How Not To Land An Airplane

HPNPilot1200

HPNPilot1200

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Jason
Why oh why do students keep landing with their feet on the brakes?

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You're not teaching them right?
Size 13 feet on size 9 pedals?
Heels not resting on the floor?
They are not forced to buy new tires when they skin the current ones?
Let the beatings commence.
 
You think landing with brakes is bad, but three months ago a guy took off with feet on the brakes in Yak-42 (a trijet about the size of 727). Due to the braking action, airplane was unable to rotate at Vr, even while the crew dialed full nose-up trim. When they overran the runway, the braking action decreased sharply, the airplane suddenly rotated, stalled out and crashed. 36 dead, 1 survivor. Landing with brakes seems nowhere near as bad.
 
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lol, I've done that a few times. Not cording the tire, but enough to make some noise, and some squirrly landings
 
Can you be sure that's what happened, Jason? (Have seen it for other reasons too.)
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Can you be sure that's what happened, Jason? (Have seen it for other reasons too.)
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Chief cause of flat-spotted tires: landing too fast. If the pilot doesn't approach at a sane speed and doesn't get rid of much of the speed before he gets into ground effect, he'll probably touch down at a high speed (meaning that the angle of attack is low and so he attitude is flat, too, often touching down on the nose and mains at the same time) and then he'll try to fix the problem with brakes. But at that speed the wing is still taking much of the airplane's weight and so there's no traction. The wheels lock up with little brake pressure. Just because the tires are on the ground doesn't mean that the airplane isn't still flying.

And fast approaches often mean lots of float in ground effect so that touchdown happens far down the runway. More brakes, again.

Touchdown should be not too far above the stall. If there's a stall warning it should have been blaring before the touchdown.

Dan
 
silver-eagle said:
You're not teaching them right?
Size 13 feet on size 9 pedals?
Heels not resting on the floor?
They are not forced to buy new tires when they skin the current ones?
Let the beatings commence.
Click to expand...

I was helping a student and instructor hangar their aircraft when I noticed the bald spot which was difficult to see given the size of the wheel pants on the Cirrus.

Let'sgoflying! said:
Can you be sure that's what happened, Jason? (Have seen it for other reasons too.)
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Can't be 100% sure but in speaking with maintenance and other instructors, it seems to be a leading cause for this issue for some of our students in the Cirrus. I think people get used to resting their feet on the entire pedal since you use differential braking to steer at slow speeds (free castering nosewheel) which is evidently applying brake pressure on landing.
 
When that happened to me on the Aztec, it had to do with the fact that the tire had about 800 hours on it.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
I was helping a student and instructor hangar their aircraft when I noticed the bald spot which was difficult to see given the size of the wheel pants on the Cirrus.



Can't be 100% sure but in speaking with maintenance and other instructors, it seems to be a leading cause for this issue for some of our students in the Cirrus. I think people get used to resting their feet on the entire pedal since you use differential braking to steer at slow speeds (free castering nosewheel) which is evidently applying brake pressure on landing.
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Strangely the Q used to love doing that. And it has really aggressive anti-skid and the brakes are disabled for the first few seconds after touchdown. Sometimes tires just do that. Or maybe your students are having TOO good of landings? They used to get mad at us on the Q for greasing the landings; they wanted us to plant it so the tires would spin up to speed without scrubbing any. They figured it might save them a few sets of tires.

That said, your bad-habits-due-to-castering-nose-wheel-steering theory (combined with the high landing speed, light on the wheels) seems pretty plausible.
 
If you are really needing to stop and don't want to use the brakes you might want to consider going on through beta and into reverse. Beta will stop most of the thrust allowing a coast down but does little to actually brake the plane.
 
denverpilot said:
Brakes? Are we supposed to use those? ;)
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I RARELY use brakes in the Chief. They are the old Cleveland style and have a tendency to grab at just the wrong moment.

Most TW pilots only use the brakes during test before taxi, during run up, and stopping for the tie down.

I used them once on landing -- that was on my emergency turn back after engine threw a plug (2600 RPM to 1200 or so in a moment). I was high on final and had to slip all the way down and wheel it on. Gentle, tap-tap-tap on the brakes helped slow before the large berm at the end of the runway.
 
ronnieh said:
If you are really needing to stop and don't want to use the brakes you might want to consider going on through beta and into reverse. Beta will stop most of the thrust allowing a coast down but does little to actually brake the plane.
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That is what I meant, but these turbine things are still new to me so the terms are a little fuzzy. Sorry for the error.

Still, getting rid of the forward thrust by itself does make a difference.
 
Yes it does, many of us learn to taxi in beta to slow taxi speed without riding the brakes. On a fairly long runway I may slip into reverse just a little then coast in beta if I am going the whole length anyway. Helps keep some of the fod out of the engine, I hope.
 
That's how I've been taught to taxi the Commander as well.

Up in Canada on the gravel strips, they still use reverse. More than anything it's out of necessity to get the planes stopped in time. The propellers look like hell, but they gave me a few tips on the gravel techniques they use which help prevent the big dings that kill props from cropping up.
 
Lot of thread drift here. The Commander has the Garrett? One of the little quircks I have to live with is feather the prop on the ground. If the right engine is put in feather while sitting still the right boot on the first 18 inches will get smoking hot in seconds. I try to be aware of that even while taxiing slowly in beta due to decreased airflow across the wing. At least you don't have that problem. I can't imagine going into a gravel strip with my plane. I have no prop clearance compared to what you have.
 
Yes, Garretts. TPE-331-5s for me. That's an interesting quirk. I'm never in beta or reverse for more than a few seconds at a time.

One of the more interesting quirks I find is the need to shut down the engine in full reverse (engage by 50% on shutdown and take off below 10%). This allows the pins to drop in place to lock the prop in 0 pitch to make startup easier. Once the engines are started, put them in full reverse to allow the pins to pull back out, and then you can taxi as normal.

I doubt I'll ever take the Commander into a gravel strip. The Navajo, Aztec, and 310 end up being better fits for my trips up there. Plus the Commander costs too much for my wallet.

What do you fly?
 
GUMPH

H is HEALS ON FLOOR

A super experianced CFI used to bang this into the new guys heads.

Land the plane then brake. It keeps the new guys from balding tires. Once they skid, they clamp full hard on the brakes. In the columbias and light twins they will usually go through the tube due to weight and speed.
 
Yes know what you mean. I have a very good friend that flys the MU2 with -10s. I have decided I am not smart enough to start a Garrett:). If the engines shut down in feather you have a problem so they must be on the pins to shut down. Also if one of the props does not drop off of the pins makes power up a little interesting for a second or two untill you get the power back out. Different engines, different method.
 
While I never flat spotted a tire, I do remember having trouble remembering to keep my toes off the brakes at first. It made for some interesting times controlling the aircraft at times...jerking the aircraft in either direction. I learned that part of my problem was having the seat too far forward.
 
Believe me, there are very, very few flight schools that do not have a runway long enough to land on and simply roll to a stop.

That being said, the CFI should insist that the student use only the bottom of the rudder pedal for takeoff and for landing. It's the same as having the student keep their hand on the throttle during the takeoff, approach and landing. Keep the heels on the floor and the toes on only the rudder pedals!

At our school, we included a check of the tires during the preflight inspection. If a flat spot like that was noted, the previous pilot was charged for the tire. Everybody knew it was that way and everybody understood the reason. It was amazing how few flat spots we had!

...and above all,
FLY SAFE!

WileyP
 
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CMTowner said:
While I never flat spotted a tire, I do remember having trouble remembering to keep my toes off the brakes at first. It made for some interesting times controlling the aircraft at times...jerking the aircraft in either direction. I learned that part of my problem was having the seat too far forward.
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I had the same exact problem, too far forward.
 
WileyP said:
Believe me, there are very, very few flight schools that do not have a runway long enough to land on and simply roll to a stop.
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What do you consider adequate for a primary student to land on and roll to a stop? For the purposes of discussion, let's presume using a 172.
 
n20junkie said:
GUMPH

H is HEALS ON FLOOR

A super experianced CFI used to bang this into the new guys heads.

Land the plane then brake. It keeps the new guys from balding tires. Once they skid, they clamp full hard on the brakes. In the columbias and light twins they will usually go through the tube due to weight and speed.
Click to expand...

I never heard this before but heals on the floor is the right thing to teach. It makes reaching up for the toe brake a dilberate action rather than an oops.

<---<^>--->
 
I prefer to heal on a bed instead of the floor. ;)

But yes, definitely, HEELS on the floor when landing an airplane. :)
 
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