How is the twins market ?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by blueskyMD, Jan 31, 2019.

  1. blueskyMD

    blueskyMD Pre-takeoff checklist

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    There is a lots of discussion on other thread about how prices of airplanes increasing - mostly focused on singles. How is the market for twins doing ? If the prices for singles is going up and twins are not up that much then it might be a good time for me to move up to a twin.
     
  2. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Not a bad idea at all. The used twin market seems to be up a little, but just a small fraction of what the single market has become.
     
  3. mwagg737

    mwagg737 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Lotta bang for the buck. Just sold a Mooney to move to a 310.[​IMG]

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  4. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Hot looking bird. Congrats
     
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  5. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Looking at purchase prices, twins are definitely a good deal for what you get.

    Looking at ongoing maintenance and fuel expenses; maybe not. Twins are good for speed, useful load and a degree of safety, but as for cost? All in, they cost a lot.
     
  6. mwagg737

    mwagg737 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    A little. It's about 60% more to operate than my Mooney.
    I just figure the premium is insurance while flying at night and IFR.

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  7. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man Pattern Altitude

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    The twin market has definitely gone up. Not long ago a 337/310/Aztec/Baron with mid time engines could be had for 30-40k. Now I’m seeing 50-60 for mid time and up. Any of those with old engines and radios is worth more parted out than whole. The improving economy and the fact that aerial mapping companies are moving to twins is driving the price up.
     
  8. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

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    I've noticed a bit of an uptick in twin pricing as well but probably not as much as some singles. In the Twin Cessna world, I find it interesting that there were more 310's made than all the pressurized Twin Cessna's combined but there are usually very few 310's listed at any given time. I think it's simply that the owners of them don't want to let them go. There are 23 310's listed on controller and 205 340/414/421's listed. Maybe part of it is that the pressurized owners are all upgrading to kerosene burners?

    Either way, having rented a very capable Saratoga prior to buying our bird, I'm a fan of the speed/safety/capability upgrade at not much of a difference in operating cost vs what the Saratoga was (knowing the owner).

    Good luck @blueskyMD if you decide to pull the trigger on something with an extra prop. :)
     
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  9. Jamie Kirk

    Jamie Kirk Pre-takeoff checklist

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    When I started getting my license and was looking at planes I was told to only buy enough plane where I could still put $50,000 in a maintenance account for a single engine. Double it for a twin.
     
  10. mwagg737

    mwagg737 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Our last trip back to Illinois from Florida was late at night. Loved knowing that if the engine quit, I didn't have to find a place to die.
    Really hard to beat the combo of price, speed, utility and safety.
     
  11. Z06_Mir

    Z06_Mir Pattern Altitude

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    It's going up a little, but no where near the rate of singles. My 310 and my 182RG are probably worth the same... the 182 might even be a little higher. Jump into a twin while fuel prices are low, make sure you have a solid maintenance reserve and enjoy. You won't want to go back to a single once feel the comfort of the second engine...and alternator, and vacuum pump, and (probably) de-ice, higher useful load etc.
     
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  12. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

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    Why do aerial mapping companies want twins? I’d think they’d want either singles or fixed wing drones!
     
  13. bradg33

    bradg33 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Depends. A well-equipped later model twin? Decent values. Something older, quirky or that needs radios, paint or interior? You can't give them away.
     
  14. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    A square tail 310 no less? Now that's my dream twin :drool:. Welcome to the square tail Cessna club... though yours goes a big faster. ;)
     
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  15. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    fuel prices will stay low forever? Huh, learn something new every day....:D
     
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  16. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer Pattern Altitude

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    Love the scheme! Renault F1 from the Eighties. :)
     
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  17. mwagg737

    mwagg737 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks! Love the plane. I have always liked the straight tails.

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  18. Eric Stoltz

    Eric Stoltz Line Up and Wait

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    But ya know what? There's something kinda awesome about having to holler "CLEAR!" twice when starting up.
     
  19. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man Pattern Altitude

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    The cameras they are using now will not fit in most singles. Keystone is almost all 310s now. Geomni is using Aztecs
     
  20. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    I wish...

    There's also something awesome about shoving two throttles forward at the start of the take-off roll. ;)
     
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  21. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    Aztecs are quite popular with them as they can cut holes in the aluminum skins without structural issues.
     
  22. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    Where I am the 310s tend to be exclusively private owners and, like yours, deliver pretty incredible speed, load and IMC weather capability for what they cost to buy and operate. Far better value for the $ than the Barons, which still seem to command a premium for being a Beech I suppose. The 340s are materially more expensive to keep flying and the private guys I know here that had them stepped up to Meridians, and in one case a TBM.

    Around our joint the few 400 series are still mostly doing commercial charter work. I don't think many private owners can afford to keep those things flying. Ted's experience with his was instructive.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
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  23. blueskyMD

    blueskyMD Pre-takeoff checklist

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    What do you fly?
     
  24. blueskyMD

    blueskyMD Pre-takeoff checklist

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    May be not forever but for a long time. I am not an expert on this subject but here is what I am thinking. Us shale production of crude oil will keep going up for a foreseeable future and OPEC will react by increasing the production to drive CO price down to hurt US shale profits. OTOH more more cars will become electric , hybrid or more fuel efficient. The other components like jet fuel etc of crude oil will have demand but gasoline, not that much. This should bring gasoline prices down. Cheers and hoping for good future of GA
     
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  25. mwagg737

    mwagg737 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I think you are spot on. Back when oil was $200 a barrel, it put the production in this country in full swing. Now it's lying dormant, and OPEC knows that.
    I watched an interview which one of the OPEC top guys in his prediction was he will never see $100 a barrel oil again and if they screwed themselves by pushing the price so high.
    I sincerely hope so, because I love flying my 310 around!


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  26. BGF_Yankee

    BGF_Yankee Line Up and Wait

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    Good enough (in my opinion) that I sold our PA32R-300 for nearly twice what I paid for our PA34-200T at the end of August. Allowed for a few upgrades that I wanted to do to the Seneca.

    It probably has a lot to do with what type of aircraft you are wanting to get into. I'm noticing Barons commanding a higher price (typical for Beechcraft), but other larger twins receding slightly. Like any aircraft, if you're ready to pull the trigger when you see a deal, you can get one. They don't stick around too long.
     
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  27. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    Huh? Lying dormant? o_O
    I don't think so. And if you remain unconvinced fly to Midland, TX and have a look at what's going on right now. ;)

    Oil prices hit their nominal peak prices in mid-2008 just as the financial crisis was getting into full swing. Take a look at the chart below and check out the dates of the most recent production trough and what has happened since.

    As for OPEC "top guys", the more seriously you take them the less you'll understand about how oil markets really operate. The mainstream media ascribes much more power and influence to OPEC than it actually has been able to demonstrate over many decades.

    [​IMG]

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...els-per-day-for-first-time-ever-idUSKBN1K81XT
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
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  28. Eric Stoltz

    Eric Stoltz Line Up and Wait

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  29. Stephen Shore

    Stephen Shore Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I am also playing with the idea of getting my multi rating and buying a twin. The added safety in IMC and night is what I am looking at. The idea of floating down with a parachute (Cirrus) with no control is not appealing to me at all.

    I agree that twins are a great value on purchase compared to a complex single. The only exception seems to be the Baron - they are always priced at the high end of the twin market at least in regard to "value". The Baron does not appeal to me for a twin simply because it is a Bonanza with two engines. In my mind, one of the positives of flying a twin is the extra interior room that you can get. If I am going to fly a twin I don't want to be squeezed in like I was in a single, which is what the experience is in my opinion in a Baron.

    The Cessna twins look good to me. Very roomy and reasonably priced on the market from what I can tell.
     
  30. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I want a twin.

    I just can’t afford it.

    And I also don’t have a ME rating.
     
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  31. Sinistar

    Sinistar Pattern Altitude

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    @mwagg737 & @Radar Contact : would you guys mind sharing some Cessna 310 info?

    What is a base annual price before squawks and AD's.
    What is a typical cruise speed and fuel burn up around 8000msl.
    Are these Continentals with 1500hr TBO?
     
  32. kep5niner

    kep5niner Pre-Flight

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    I’ve budgeted $8k for the annual.
    175 KIAS @ 23 GPH
    Yes - IO470 with 1,500 TBO.
     
  33. MIFlyer

    MIFlyer Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    hey, don't be driving the prices up any further than they already are! i'm putting my shekels together here to buy in
     
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  34. kep5niner

    kep5niner Pre-Flight

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    Initial procurement cost was reasonable - in fact much less than MANY singles that could maybe accomplish the simalar mission set. My 310 cost less than my truck; however, I was searching for about 2 years, and when I saw this deal, pounced on it. Flash to bang was 6 days: it was listed on Monday on the west coast, Saturday it was in my hangar in KC. It was quite the find.
     
  35. mwagg737

    mwagg737 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Depends on how involved you want to be. I expect my annual be somewhere around about 2,000 however, I'm heavily involved with it usually do most of myself.
    Everybody makes a big deal out of twins, but it's really one airframe with two engines. outside of the larger number of cylinders, there isn't really much difference in the annual. this being said, my airplane is basically in one constant state of annual inspection. I just fix things as they come up so the annual is not a big deal.
    I run at 177KTAS at 22 GPH light and 172KTAS at gross weight.
    Mine are O-470M 1500TBO. I don't put too much stock in TBO. I do overhauls on condition.
    LOTS of room for a family of four, bags and fuel.

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  36. mwagg737

    mwagg737 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Those boys in back are 6'1". 210 and 160. my wife made the comment if she could actually turn around in the seat and sit sideways. [​IMG][​IMG]

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  37. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    I'm not gonna lecture you since you own one, but the guy asking needs to know that Cessna 310 airframes are more nuanced than you're portraying. It's not a Cherokee six airframe for instance (aka Seneca comparison).And I digress.
     
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  38. mwagg737

    mwagg737 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I understand what you're saying. And there is no doubt there are things that are unique to the 310. All I'm saying is, if you do your research and determine what the problem areas are on any particular airframe that you were looking at, and every one has their problems, they're not a big deal.
    The 310 is a great airframe, but it is not without its issues. Namely, landing gear. If you take your time and re-rig the gear (this is a reasonably easy procedure although it is time consuming) routinely, it is as reliable as any retract out there.


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  39. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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  40. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Yeah, but when you read in it looks like that $40k annual had a LOT of optional work done, including P&I (which was probably at least half of that). You can't really call it a $40k annual if you hung a new engine on. You had a $10k annual and you put a $30k new engine on, for example.

    I never took the 310 (or 414) to a specialty shop for annuals. Personally I don't feel that on a 310 it's needed for normal annuals, although there are some specialty items where it can be useful. If you go to one of the Twin Cessna specialists, yes you will have very expensive annuals every year. If you use the normal local shop, you'll probably have more reasonable ones. Seeing as I put 1,000 mostly trouble-free hours on the plane and it's still happily running, I think I did ok.

    The Twin Cessna Flyer (the major owner's group) said a short nose 310 is around $330/hr all-in to operate. I generally spent around $7-10k on annuals, but I was including some improvements in there and started out with a good airplane. I was not doing any owner-assisted annuals on that plane. Fuel burn, depending on how you run it'll be 20-30 GPH for around 170-195 KTAS (the one I flew had 520s, if you have 470s it will top out around 180-185ish depending on the plane). Lots of variability there but gives you a rough idea depending on if you're a LOP or ROP person (I'm LOP).

    The 310 is a good, reliable airplane. I would like an old straight tail tuna tanker one day.