan clouds using radar
2) when is it safe to go around weather, and when is it a trap?

<snip all sorts of real world issues>

17) I could go on for days...

Anyone less than the 1,500 hour guy you described wouldn't have a clue.

Sigh...

That's always been my point on this stuff. Most 250hr-500hr CFII-MEI guys haven't had to deal with much weather because for most of their students it's "No Go", same for recreational pilots. That's why I say on top of the 1500 hr min, 250 has to be occupational, because that's where the pressure lies and that's where you push the envelope beyond the limits, which regrettably is how most of us learn where the edge of the envelope is. (My windshear crash was on a day that I knew I shouldn't be out there spraying crops with a nasty and volitile front coming, but the contract was specific to dates and some of these large agricultural canning companies expect it to happen and can be very punitive and even litigeous if it doesn't) We won't even mention that there are very few low time instructors out there who have experience operating a radar, much less interpreting what they are looking at. It's a sad state of affairs. Too bad you aren't in Southern Cal, I could turn you on to a couple excellent instructors, one of them even owns(ed?) a 310R and was an instructor for Flight Safety, although Steve Saiz would be my first pick.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Bruce:

The poll doesn't allow eveything to be considered. As I stated, more than once a year, but it doesn't ask how much dual and how much training time. RTC was three days when I came to see you, that was following 25 hours of dual to get the multi rating. Wings, IPC and several check outs with a CFI last year. This year, at least 10 hours of dual in the 58P and completed Wings in January.

So, please don't judge just on the poll. That being said, some folks that aren't flying much and aren't going up with CFIs may need to fly with other folks some that are flying a lot and have more experience if they don't want to go with a CFI. Find someone flyin a lot and fly the right seat if nothing else.

Best,

Dave

 

[bbchien]

Bruce:

The poll doesn't allow eveything to be considered.
Dave

Dave, you're not the guy to which the comment is aimed. I'm thinking of a 69 year old guy who doesn't fly much, doesn't brief much, doesn't navigate much, and flies to the White House. Doesn't recognize intercept, doesn't turn, doesn't....oh heck. Probably got his BFR through wings and considered that enough.

That's why I always say, like Henning, that until you have had to push the capability envelope to get utility, you're not flying enough to stay competent. If you don't have to do that, training every 6 months of some real-time sort should be mandatory. Somebody like Bob Gerace is at the Master's Degree level of study- both ownership and operations. An IPC, a BFR and inquiry into whatever is bugging him is probably sufficient.

I find I have less and less tolerance for the "bubba pilot". We don't want him, we don't need him, he'll eventually ruin it for all of us.

That was very uncharitable of me, but that's the facts. Personally, I think if you are training with the right person, 25 hours per year of total flight time is probably enough. But it has to be the right sort of 25 hours. The little light in the thought cloud above your head needs to be "on".

And, the initials CFI after your name do NOT automatically qualify you to teach at the masters level. Some of my biggest "ahas!" were given to me by pilots who aren't teaching...many are expired CFIs but their wisdom comes from being way out there....and it shows.

I just accomplished another spring IPC. I don't need to have it, I just want it. This one was replete with below commitment to land in the multi- one engine inoperative (throttle), airspeed just decaying to Vysse -5, when out comes the hypothetical cow onto the runway. Firewalled (well, NOT in a turbo'd ship but 40" MP) cleaned up, back under the hood, NOT pitching over but watching the VSI creep into one needles' width positive and holding it there. 60 degree banked turns under the hood within 100 feet of altitude. He didn't bother with the things he knows I do well. He went for the gold. Being a student is a GOOD thing. Just get the right JEDI to teach you. And $60 was CHEAP.

 

[Henning]

Just get the right JEDI to teach you. And $60 was CHEAP.

Funny you should say that, my best instructors were quite inexpensive. My IR instructor was $35hr and that came with a 172...Wet! I did also put about 10hrs of labor into same said 172s annual, but still, what a deal, and that was with a 50,000+hr corporate pilot/CFII-MEI. Talk about a guy who could put you through the paces.

 

[wsuffa]

Dave, you're not the guy to which the comment is aimed. I'm thinking of a 69 year old guy who doesn't fly much, doesn't brief much, doesn't navigate much, and flies to the White House. Doesn't recognize intercept, doesn't turn, doesn't....oh heck. Probably got his BFR through wings and considered that enough.

That's why I always say, like Henning, that until you have had to push the capability envelope to get utility, you're not flying enough to stay competent. If you don't have to do that, training every 6 months of some real-time sort should be mandatory. Somebody like Bob Gerace is at the Master's Degree level of study- both ownership and operations. An IPC, a BFR and inquiry into whatever is bugging him is probably sufficient.

Agree, Bruce, 100%.

And, I was just talking about this a dinner tonight with Missa and my second CFI.

It took doing a lot (1-2 a month) of long (1000 nm) cross-countries for business that really drove the lesson home. I still learn something every flight.

I train because I want to. I do Wings to make it "legal" as a BFR. I have my regular IPC scheduled next week. This after recently completing the commercial.

$60 is "free" when compared to the consequences....

 

[dogman]

So how does some one like me get that kind of experience. I never wanted to be a Professional pilot I just want all the knowledge and experience of a Pro pilot.

I want to be a Pro pilot for myself and those I carry.

Any suggestions for a 172 owner that will travel a lot to get the experience besides trial and error?

Thought about asking a GOOD CFII to come along on some trips with me for business or pleasure. Going fishing for 7 days in Northern Ontario in June. I pay his way for Me getting the Experience. I wonder if it may be hard to get A GOOD CFII to go for some thing like that. I know everyone of the crappy CFIIs would!!

I will go a long distance to find people with real world experience for training
I also think I would rather Do my IR with a Well seasoned CFII 200mls away at one of those accelerated schools. Compared to the BUBBA CFII here Locally

The other problem is the some CFII have 20,000hrs but most of it was at FL36 < I will never fly that high over the weather.

Is hard to find CFII's with LOTS of x/c time below 18,000msl???

Leaving later today Wichita KS to put on a week end Seminar . This would be another chance I could have paid an instructor to go along.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Like everything in life, the best folks are the hardest to find. Keep at it. Fly frequently, read, stay active on aviation web boards and fly with some guys that seem very capable to you: like a Bob if he's near you. Like anything where you wish to excell, study, train, execute!

Flying can be very expensive. Don't think others, even those flying impressive aircraft, don't know that. I love to have someone flying with me that takes it seriously, and know they all can't afford to be in my aircraft.

Bruce:
Know what you mean and agree. There are constant busts of airspace around Waco here. Mostly from guys that just say they didn't know about the prohibited area or didn't know where they were. If they had an equipment failure, I could see a mitigating factor, but most of these guys just aren't as professional as you are. In everything, leaders pay for the 10 or 15% of the bubbas or folks that don't care. Heck, most laws are passed in reaction to this group of folks, in your profession and mine. When in the service, we learned that a platoon could only walk as far or as fast as the weakest members--remember?? We need to provide all the opportunity to these folks we can; then, if they still screw up--there should be sure and swift punishment!!

Keep doin what you're doin!! You're an inspiration to others. I'm gonna get up there sometime and let you teach me how to really fly this B-58P!!

Best,

Dave

 

[Toby]

Personally, I think if you are training with the right person, 25 hours per year of total flight time is probably enough. But it has to be the right sort of 25 hours. The little light in the thought cloud above your head needs to be "on".

I think that as a person has a greater number of years experience behind him, he can fly fewer hours and not "lose" as much. When it's still a relatively new experience and not that ingrained in our being, more is lost in a shorter period of time. I could probably go a year without driving and be able to hop in a car and knock the rust off within a couple hours, but I've been driving for 35 years. I still need to do a lot of frequent flying, because it's so new and so forgettable.

Part of the downward spiral of not training and not flying is not having goals. Always have new flying goals. That will keep it fresh and alive and make it fun to keep improving your skills.

 

[Toby]

Henning,

I agree completely, and I don't have near the experience that you do. But I've spent enough time in my airplane (and others) teaching CFI/MEI types that I decided they were more a liability than an asset.

That being said, I've still got tons to learn...but my choices for where to get that information are becoming few and far between.

I go to SimCom twice per year -- and while that makes me feel good about IR proficiency and OEI situations -- it does nothing for using all the tools available on the ground and in the air to make the right combination of decisions that will:

1) complete the mission as close to on-time as possible
2) not end up in harms way during the mission

I am now learning some pretty cool stuff, but unfortunately I have to learn it on my own...

1) How to scan clouds using radar
2) when is it safe to go around weather, and when is it a trap?
3) if you have to go around, which way do you go?...for each type of weather
4) which altitudes are better/worse if you have no choice but to go through weather
5) how do you judge distances at different altitudes and weather and time-of-day
6) the real meaning of all the different types of big-picture weather-makers to pilots, how to plan for them, what are the traps, what are the outs, how do you know if it is safe to continue?
7) the ability to make minute-by-minute decisions about changing conditions
8) smart fuel management
9) when is 'tired' too-tired...how to tell when to press-on or land and sleep
10) how to stay awake when flying tired
11) how to force yourself past complacency regarding: checklists, scanning for traffic, fuel, engines, course, heading, and altitude (the last two especially when on autopilot)
12) keeping dicipline to constantly tune VOR's and have the enroute on my lap, and know where I am on it at any given moment
13) When to negotiate with ATC and when to tell them how it is
14) When is it safer for all involved for me to blast into an airport hot on a short approach...or to circle overhead and enter a normal pattern
15) night IMC...still fighting illusions...no trouble trusting instruments...but the need to trust them against bodily sensations just doesn't seem to go away
16) a million lessons about ice
17) I could go on for days...

Anyone less than the 1,500 hour guy you described wouldn't have a clue.

Sigh...

Bob, I wish you were going to be around here sometime. It would be great to hear what you have to say on all those 17 points.

 

[AdamZ]

I have two or three friends who are CFIs. I fly with them every couple of months and even though we do it as friends I always use it as an instructional opportunity. My recent flight with Arnold is a great example.

 

[grattonja]

Bob, I think the 17 points that you outlined are some of the core fundamentals that all new IR pilots need to work on and advance into. The weather is one of the things that I know not nearly enough about, need to learn about, and need to learn about from experience. The CFIIs that I have had have come from schools, with not much actual IFR experience. At least, on the East Coast, they rapidly remedy that. I have heard tales of Southwestern CFIIs who NEVER see IR. How can you really teach something that you have never done.

The foggles are one things, the ups and downs of cloud entry and exit, the existence/non existence of ice and thunderboomers, that is something else altogether. I have and have read Weather Flying, Mountain Flying, and some other excellent texts. But they are academic. They help a lot, but they don't answer everything. You have to get up and do sometimes, and it sure adds to the comfort factor to have experienced CFIs available to help you learn.

Bruce, as to the issue of folks not getting training, namely the most recent involved individuals in the FRZ incursion, we all bear some responsibility to try to encourage these people to learn. We need to correct obvious errors when we hear them, we need to help when we can. I can tell, from the posts on here, that all of you feel essentially the same way and do this when you can. The spirit of helpfullness here is often reassuring.

I have been wanting to do Young Eagles flights for a while. I joined EAA last winter. I have been wanting to join EAA 540, the local section. I am going to the next meeting on June 7. For those of you who are not EAA members, that is the Smoketown section of EAA. Yes, those people. Hey, if we don't get involved and try to affect some improvement, maybe we will eventually have a 30 mile FRZ. Wish me luck, but I will do what I can to help improve knowledge and training locally. We should all do the same, when we can.

Jim G

 

[RobertGerace]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I feel like I have much more distance to cover going forward in my knowledge and experience than I do looking back.

For those looking for master's degree level learning, I found mine by contracting with professional pilot service companies (they are out there) who will fly your airplane for you (thereby avoiding the 135 rap). It works if you are just a 'share-holder' in an Ourplane or AirShares Elite, and it works if you own your own airplane. It does not work if the pilot company is also a flight school / fbo and they supply the airplane and the pilot.

I opted for pilots with 2,000+ hours and prefer 3,000. I am finding out that even 1,000 hours is a long, long, long, long time in an airplane. I'm also finding out that it how one spends those hours. I could dose and listen to the XM Comedy channel on every 3 hour flight I take...but I choose to try to learn every nuance.

I learned that all pilots have their strengths and weaknesses. The more hard-imc experience, the better the pilot in my opinion. You've got to be like the IceMan in dark clouds and at night around mountains with 100% confidence and 100% correct task execution. That only comes from forgetting to hit the VLOC button on the Garmin 100 times in much-higher minimums, and a hundred other stupid mistakes.

On the flip side, they all did something stupid. Busted altitudes seemed to be the most prevelant mistake. It sure is easy to do, and it's about the quickest thing to get your ticket in trouble. That helpled me to learn to never bust altitudes...knock on wood...I have yet to do it (really bad anyway...sigh...)

I flew with these guys on over 100 trips. I sure did learn IFR procedures -- but also learned to say, "I gotem on TCAS" which this forum helped to correct

I made friends with every freight dog I met in every FBO -- and especially here in Atlanta. I kept in touch with some really, really great pilots who can literally paint the needles on the guages on anything less than severe turbulence. I bought many lunches and dinners, and picked many brains.

The bottom line that I learned from those brains is that you always go, you might just have to wait until the thunderstoms or freezing rain moves away from the airport. But you eventually always go. And you always have outs. And you always land. Just maybe not where you intended.

One of the guys I kept in touch with is now left seat in a Cheyenne. I asked him if I can fly right seat with him and he said YES! The only drawback is that I have to be Commercial to do it. So, now I'm trying to figure out how, when, and where to get a CMEL-IA...I don't want to abuse my bird; I'm not really comfortable flying a trainer after I've learned what it takes to maintain a twin...but I'll figure something out.

The good news is I'll be able to fly as a professional, get paid $175 per flight, and completely and totally go on my schedule...because he flies that airplane for 4 owners...only 2 of which require a co-pilot...and he has a long list of people who get to go right seat. Since I was a very good customer, I get first pick!!

Now when that starts...I'll be getting some GOOD experience!!!

 

[jdwatson]

I haven't been flying long enough to need a BFR. That being said, I've been chasing ratings, endorsements & checkouts in different planes. There's hardly a 60-day window where I'm not up with an instructor. 52% of my total time has been Dual. My lovely bride often wonders aloud, when all the "lessons" will stop. I tell her, in a word ? Never. :-D

P.S.
I insist on getting IFR checked out in each new plane, that seems to be taking care of the IFR currency issue.