How much plane can I afford?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Brendon, Jul 20, 2019.

  1. Brendon

    Brendon Pre-Flight

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    I want to buy a plane in a couple years (around January 2022). My planned financial situation will be as follows

    Wife income 70k a year

    My income. Working on my career path to airline pilot. At this point I will be a flight instructor building hours and making about 30k a year. But after a couple years that will go up once I get a job you know how it goes.

    Bills
    Housing $1,500 or less
    College Loan Payments $600
    Other debts $400
    Available down-payment is flexible as this is a couple years from now. I could probably do at least 5k to as much as 15-20k if I really needed to.

    Credit Score for me 700-750
    Credit Score for my wife ~750
    Don't mind doing a loan for 15-20 years

    I will be using the plane starting out to do sightseeing tours on the side to make extra money and build hours.
    I also want to use the plane to take trips accross the us and would like to take a trip to South America (2400 miles)
    The plane will be used pretty often to make trips from Florida (where I will be living) to Connecticut

    Plane needs to have 4 seats at least.

    Was thinking Piper Cherokee 180 but I don't know if it will be enough for what I want to do, I want something with autopilot and something I can trust for those long trips. I like the diamond da-40 but it's super expensive

    The reason all this is speculative is because I am currently in the air force (not a pilot) and will be getting out in May of 2021.

    I would consider a multi owner aircraft but I might need to use it too much for that to be realistic.

    Thanks!
     
  2. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    The market is quite unpredictable. The Skyhawk I sold five years ago would now go for double—or more—what I got for it.
    Owning a plane to do sightseeing tours sounds like a very high insurance bill for a low-time pilot, and it seems as if you haven't even started training. Get a medical, and start training if you haven't. Build your time flight instructing; that way someone else is paying for the plane and your time.
    A four-seat plane is generally a two-seat plane when fueled for long trips. The Cherokee is not fast, making long trips, um, longer.
    Have fun, but learn to fly first. Once you solo, check your plan once more, and adjust as needed.
     
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  3. Blatham489

    Blatham489 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Ask this of a lender. When you get your answer, then you can analyze the planes you can afford as to whether they fit your typical mission 80% of the time.
     
  4. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    After owning for the last 5 years......

    Don’t.
     
  5. Brendon

    Brendon Pre-Flight

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    I should mention, I already have my ppl. I will be going to atp flight school after I get out of the military which should take 6 months to get the rest (up to commercial)
     
  6. sourdough44

    sourdough44 Pattern Altitude

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    Why 4 seats? Don’t buy seats, or performance, for others.

    Remember, it’s not close to ‘free’ to fly your own plane. If training, building hours & such, I wouldn’t feel the need to buy right away. Get your CFI rating, good way to build hours.

    Military base flying clubs are one of the best deals around, if that’s an option where you’re at.
     
  7. old_biker

    old_biker Pre-takeoff checklist

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    just a thought, check with your tourism board to see if you actually start a business to promote your area if you cant qualify for a GRANT "free money" next check with local college & economic development board & see if any grants available for you to open your small business, I know of a program here where many have used to help get their business off the ground, & up to $30K free, just have to take the class to understand & show a business plan, & see how much you will qualify for. 1 mechanic shop got full amount, bought lifts & machines, a welding shop used it to buy a small building, & he works out of his truck, but has a place for his stuff. a book store was able to rent building & remodel & stock shelves.
     
  8. Brendon

    Brendon Pre-Flight

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    The sightseeing thing isn't that important, only something I wanted to do on the side for fun. If its more hassle than it's worth I won't bother.

    Do you think it would be a good idea to get something like a cessna 150 to see what ownership is like, and get something nicer if I feel I am up to it 3-5 years later?
     
  9. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel En-Route

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    A couple of thoughts. Your budget seems a little tight to me. To buy a 4-place and fly the snot out of it and maintain it right I think you'd want to have something a little more North of $100k combined income.

    Not saying it can't be done. But if its going to work on that budget, I think you would need to make other sacrifices like no dining out, cancel the cable TV and the netflix account, maybe cancel the broadband account too. You get the idea.

    The other thing I think you might want to rethink is the idea that you're going to want to fly the snot out of it. When I was getting my certs and making my way toward being able to fly for money, I wanted to fly every day and found excuses to go fly several times a week. I partnered in a Mooney at that time and when I didn't have anywhere to fly, I'd go to the hangar after work and spend time out there. Couldn't get enough.

    Then came the day that I actually got my first job (banner towing in my case) and I was flying little airplanes 7 days a week weather permitting. I very quickly got to the point where if I had a day off, the absolute last place I wanted to be was at an airport or in a little airplane. I went from flying the Mooney or just being in the hangar 3-4 times a week to being the almost never in the course of about 2 months. About a year later the other partner wanted out and the plane was sold.

    Before I got into the Mooney, I was a member of a local flying club with two Cessnas and as the carrying costs of that were cheap, I kept that membership active even when I was in the Mooney and after the Mooney was gone. I probably did all of 30 hours in those club planes in the years I was working as a pilot and 90% of those hours were sitting right seat as a safety pilot for another club member that was working on his instrument ticket and then working on staying instrument current after he got the ticket.

    On your budget and with what you're wanting to do with your career path, I would strongly recommend you find a partner or three if you're going to go into aircraft ownership. A small club with a few planes would be even better.
     
  10. AKBill

    AKBill En-Route

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    I think I would prefer something with 2 doors if I were doing sightseeing tours.
     
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  11. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    So, based on 70k a year I come up with about 3500/ month take home. maybe thats a bit low, but consider it a safety factor.
    Less 1500, 600, 400 you have 1000/month. You havent eaten, you haven't bought clothes, you havent paid various insurances, and you haven't put away any savings.

    Figure 12,000 to 15,000 a year to run a 4 place airplane 75 to 100 hours that doesnt include any maintenance gotchas.
     
  12. old_biker

    old_biker Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I don't have my ppl yet, I can only give advice on what I know, I started training 20 years ago, & stopped, & starting again this month. but I was throwing it out here as if applied you might could get $30K from 1, & $10K+ for another, & that gets you closer to size airplane that you could sight see with. potentially $40K in free money, just to open business, & if close after allotted time, money doesn't have to be repaid.
     
  13. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That's a pretty good synopsis.

    My suggestion would be to quantify how much you can save each month and from there, how much cash you will have saved at the time you are ready to buy. Finance as little as possible (none is best).

    Then figure out how much your hangar, insurance, annuals, fuel and routine maintenance will cost. Then double that (for unexpected maintenance) and hopefully it will come out to less than what your monthly savings are. You can factor in how much more you plan to earn when you are ready to buy.
     
  14. DesertNomad

    DesertNomad Pattern Altitude

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    My airplane costs me $700/mo before I start the engine ($100 insurance, $100 county tax, $500 hangar). Considering zero maintenance it costs about $50/hr in fuel, and with all maintenance included, probably closer to $120/hr. I budget about $2K/mo at a minimum. This works out to about 10 hours of flying a month.

    We did quite a few upgrades and in the first 3 years of ownership put 1/3 of the purchase price back into the plane. You also need to be ready for some big expenses that might come up. The worst of these is an engine overhaul, but it is easy to spend $3K when something breaks.

    I think your budget is a bit short and you should be looking at a 2 or 3 person partnership.
     
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  15. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    *whistles* I wouldn't even bother if I had $700/mo before I even started the engine.
    $185 for a hangar
    $80 for insurance
    $2.50 for state registration
    where I'm at
     
  16. DesertNomad

    DesertNomad Pattern Altitude

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    Where are you at in Michigan? I guess you don't have county property tax. We make up for it a bit as we have no state income tax here. My wife has family near KPTK (Oakland County) and their hangars are about $300. You can't touch a hanger in Nevada for that.
     
  17. Skymac

    Skymac Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Owned for 7, maybe just bad luck? I enjoy it and haven’t found it to be a money pit over anything else. Kept a 172 for 3 years, flew the snot out of it and sold it for a 1/3 led more than I paid for it. Just have to be smart about it and roll the dice.
     
  18. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator Final Approach

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    Didn’t see where you were located, but is sight-seeing even a viable option? Also, sight seeing in a low wing isn’t too desirable for most people, I’d be looking at a 182. Even so, unless you’re in a major tourist area, I doubt there’s enough money in it to even cover your expenses, especially the liability insurance you’d have to carry.

    Go to the pilot mill, get your Commercial ticket, then go fly jumpers, CFI, 135 ops, etc. If you want to get a personal aircraft, fine, but I’d be looking at a flying club or partnership to defray the fixed costs. If you weren’t in the service with free funds to put you through a pilot mill, I might support getting your own aircraft to possibly reduce to cost to get the instrument and commercial ratings.
     
  19. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route

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    Couple CFIs here partnered in a Cub for their own private use. They fly it when they’re not instructing. It’s airborne daily. They’ll be heading off to the airlines sooner than their colleagues at this pace.

    It’s not the 4 place plane you’re looking for, but you could always rent for the big trips.
     
  20. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    Near Grand Rapids. We have state sales tax, state income tax, and local property tax on land/housing. No taxes on airplanes other than the use tax (6%) on initial purchase. I am not aware of any property taxes on vehicles by any counties in the state.
     
  21. Brendon

    Brendon Pre-Flight

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    Military will only pay 13k of the 70k it will cost to go through pilot mill because they will only pay 13k per year. So having my own plane would potentially save costs with getting my licenses.

    However I wanted to do the atp program because I could get a loan for the whole thing and be done in 6 months. Vs the hassle of trying to do it all individually.

    I will be in Jacksonville Florida.

    Here is my career path I don't think it's unreasonable but let me know if you think it is.

    6 Mos training income $0
    2 yrs instructor income $30k
    5 yrs regional airline first officer $60k
    5 yrs regional airline captain $80-90k
    1-2 yrs major airline first officer $60-70k
    5-10 yrs major airline first officer $80-100k
    From here to retirement Major airline Captain $150-$200k

    So my income won't be great for the first 3 years or so but after that it shouldnt be a problem. Also my wife's income will go up to 80k after a couple years and possibly 100k after 5-10 years.

    I know it's best to buy a plane in cash, but if I bought a plane that was say 5-10 years old and financed it would I make up that money I am paying for interest with less maintenance costs and not needing to upgrade the plane as much ? And maybe even less fuel burn depending on the situation.
     
  22. Ravioli

    Ravioli Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    If you aren't paying cash on the barrel head, don't buy an airplane. Period. End of sentence, end of paragraph, end of book.

    Oh, but I'm gonna be a commercial pilot doing sight seeing tours in a plane with ONE door and low wings to supplement the payments. Good luck!

    When was the last time you sat in the back seat of a PA28-180 to do sight seeing?

    Ooops. Almost forgot to answer your thread question. How much airplane can you afford? ZERO.
     
  23. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 En-Route

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    Rather than ATP, you could go a different route. If military is paying 13k, that would probably get you mostly through IFR and Commercial, especially with the expedited classes, like GATTS.
    Read their prices at http://gatts.org/faq-costs/course-tuition-costs.html
    They can provide the planes (no worries about purchasing yet) and instruction through IFR/Commercial for about 14k-15k it looks like. They say there are no other costs, and it includes lodging/car, etc. The FAQ's have more info.

    After commercial, you might find a place in Jacksonville to get the CFI reasonably. (or elsewhere), but GATTS doesn't offer it. You can go back after CFI to GATTS for CFII though. Odd to me, but, a lot of things are.

    Hopefully all that won't add up to 70k. Even if it did, you haven't lost anything right? And it should be doable within 6 months without a 50k-60k loan.

    You might even have an FBO/school pay for your CFI if you sign an agreement to work for them for a while afterward.

    Also, if you get in with the right FBO, you might make more than 30k instructing (full time). One local place here was paying 30k as a base salary, and then so much per hour. This included them getting trained in the charter jets, and doing some flights in them. That salary increased also as they 'moved up' mostly to charter, and they built some good hours/training for the airlines.

    This of course depends on the Military being willing to pay for the expedited classes.

    You could also as a possibility, pass your written exams for IFR and Commercial prior to leaving the military. Then head right over to GATTS as soon as you're out.

    I have not done this, so others may have reasons why it's all a crazy idea.... but economically, it's an option I'm assuming....and again, you won't have the financial burden of owning right away.

    Honestly, I agree with others that insurance, and sight seeing, etc., wouldn't be that beneficial to your money/time line, and probably somewhat of a headache.
    You can build a lot of hours as a CFI getting paid, and let the students beat up other peoples planes ;)

    And btw, good luck.
    Great to see good planning and research being done.
    Makes for good pilots I say.... and that makes me feel safer when flying lol.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
  24. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Read the limitations on sightseeing tours in FAR 119.1.

    Bob
     
  25. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    No, you can’t afford a plane. Your current debt payments = 45% of your current net monthly earnings. Even if your net salary doubles, your debt payments are 33% of your net pay + your debt service on a plane + insurance, maintence, inspections, ect.
     
  26. Brendon

    Brendon Pre-Flight

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    Some of you are giving me good information and some of you make it seem like I need to make 250k a year to afford a cessna 152 so let me just ask you this:

    What is a good way to calculate how much a plane will cost me per month and per hour?
    These are my estimates

    Hangar $100-$200 a month
    Maintenance 10% the cost of the airplane every 100 hours (so for a 30k airplane $30 an hour)
    Insurance???
    Upgrades???

    Does this sound reasonable? Am I missing anything? Maintenance covers annual, overhaul, and unexpected costs.

    And btw the 180 was merely a suggestion, I have no idea what plane I would be getting. Right now I'm thinking something like a cessna 152 to start out with and go from there.
     
  27. chemgeek

    chemgeek Pattern Altitude

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    Owning an aircraft will not save money, but it does add convenience. If you are flying 50+ hours a year, a good crude estimate of all ownership costs for a light single is about 4X fuel, not including acquisition costs. Or look at rental rates. Owning won't be a lot different than renting in terms of total cost of operation. If you don't have enough spare cash to expend 4X fuel, BEYOND acquisition costs, then ownership will be challenging.

    Unless you spend very top dollar, you can expect repair costs for the first 2-3 years to be very high as you work through deferred maintenance of the previous owner. The better a "deal" you get up front, the more you will spend on catch-up maintenance and avionics upgrades in the first few years.

    I saved and paid cash for all the aircraft I owned, so that is not an ongoing cost. For operation cost, the 4X fuel rule has worked pretty well for me over time. The more you fly, the more stuff breaks. You will think you are beating that cost rule for a while, until you realize your engine's time has come and it's time for a major overhaul, or the FAA expects you to upgrade to GPS or comply with the ADS-B mandate, or you install highly desirable flight safety items, etc., etc. I don't begrudge the money spent, but you need to walk into ownership with eyes wide open.
     
  28. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 Final Approach

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    He bought a turbo though, which needs +2GPH at all settings from a NA, and cooks/rusts the whole engine compartment by heat proxy. Lances are otherwise just stretch arrows in the aggregate: mx pussicats. I wouldn't hesitate to own a NA one and confidently index it to an Arrow's relative level of total ownership cost.

    I will agree with him though in that the price structure of the repairs in the certified side of the hobby in the aggregate, do go beyond the pale. I fully understand the economic dynamics that lead these part suppliers (whether OEM or otherwise) to pass down the pricing structure they do, and it's ultimately on the FAA for not allowing primary non-commercial through.

    I wouldn't write off the entire market, but there's certainly a plethora of legacy airframes that, looking at a 15 year scope (I have more than 25 years of recreational flying, so it matters to me much more than the boomers), I'm not interested in dabbling in for precisely these AOG and cost-structure reasons. The writing has been on the wall for a while on these things. There's a certain signature to the kind of piston planes that will fall into this chasm, but I'm not gonna start naming names and causing a flame war here, so I'll digress.

    Sooo I took the wife to South Padre and we toured a sea turtle conservation aquarium on the beach. They emphasized the truism that not all baby turtles make it to the ocean. I've made peace with that realization.
    I sleep remarkably better ever since. :rofl:
     
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  29. Warmi

    Warmi Pre-takeoff checklist

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    “Some of you are giving me good information and some of you make it seem like I need to make 250k a year to afford a cessna 152 so let me just ask you this:...”

    You better believe it ... between me and my wife we made 230k last year and I am still often questioning myself if I can afford this ( and I only own and maintain a small , 2 seater , 120 knots LSA... )
     
  30. chemgeek

    chemgeek Pattern Altitude

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    Everyone who has not owned an airplane thinks this is true. It is not. It will likely be far less expensive to rent to train than to own. Operational costs for renting and owning are comparable, but if you rent you are not burdened with the sunk cost of acquisition. Owning is about CONVENIENCE and SAFETY, not cost savings.

    Having said, that I would never go back to renting, as it is definitely advantageous to have a well-maintained, well-equipped airplane you can access any time you want. But that comes at a real cost.

    One never really gets back the financial investment one puts in an airplane, but it is fun to pretend...I bought a 2-seat AA-1A time-builder for $6800 years ago and sold it 4 year and many hours later for $8000, but that "profit" didn't include all the improvements and upgrades I had to make in that aircraft to make it a more capable XC plane. And I dare say the same will be true of my current plane.
     
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  31. TCABM

    TCABM Pattern Altitude

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    So, recently retired military member here. A lot of what you want to do is achievable. But, it may mean some lifestyle choices and a dose of reality. My suggestion:

    1. Starting today, take all of your pay and allowances and put it in savings. Live solely off your wife’s income. That includes BAH, BAS, and any hazardous/special duty pays and bonuses. Do this until you separate.

    2. Use TA to complete a bachelor’s degree in anything, if you don’t already have one.

    3. Check out what health and life insurance is going to cost on the outside.

    4. Don’t do the loan for ATP; you’re always one medical event away from losing your medical. It’d suck to be $80K in debt for a certificate you can’t use. We talk about how no one plans to go out an get hit by a bus, yet people do that each and every day.

    5. If you really think buying is the way to go as you time build, the right partnership can be a blessing; this takes work, but it’s achievable.

    6. Ownership experiences. Call around and get local hangar rates and wait list time. Around here, I can wait it out and get a T-hangar for $350/mo or get in one tomorrow for $600/mo and not be allowed on the wait list. Research insurance costs. Figure out how, in those early CFI years, you’re going to pay for an overhaul when the engine decides to pack it in. Or even just a top overhaul...that money has to come from somewhere.

    Good luck, be informed, make smart choices for your family.
     
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  32. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel En-Route

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    Not for nothing but if you want to save money, paying $70k for an instrument and commercial ain't the way to do it. Owing a plane isn't the way to do it either.

    You've already got a PPL. Get yourself to 45 hours of cross country if you don't have it already. Should cost you about $5k-6k renting from an FBO or a flying club and you can probably do it in a month. You do it even quicker if you flew most of that at night when the FBO planes tend to sit. Study for and pass the written on your own and take another $5k and go do a 10-day instrument program.

    Then go back to the FBO or flying club and put your new instrument ticket to use flying cross countries to get yourself up over 225 total. I bet you could do it in 4 months or less for $10-15k. Study and pass the commercial written and then get a CFI to do the commercial training which should take no more than a month and have you logging your 250th hour on the way to take the checkride.

    You're in Florida so once you're at that point, go pull banners and/or drop skydivers for a season and work on your CFI on your days off. Or skip the CFI, get a multi add on and keep pulling the banners during the day and get a night job at an FBO that does air charter. Make yourself an excellent reliable employee who is easy to manage and easy to get along with (very important) and bide your time until a right seat opens up and they need someone that do the trip right now. Getting to 1500 hours with a couple hundred twin turbine PIC looks a heck of a lot better than 1500 hours of touch and goes you'd get teaching in a 172.
     
  33. DesertNomad

    DesertNomad Pattern Altitude

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    Your hangar estimate is probably low - perhaps very low.

    In 2016, I flew 150 hours and spent about $8K on maintenance (on a $120K airplane). I don't think the maintenance/cost ratio will be as good on a less expensive plane because things a like a starter cost the same on most GA planes out there. My wife and I have zero debt, and earn about $130K. Our airplane is what we've decided to spend money on but I couldn't do it with your debt level.
     
  34. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    Use that money and go to ATP at Craig Filed, KCRG. It’s right there in Jax. Close to everything and I suspect it will be cheaper for you in the long run.
     
  35. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Unfortunately at this time I don't believe solo aircraft ownership would be a wise choice for you... especially if you have other debts that you are still paying off adding on another debt like this would not be wise

    find a partnership or find a good club, save up money and then in a couple years when your financial situation is stronger than you can revisit this
     
  36. Todd82

    Todd82 Line Up and Wait

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    None. Zero. Zlilch. And I'm not being a smartarse.

    When our household income was such, and planes were much cheaper 8ish years ago, and my mortgage/college loan situation was also similar to the OP I ran the numbers and sole ownership of even a 152 was a pipedream without taking on major financial risk.

    Even now with a paid off home and college loans and decent salary bumps a PA28-180 is about what I'm looking at from a budget standpoint. Now granted I'm refusing to take on debt for a toy, but still. I think you're asking for trouble unfortunately, but IMHO, YMMV, etc.
     
  37. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg Administrator Management Council Member

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    I got my instructor ratings at ATP KCRG in 2010. If things are remotely like they were then, and I suspect things are worse, they will be humping your leg to fly for them as an instructor for some certain $chump wage. If it's like it was, you will gargle and drown on the number of hours they have you flying -- so much so that you'll not want your own plane, nor have any free time to fly one.

    As someone airline bound, I'd think this is the quicker path to that ladder. Of course, the 135s near me are hiring right seat with 250 hours, and SkyWest near me will hire you with as little as 750. If your mission is to get there quickly, seriously, 6-8 months teaching with ATP will do that, or 10-12 months with a 135 op.

    ==

    The key detail you left out in your financial details is the size of your current nest egg available for aviation. While it's easy to sign a piece of paper and take a loan on a recreational toy, any airplane toy, even a C150, is capable of reaming a $10,000 or $15,000 hole out of your checkbook -- and your banker will not be coughing up a "second mortgage" to fix it.

    I think what you want is a partnership or a flying club. The money spent is what it costs to "walk away" from the aluminum clad time bomb. :D

    $0.02
     
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  38. AA5Bman

    AA5Bman Line Up and Wait

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    You’re getting a lot of harsh responses that I don’t think are totally called for. I do agree that if you bought a plane right now, you’d probably find it pretty financially stressful and, subsequently, wouldn’t really recommend it. However, you’re not so far off, although servicing an $80k loan to ATP will make it harder. Think about a flying club or partnering on something inexpensive like an Aeronca Chief or Cherokee 140. They won’t get you as much utility as you’re probably after, but they’ll get you flying and they’re fun and affordable. Unless there’s something reeeeeally compelling about your weather/climate, ignore all the people saying you have to have a hangar. It’s a nice-to-have, but it adds a ton to the ongoing costs and if you start with a kind of ugly, basic Cherokee 140 anyway, for instance, what’s the point?

    In my opinion, you’d be best served by a flying club, and by being patient on the ownership - you’re on the right track and eventually you’ll be able to afford a nice plane, so keep plugging away at it, but patience is key. Oh, and by the way, I think aircraft prices will definitely come down in the next recession (whenever that is). Getting your income and savings up between now and then and pouncing when the market is down would be ideal.
     
  39. Lachlan

    Lachlan En-Route

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    If you have to ask then you can't afford it. <--- (That statement is so very true in almost every instance it is used.)

    Not trying to be a richard, but seriously, read and heed all the great advice in this thread, and then re-read it. Do *NOT* go into deep debt to get your ratings. What's your hurry? Are you about to age out of eligibility for the majors? If you are, then bag your plan. If you're not, then bag your plan. Read the advice in this thread, take it seriously, and follow it. I know a couple young guys that did it very inexpensively, flew tons of meat bombs and dusted plenty of crops on their way to getting to ATP. Don't spend $$$ you don't have on things you don't need when there are plenty of other ways to get there. And definitely buy a 150 or 152 because they're some of the most fun airplanes to fly when you're just flying around. (I won't pretend they're xc monsters, or fast, or even free, but it's about the closest you'll get to using "flying" and "cheap" in the same sentence.) Granted, a 150/152 is not going to align well with your flightseeing business model, but there it is.
     
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  40. Ravioli

    Ravioli Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    You might not like the tone of the advice you're getting, BUT, I'll share something with you that might put it in specific relief.

    In my 53 years exchanging air for carbon dioxide, MOST, maybe all, the good advice I received from my Father and siblings can be boiled down to "Are you ****ing kidding?" Unfortunately that works in your current model.
     
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