How much time to remain proficient?

[Matthew]

After my PP checkride a few weeks ago, the DPE and I were talking about the next step.

He was really encouraging me to get the instrument rating. I told him it was a longer term goal. I want to use the PPL first, gain some experience, then, eventually, migrate to the instrument rating.

The discussion did get me thinking: Not counting the time to get the rating - how much time, realistically, is necessary to retain proficiency? and to remain proficient? (two different things).

Is a weekend warrior going to be able to maintain on just a couple of hours a month or does this require more of a time commitment?

Thanks,
Matt

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Probably depends on you. I only fly airplanes 2 or 3 times a month, and while I think I'm safe, I'm not as good as I was when I was flying a lot more, although I'm better than when I took my checkride. I fly our helicopter 6-8 times a month and I would say I'm much better better than I was when I took my checkride. YMMV...

 

[Matthew]

After re-reading my own post, I probably need to clarify.

I was specifically asking about remaining proficient regarding the instrument rating.

Matt

edit - what I was really, REALLY, trying to ask is - how much time/effort does it really take to remain current, and proficient, regarding an instrument rating?

 

[RotaryWingBob]

After re-reading my own post, I probably need to clarify.

I was specifically asking about remaining proficient regarding the instrument rating.

Matt

Ahhh. I'll leave that to those who have their IR. I do know a number of IR pilots who do an IPC if they haven't flown much hard IFR regardless of whether they legally need one.

 

[Bill]

I was specifically asking about remaining proficient regarding the instrument rating.

I'm a newly minted IR, so what I'm doing so far may not be the norm. I passed my ride 12/9, and I've done about 8-9 approaches since then, and have at least 2-3hrs hood time.

Personally, I plan to:

1. Fly an approach every time I land when I have a valid safety pilot along with me.
2. Go out and specifically hand fly 3-4 approaches (being under the hood from takeoff to DH) every two weeks at the maximum.

At my stage of the game, until the habits are further ingrained, I would think that shooting 3 approaches once a week would be ideal, every other week sufficient, but anything past that would have me nervious of my abilities.

The stuff goes quick...

 

[gismo]

After re-reading my own post, I probably need to clarify.

I was specifically asking about remaining proficient regarding the instrument rating.

Matt

edit - what I was really, REALLY, trying to ask is - how much time/effort does it really take to remain current, and proficient, regarding an instrument rating?

It depends on how long you've been flying instruments and how often you actually have to fly an approach. When I first started with the IR, I felt uncomfortable unless I'd flown an actual approach within the previous 30 days or so. These days that period of my perceived "currency" is more like 90 days. And initially flying "in the system" was a bit unfamiliar feeling but I was doing that often enough (virtually every trip beyond my local area) so pretty soon I got to the point where I didn't find any need to worry about currency on that point.

One thing I've often done is to practice flying approaches on my PC. The main downside with that is that I can't use my GPS so if I want to practice them I need to use the actual airplane. I'm flying around 150 hrs/yr in the Baron with about 80% of that under IFR. Some years I get enough approaches to feel current and sometimes I go for almost 6 months before flying any that are more than minimally IMC. Generally I try to fly at least 3-4 approaches every three months, either under the hood or for real and that makes me feel competent enough these days.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Is a weekend warrior going to be able to maintain on just a couple of hours a month or does this require more of a time commitment?

Matt,

I don't have my IR yet, but I've had periods of intense training and periods where I've gone for months with no flying at all.

Initially, any time off led to a lot of regression. In fact, after about a 10-month period, I felt like I was pretty much starting over despite the fact that I'd been doing very well, close to checkride, beforehand.

Once I started over, I flew for 4-5 months with only occasional flights. Then, I started flying multiple times almost every weekend. Slowed down just a bit, got a little rusty, and started flying like mad again.

Eventually there came a time where I knew I would be unable to fly at all for at least three weeks. This was right after my Gaston's/Houston trip, so I returned from Houston on Thursday with the idea that I'd finish up and take the checkride on Sunday.

Well, it was not to be. I was super-bummed, thinking that I'd have to basically start over again. My flight instructor said he thought I wouldn't have any trouble. I didn't really believe him.

Well, he was right. It ended up being quite a few weeks before I could fly instruments again, but I did a passable job right away. I was actually pretty surprised at how well I did.

What made the difference? I don't know. At some point, I guess I'd just been flying instruments often enough that it just "stuck." When I have a long break, I still don't feel as comfortable right off the bat, but I don't feel completely lost by any means.

I guess you just have to do it enough right off the bat to get to that point, and then it won't be so bad later. Just make sure you know what your limits are and don't exceed them.

 

[poadeleted20]

A few years ago, I wrote an article on this for Aviation Safety Magazine. Essentially, I believe that you can maintain proficiency on about 50 hours a year, as long as you use them carefully. If it's all straight-line $100 hamburger runs, especially to the same place, it's not enough. But if you set yourself a, well, syllabus, if you will, of things you can do routinely with your flights, you can do this. For example, each month:

1. Go out to the practice area for 30 minutes of airwork (slow flight/stalls, steep turns, etc) followed by four or five spot landings, including a soft field and an obstacle approach. Every three months, do this at night, with the last landing made landing-light-out.
2. Fly an XC to somewhere you've never been or at least haven't been to lately -- and throw the GPS in the back seat and use pilotage/DR on a sectional for at least one leg. Every three months, do this at night.
3. Put on the hood (and take a safety pilot) and do some basic instrument stuff in the practice area (4 fundamentals, slow flight, etc) and then do a couple approaches, preferably not ones at your home 'drome (y'know, the ones where you don't need to look at the approach charts to rattle off all the courses and altitudes). Every three months, do this partial panel.
4. Every six months, get with an instructor for a flight that includes a representative mix of the above tasks, along with some simulated emergencies.

That's three flights a month, for about four hours a month, and that's about 50 hours a year. It will keep you 61.57-current for day/night and instrument flying, and reasonably proficient in all the skills you need as a PPL-ASEL-IR in a light, simple, single-engine GA airplane.

 

[spiderweb]

I like Ron's schedule. For me, I work with my CFII once a month, and make sure I fly two more times each month without him. If I miss a flight, I meet with the CFII again. I also use Flight Simulator. I know it isn't realistic, but things happen in real time, and it does remind me of procedures. If you do this, make sure you do everything--checklists, kneeboard, timer, callouts, etc.

 

[gismo]

A few years ago, I wrote an article on this for Aviation Safety Magazine. Essentially, I believe that you can maintain proficiency on about 50 hours a year, as long as you use them carefully. If it's all straight-line $100 hamburger runs, especially to the same place, it's not enough. But if you set yourself a, well, syllabus, if you will, of things you can do routinely with your flights, you can do this. For example, each month:

1. Go out to the practice area for 30 minutes of airwork (slow flight/stalls, steep turns, etc) followed by four or five spot landings, including a soft field and an obstacle approach. Every three months, do this at night, with the last landing made landing-light-out.
2. Fly an XC to somewhere you've never been or at least haven't been to lately -- and throw the GPS in the back seat and use pilotage/DR on a sectional for at least one leg. Every three months, do this at night.
3. Put on the hood (and take a safety pilot) and do some basic instrument stuff in the practice area (4 fundamentals, slow flight, etc) and then do a couple approaches, preferably not ones at your home 'drome (y'know, the ones where you don't need to look at the approach charts to rattle off all the courses and altitudes). Every three months, do this partial panel.
4. Every six months, get with an instructor for a flight that includes a representative mix of the above tasks, along with some simulated emergencies.

That's three flights a month, for about four hours a month, and that's about 50 hours a year. It will keep you 61.57-current for day/night and instrument flying, and reasonably proficient in all the skills you need as a PPL-ASEL-IR in a light, simple, single-engine GA airplane.

I think Matthew was asking how much time does one need to spend )on instruments and flying approaches) to maintain IFR proficiency. And while I agree that basic VFR skills practice will further that goal, it sounds like your answer to the question I think he asked would be about 1/3 of those 50 hours or 15-18 hours per year and that sounds about right.

 

[Richard]

I think Matthew has asked a very good question and while the responses have been quite worthwhile (it depends on the pilot and total flying experience) I really like Ron's response. It offers a practical solution to a practical problem; Ron takes it out of the hypothetical and keeps it real.

While the question is about IFR proficiency couldn't it easily be about any type of flying? EX: multi engine.

 

[poadeleted20]

While the question is about IFR proficiency couldn't it easily be about any type of flying? EX: multi engine.

Certainly, but when you add a second engine, there are extra requirements, probably at least a couple hours a quarter with a multiengine instructor for OEI maneuvering, landing, and instrument approaches.

 

[DoubleD]

A few years back the rules for IFR currency were changed. Before that, the requirement was for 6 hours of actual or simulated instrument flight, and six instrument approaches, within the past six months. As a new instrument-rated pilot, I found that to be a reasonable bare minimum for currency.

Part of my success with this approach was how the time was accrued: I'd go out with a safety pilot, or occasionally into the clag, about once a month for an hour or so. That way I was never terribly rusty. I always flew the approaches IFR, i.e., "in the system".

The current requirement is probably fine for high-timers, but I believe dropping the 6 hours/6 months requirement was a disservice to those relatively new to instrument flying.

 

[bharris]

After my PP checkride a few weeks ago, the DPE and I were talking about the next step.

He was really encouraging me to get the instrument rating. I told him it was a longer term goal. I want to use the PPL first, gain some experience, then, eventually, migrate to the instrument rating.

The discussion did get me thinking: Not counting the time to get the rating - how much time, realistically, is necessary to retain proficiency? and to remain proficient? (two different things).

Is a weekend warrior going to be able to maintain on just a couple of hours a month or does this require more of a time commitment?

Thanks,
Matt

I try to fly a minimum of 1+ hours once a week, including at least three landings. I have my own plane, so I can even do it at night if it's more convenient.

{edit after reading Ron's post.} However, I like Ron's methodology of a more structured approach to maintaninig currency. I think the plan he described is worth a try.

 

[Matthew]

Thank you all for the responses.

I can budget the time and money (since time==money) to where I can keep my own comfort level of VFR proficiency and still feel like I can go places and do things without only working on PTS items.

If/when I begin seriously considering the IR, I'll need to factor in the type of flying I normally do, plus the additional practice required to maintain a safe level of IR proficiency. There will be a practical, financial, limit to how much I can do. I'm trying to get an early feel for what would be necessary vs. what I have available.

I know that a lot of it depends on the individual, but, again, I'm just trying to get a feel.

if X = the absolute minimum to remain safely VFR proficient, and Y = the absolute minumum to remain safely IR proficient, I'm trying to figure out what Y is so I can figure out if:

$ available (at some time in the future) > (X + Y)

I think Ron touched on most of what I was looking for, I'll have to spend some more time reviewing his suggestions.

I'd like to avoid the situation where all I do is 'maintain proficiency' and not have any opportunity to go places and do things. Granted, you can do both at the same time, but still...

Matt

 

[poadeleted20]

I'd like to avoid the situation where all I do is 'maintain proficiency' and not have any opportunity to go places and do things. Granted, you can do both at the same time, but still...

You'll note that I built at least one "go somewhere" flight each month into my program for maintaining proficiency. But keep in mind that while long XC's like my recent trip to the Bahamas are fun, build hours, and drain wallets, the proficiency development/hour rate goes way down on such flights, and if you want to do many of these, you are going to have to go beyond that 50/hours per year in order to maintain proficiency.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

.

I'd like to avoid the situation where all I do is 'maintain proficiency' and not have any opportunity to go places and do things. Granted, you can do both at the same time, but still...

Matt

Even on a trip type flight it's often quite easy to chose an airport or two along the general route, file for and fly an IFR approach or two for ongoing practice.

 

[Bill]

Even on a trip type flight it's often quite easy to chose an airport or two along the general route, file for and fly an IFR approach or two for ongoing practice.

And, nothing that says you can't throttle back and do MCA, or stalls, or other airwork enroute.

 

[Richard]

You'll note that I built at least one "go somewhere" flight each month into my program for maintaining proficiency. But keep in mind that while long XC's like my recent trip to the Bahamas are fun, build hours, and drain wallets, the proficiency development/hour rate goes way down on such flights, and if you want to do many of these, you are going to have to go beyond that 50/hours per year in order to maintain proficiency.

That is exactly why during my training for the complex I argued for a bunch of short trips with as many TO/LND as possible. Proficiency in app/dep is more important than cruise time.

 

[Matthew]

Cap'n Ron,

Upon further review - I like your plan. I had something similar for myself for solo practice while training (although much scaled down). I think I'll take your suggestions and work them into my own routine.

What's the saying? "Do you have 100 hrs of experience or 1 hour of experience 100 times?"

I want to build as much experience as possible, not just 1 hour of experience many times. I think your ideas will help.

Thanks,
Matt

 

[flyingcheesehead]

And, nothing that says you can't throttle back and do MCA, or stalls, or other airwork enroute.

But, don't forget this:

5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(e) Change in the average true airspeed (at cruising altitude) when it varies by 5 percent or 10 knots (whichever is greater) from that filed in the flight plan.

 

[poadeleted20]

The AIM line about telling ATC when your TAS changes 5%/10 knots applies only to IFR traffic. If you're VFR tooling along in clear air, you can do what you like in the way of speed, or circling, or whatever, withing telling ATC each time you move a flight control.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The AIM line about telling ATC when your TAS changes 5%/10 knots applies only to IFR traffic. If you're VFR tooling along in clear air, you can do what you like in the way of speed, or circling, or whatever, withing telling ATC each time you move a flight control.

True... I should have tried to quote the message Bill was replying to:

file for and fly an IFR

(emphasis mine)

That is why most IFR training flights are VFR, of course; though IFR can be done too. Last Sunday I did a training flight in actual; approach gave us a huge block of airspace to work with: MSN VOR 280CW330, 10-25 DME, 3200-6000 feet. You know it's a slow day in the TRACON when...

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

True... I should have tried to quote the message Bill was replying to:



(emphasis mine)

That is why most IFR training flights are VFR, of course; though IFR can be done too. Last Sunday I did a training flight in actual; approach gave us a huge block of airspace to work with: MSN VOR 280CW330, 10-25 DME, 3200-6000 feet. You know it's a slow day in the TRACON when...

Yep, the key to combining a trip type flight while maximizing proficiency benefits is looking along the route and its nearby airports and airspace to see what could possibly be done for training whether IFR or VFR while being both flexible and safe. Utilization of "pop-up" approaches when available can help meet those ends.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Interesting question and responses. I'm flying between 200 and 250 hours per year; doing a lot of long distance trips and do at least an annual flight review, IPC, Wings completion and annual sim training.

As to actual instrument flight, even when I haven't flown any actual approached in IMC awhile, I don't get uncomfortable just because of that. I'm usually in the system a lot (even if VMC) and am getting a lot of time in the plane. I also do hood work and practice approaches even when VMC. There are a bunch of things that affect how I feel about proficiency: The pressurized twin is much more work; more to fly and keep up with. Actual weather conditions play a role. How busy the airspace is. Is all equipment working properly, etc. The A-36 is simplier to operate and stay ahead of.

For instance, if I haven't been flying a lot of actual instrument time, weather is pretty crumy and AP isn't working, there are a lot of flights I'd pass on because I'm not right on top of my game and all systems aren't there to support the flight. Everything working, just finished Sim training and low ceilings, but not convective, I'm pretty comfortable using the full capabilities of the plane and instruments.

So, I answered in a round about way, how much time to stay proficient depends on time in the aircraft and how it's working; severity of weather; familiarity with the area, how congested the airspace is, etc. If all of the above are a challenge, I don't think 50 hours a year might do it. You might have basic proficiency, but you're not on a par with someone getting more time. OTOH, reasonable conditions, and not going to minimums, that's probably enough for me to feel reasonably comfortable. Since I don't have deadlines for most of my trips, I have a lot of flexibility and take full advantage of it. If things are really crappy, I don't need to be flying in it; so, why would I?

Best,

Dave

 

[Joe B]

In addition to Ron's suggestion I highly recommend that you fly approaches into fields you're visiting whenever you can, even if you only fly the approach VFR and without a safety pilot. You have to spend a lot of time with eyes outside the cockpit, which means your inside-cockpit scan (and resulting actions) need to be good in order to stay within standards on the approach. You can't log it for currency but it sure does help with proficiency.

Regards,
Joe

 

[Henning]

After my PP checkride a few weeks ago, the DPE and I were talking about the next step.

He was really encouraging me to get the instrument rating. I told him it was a longer term goal. I want to use the PPL first, gain some experience, then, eventually, migrate to the instrument rating.

The discussion did get me thinking: Not counting the time to get the rating - how much time, realistically, is necessary to retain proficiency? and to remain proficient? (two different things).

Is a weekend warrior going to be able to maintain on just a couple of hours a month or does this require more of a time commitment?

Thanks,
Matt

Yeah, I get your point and the difference. Retaining Proficiency.... That really depends on your total time. At 1 point I hadn't flown in nearly 2 years when I did a BFR and flew VFR Pipeline in a PA-12, no problem. I also had over 1800hrs total time. I'd often be running a boat on 28 day on 14 day off hitches, come home and fly ag for a guy as his relief. It was all pretty good, but was simple stick rudder stuff, strictly sensory flying. All thinking room is taken up with the work part of the deal, the pesticide/fertilizer application. Once you have a few hundred hours flying, the flying will be there, it's like riding a bike. Get on after a few years off, and you wobble for a few feet then start crankin it down the road.

Now IFR is a completely different animal, it is defined and proceedural. This is where "remaining proficient" comes in, and I think it's minimum a couple hours a month if all you're doing is punching down through a marine layer on approach or up on departure. Take that up to a couple hours a week minimum if you're flying hard IFR Single Pilot no Autopilot. Now again, the physical flying of the gauges becomes a learned response. I really surprized myself in the sim the other day. I hadn't flown IFR in probably 6 years, and I shot a 1 dot ILS with a gusty head wind. The thing about IFR though is the workload and your ability to remember proceedures and to maintain situational and position awareness through (well before moving map anyway) abstract analog information correllated to a piece of paper in your lap which represents a world you cannot see COMBINED with the hand flying.... You see the difference I'm sure. I'd say if you're not flying solid IFR (differentiated from Hard IFR, not bad, just solid in the soup T/O to Minimums+20% approach) 2 times a week solo, you should probably do it under the hood a couple hrs a week to make sure you can when you have to. Then there's keeping up with rules and technical and equipment changes...

 

[Henning]

I'm a newly minted IR, so what I'm doing so far may not be the norm. I passed my ride 12/9, and I've done about 8-9 approaches since then, and have at least 2-3hrs hood time.

Personally, I plan to:

1. Fly an approach every time I land when I have a valid safety pilot along with me.
2. Go out and specifically hand fly 3-4 approaches (being under the hood from takeoff to DH) every two weeks at the maximum.

At my stage of the game, until the habits are further ingrained, I would think that shooting 3 approaches once a week would be ideal, every other week sufficient, but anything past that would have me nervious of my abilities.

The stuff goes quick...

You can FLY an approach regardless of whether you have a safety pilot. More than Half of flying an approach is proceedural. There is nothing prohibiting you from flying proceedure under instrument flight rule while maintaining visual separation. You will benefit from it.

 

[Bill]

There is nothing prohibiting you from flying proceedure under instrument flight rule while maintaining visual separation. You will benefit from it.

OK, I'll try those as well. Got in an NDB, VOR/DME arc, and ILS simulated last night.

 

[jnmeade]

That is exactly why during my training for the complex I argued for a bunch of short trips with as many TO/LND as possible. Proficiency in app/dep is more important than cruise time.

If you are lucky enough to have airports close together, you can do this and still get over 50nm as required in case you want to build x-country time. While cruise time itself may not be very useful, getting to and coming out of cruise is essential to proficiency. Staying close to home doesn't always train one on the arrival as well as it does the approach. Getting one's mind and the airplane configured properly is started in the arrival, so I'm making the argument for hops to airports 20-30 miles away as being good training. Just string them together for the 50nm distance you'd like to log.

 

[Richard]

If you are lucky enough to have airports close together, you can do this and still get over 50nm as required in case you want to build x-country time. While cruise time itself may not be very useful, getting to and coming out of cruise is essential to proficiency. Staying close to home doesn't always train one on the arrival as well as it does the approach. Getting one's mind and the airplane configured properly is started in the arrival, so I'm making the argument for hops to airports 20-30 miles away as being good training. Just string them together for the 50nm distance you'd like to log.

Good point! My first x/c in the 210 upon arrival I was so far behind because I didn't keep up with the MP reduction like I should have. We entered the patt at 160 kts so I extended the downwind leg...into the next county. We weren't slowing down! Departed the patt and made some turns to lose some speed. Lesson: How not to enter the pattern.

 

[Henning]

Certainly, but when you add a second engine, there are extra requirements, probably at least a couple hours a quarter with a multiengine instructor for OEI maneuvering, landing, and instrument approaches.

Well, I can see that if you rent multis on occassion, but not for an owner/operator business flyer. They should be operating in a mode of continuous proficiency training. I used to fly every second or third approach when I didn't have pax with one or the other zero thrusted all the way to landing, and I would practice partial panel by simply ignoring the instruments I failed. Occasionally I would pop the breaker and wind the gear down by hand just to exercise the equipment. I think flying like this is your best scenario for proficiency/utility. Multis are kind of expensive for just maintaining proficiency, and if you don't need a multi more than say seven hours a month, it may be cheaper to hire a proficient pilot, than to maintain your own proficiency.