How is there no restriction on takeoff/landings here?

[SkyHog]

Looking at Douglas Municiapl Airport, Douglas, AZ. Runways 3/21.

The threshold for runway 3 is located exactly 550ft from the Mexican border. The runway is plenty long at 5760ft. BUT, if you wait until the AIM suggested TPA-300 to turn out after departing 21, you're going to bust the ADIZ.

Moreover, if you land on runway 3, turning base anywhere beyond 550ft from the threshold (that's really close, btw), will bust the ADIZ.

Yet, there's no NOTAM, no warning, and no restrictions on takeoff/landing. Its a non-towered airport.

How is this possible?

edit: The only warning is that on takeoff, 550ft from the runway, there's a tower, 50agl. That tower, presumably, is the Mexican border.

edit2: Here's a photo to make it easier to see:

 

[Henning]

Looking at Douglas Municiapl Airport, Douglas, AZ. Runways 3/21.

The threshold for runway 3 is located exactly 550ft from the Mexican border. The runway is plenty long at 5760ft. BUT, if you wait until the AIM suggested TPA-300 to turn out after departing 21, you're going to bust the ADIZ.

Moreover, if you land on runway 3, turning base anywhere beyond 550ft from the threshold (that's really close, btw), will bust the ADIZ.

Yet, there's no NOTAM, no warning, and no restrictions on takeoff/landing. Its a non-towered airport.

How is this possible?

edit: The only warning is that on takeoff, 550ft from the runway, there's a tower, 50agl. That tower, presumably, is the Mexican border.

Well, I couldn't find it on AOPA from your name of the place, but, I would imagine that there is a buffer zone on the ADIZ for flights originating in the US and transiting that bit of the Mexican FIR for purposes of t/o and landing at that airport. There will also be through treaty with Mexico, permission and coordination of that airspace control.

 

[SkyHog]

Well, I couldn't find it on AOPA from your name of the place, but, I would imagine that there is a buffer zone on the ADIZ for flights originating in the US and transiting that bit of the Mexican FIR for purposes of t/o and landing at that airport. There will also be through treaty with Mexico, permission and coordination of that airspace control.

My bad, its KDGL.

 

[JohnR]

Without doing any research, I'd agree with Henning.

 

[KennyFlys]

I looked at the AF/D current and upcoming issues. There's nothing mentioned. I did a local area DUAT for FDC NOTAMs and found only one item stating operation in the ADIZ must be under a filed flight plan.

I'd like to learn more about this one. Although, my current concern is simply not turning out over certain areas too low and near PDK. We don't want to tick off the anti-airport crowd who hates us rich pilots. I doubt that would be much of an issue at DGL, even with the noise abatement restriction it has.

 

[Henning]

I looked at the AF/D current and upcoming issues. There's nothing mentioned. I did a local area DUAT for FDC NOTAMs and found only one item stating operation in the ADIZ must be under a filed flight plan.

I'd like to learn more about this one. Although, my current concern is simply not turning out over certain areas too low and near PDK. We don't want to tick off the anti-airport crowd who hates us rich pilots. I doubt that would be much of an issue at DGL, even with the noise abatement restriction it has.

That is probably due to Mexican requirement for flight plans there. Note it doesn't say IFR flight plan, VFR will do.

 

[KennyFlys]

That is probably due to Mexican requirement for flight plans there. Note it doesn't say IFR flight plan, VFR will do.

Yep, I caught that.

 

[Michael]

Left traffic runway 3. Right traffic 21. Turn right immediately after departure from 21. I flew into Calexico this morning. Kinda the same. There is no way you could do left traffic for 26 you would be in Mexico. You just stay in the US and make turns accordingly.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Left traffic runway 3. Right traffic 21. Turn right immediately after departure from 21. I flew into Calexico this morning. Kinda the same. There is no way you could do left traffic for 26 you would be in Mexico. You just stay in the US and make turns accordingly.

One of those airports down on the border has an IAP that takes you into Mexico's airspace when you're landing to the North (NW? NE?). I guess they just coordinate with Mexico's ATC when vectoring you for the approach? A Letter of Agreement between the countries/sectors? I can't imagine you having to file an ADIZ Flight Plan to shoot the approach.

 

[mikea]

One of those airports down on the border has an IAP that takes you into Mexico's airspace when you're landing to the North (NW? NE?). I guess they just coordinate with Mexico's ATC when vectoring you for the approach? A Letter of Agreement between the countries/sectors? I can't imagine you having to file an ADIZ Flight Plan to shoot the approach.

It's not as much of a big deal when overflying Canada, right? Maybe common sense gets applied for once.

 

[SkyHog]

Left traffic runway 3. Right traffic 21. Turn right immediately after departure from 21. I flew into Calexico this morning. Kinda the same. There is no way you could do left traffic for 26 you would be in Mexico. You just stay in the US and make turns accordingly.

True, but in this case, even if you flew left traffic for 3, you'd penetrate Mexico on base, unless you kept it under 550ft from the threshold, which works out to be ~1/10 mile. That's REALLY close. Same with departure on 21, you'd have to be only a few feet off the deck when you turned to avoid Mexico.

 

[SkyHog]

Anyone figure this out? I still haven't.

Can't imagine that everyone that flies into this airport turns base within 1/10 of a mile of the threshold....

 

[t0r0nad0]

So I decided to take one for the team and bite the bullet and call the FBO to find out... he said that it's usually not an issue... most pilots do keep their pattern tight, and they cross over if they need to all the time. The FBO does get calls from Riverside, CA customs all the time to check traffic, but there's usually no issue with it. BTW... it is right traffic for 3 and left traffic for 21.

 

[SkyHog]

So I decided to take one for the team and bite the bullet and call the FBO to find out... he said that it's usually not an issue... most pilots do keep their pattern tight, and they cross over if they need to all the time. The FBO does get calls from Riverside, CA customs all the time to check traffic, but there's usually no issue with it. BTW... it is right traffic for 3 and left traffic for 21.

"Cross over if they need to" - does that mean they bust the ADIZ, or does the airport have some sort of exemption? I have no problem keeping it tight (ask Michael, I really prefer smaller patterns), but 1/10 of a nm is so close, you're practically turning over the numbers....

 

[poadeleted20]

I think what it means is that the pattern is watched extremely closely by those who do that sort of watching, and they don't bother folks who are flying the pattern from the north, but if you make a straight-in from the south, they'll be waiting when you land.

 

[tdager]

I think what it means is that the pattern is watched extremely closely by those who do that sort of watching, and they don't bother folks who are flying the pattern from the north, but if you make a straight-in from the south, they'll be waiting when you land.

BINGO...in other words, people are not too worried about "busting the ADIZ" when common sense shows that people are just coming in from the US side, are in a pattern to land, and must momentarily fly a few feet inside Mexico.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

The 'ADIZ' and 'busts'.
We had an airport here that was in the adiz, and you could not avoid entering Mx airspace when landing from, or taking off towards; the SW. The old Lajitas gravel strip. I was very worried about it when I first went down there and then learned from the locals that it is all moot, for Lajitas - no radar coverage anyway. The BP personnel (air and ground) in the area had real work to do, and did not care if you popped over the river for a few moments or not (they witnessed it many times) Its just an operational necessity.

Maybe someone can find a definition, but from my memory of the vfr charts, I think the adiz is actually a long narrow band and its width extends laterally from the border and then north of it for a few miles - so Douglas is probably entirely within the 'adiz'.
I doubt anyone follows the rules (flight plan, atc contact, n number size etc) for a landing there, just like they didn't here.

I see the adiz as a tool for the border folks to control activity there, but they generally use their head and don't harrass people who are not doing stupid or patently illegal stuff. Another reason I have had to respect those working the border in my area. Even if its a cold hard law on the books, it may not be enforced if there is no good reason to. Wow, the government being reasonable, will wonders never cease!

Yes, still lots of calls from Riverside, Ca. I still get a bit chilled when I land and the line guy is walking up to the airplane on a portable phone saying, "Yes, (my N number), yes (my name), yes sir, two people" like happened 2 weeks ago!

Disclaimer - this is what I have experienced here, in my area. May be completely different where you fly.

 

[Joe Gremlin]

Anyone figure this out? I still haven't.

Can't imagine that everyone that flies into this airport turns base within 1/10 of a mile of the threshold....

No trees or obsticles to clear. It wouldn't phase me to keep it inside the border as long as I flying a typical GA single but then again, I used to fly off a private strip where we would routinely turn final or turn out on departure inside of a 1/4 mile to keep the neighbors happy. It's not really tough, you just have to start down sooner and be ready to land as soon as you turn final. On takeoff it's a gentle turn as soon as you hit about 40ft AGL.

I wouldn't recommend it for students but it shouldn't be too tough for anyone with a couple hundred hours under their belt.