How far from the ocean must a plane be hangared to avoid corrosion?

NoHeat

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I looked at a Cirrus for sale that had been hangared in Key West FL, and its logbooks showed lots of mentions of small repairs of corrosion. It's a composite plane, of course, but it does have metal parts, such as hinges and bell cranks on the control surfaces, and those were some of the items that had corroded.

So I passed on the plane that was from Key West.

Now I see similar planes that have been hangared in Orlando FL. Is that far enough from the ocean to avoid salt air? I'm sure pilots from Florida will know, but being based in the Midwest I just have no idea.

Also, how about Santa Monica CA? That's pretty close to the ocean.
 
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I looked at a Cirrus for sale that had been hangared in Key West FL, and its logbooks showed lots of mentions of small repairs of corrosion. It's a composite plane, of course, but it does have metal parts, such as hinges and bell cranks on the control surfaces, and those were some of the items that had corroded.

So I passed on the plane that was from Key West.

Now I see a similar plane that had been hangared in Orlando. Is that far enough from the ocean to avoid salt air?

I'm sure pilots from Florida will know, but being based in the Midwest I just have no idea.

You'll never be far enough, corrosion is more of a matter of care than location.
 
You'll never be far enough, corrosion is more of a matter of care than location.

:yeahthat:

I spent a good hunk of time flying over and next to the ocean. Salt water is extremely invasive, but as mentioned above proper care can go a long way toward mitigating the threat.
 
There are a few places in Arizona, Nevada, and south eastern California where it isn't so bad. Heat also causes problems though, messes with your avionics and paint, glare shields and such.

I doubt if there is any such thing as a perfect used airplane. No matter how great it seems, your gonna be putting money into it.

-John
 
:yeahthat:

I spent a good hunk of time flying over and next to the ocean. Salt water is extremely invasive, but as mentioned above proper care can go a long way toward mitigating the threat.

Yeah, that: (I don't know how to show that little guy with the sign).
I live in Florida, about a mile from the ocean, and a lot of our flying is over that great salt lake. Every annual my mechanic blows some anti-corrosion gunk all through the innards of my plane and it sort of leaks out for a week or two. Then I wash polish and wax it every year. So far, no corrosion problems, but after all, it is only a 1977 model. Perhaps when it gets old.
 
However far away the nearest A/P is ;)
 
How far from the ocean?

Easy, 100 yards during the day and 100 miles during the night. That's a rule of thumb mind you...



: )
 
Corrosion is all on you.

AS the coast guard poster will note above, when aircraft come back from low oceanic flights, they get thoroughly washed, and it's a matter of regular, attentive care.

There's no such thing as "salt air," by the way.

High humidity and condensation on steel parts, and poor drainage can contribute to some types of corrosion. Poor preparation of parts and underlying surfaces before painting or covering contribute to corrosion, as does improper heat treatment, electrolytic interaction between dissimilar metals (aluminum and steel, for example), and other factors. Loose parts which vibrate together cause fretting corrosion.

One thing you do want to look for is an aircraft that's been flown regularly and which has been kept in a maintained condition. There's not much worse for an airplane than neglect, especially an aircraft that doesn't fly. Don't be tempted by the lowest hours on an airframe; aircraft which don't get operated much tend to be money pits waiting to happen to you.
 
There are a few places in Arizona, Nevada, and south eastern California where it isn't so bad. Heat also causes problems though, messes with your avionics and paint, glare shields and such.

I doubt if there is any such thing as a perfect used airplane. No matter how great it seems, your gonna be putting money into it.

-John

Not so bad here either. Corrosion is uncommon.

But the flip side for our climate is:

- Higher UV means plastic won't last as long if the aircraft isn't hangared.
- Dry means every piece of rubber on the aircraft will dry-rot eventually and turn to dust, including fuel lines.
- Paint won't last long outdoors. Colors fade. Cracks and chips happen.

Etc. There's always trade-offs.
 
I think an answer to the OP's question would be seven miles inland.

Early in my career I worked for a native Floridian. He wouldn't buy a house or invest in an apartment complex (that was our business) more than seven miles from the shore. His reasoning: in the heat of the summer, the sea breeze made it approximately seven miles in. Any further in never got the cooling effect of the sea breeze.

Turning this advice around, no sea breeze means no salt air blowing inland. Stay seven or more miles inland to minimize corrosion.

This is nothing but a guess at a rule of thumb. The occasional hurricane will revoke this rule quickly and emphatically!

-Skip
 
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One thing you do want to look for is an aircraft that's been flown regularly and which has been kept in a maintained condition. There's not much worse for an airplane than neglect, especially an aircraft that doesn't fly. Don't be tempted by the lowest hours on an airframe; aircraft which don't get operated much tend to be money pits waiting to happen to you.

I agree. The same can be said about cars. If you let them sit, they deteriorate. I've never been afraid of a car with a lot of miles so long as someone took care of it.

On a side note, is it possible to spray something like WD-40 on these hinges/metal parts, or perhaps use a wax or a protectant? Maybe just a few drops of oil lightly smeared on them?
 
Not so bad here either. Corrosion is uncommon.

But the flip side for our climate is:

- Higher UV means plastic won't last as long if the aircraft isn't hangared.
- Dry means every piece of rubber on the aircraft will dry-rot eventually and turn to dust, including fuel lines.
- Paint won't last long outdoors. Colors fade. Cracks and chips happen.

Etc. There's always trade-offs.



Ditto here in NM
 
IMHO, advertising an airplane as being 'hangared' for x number of years is meaningless until you know the condition of the hangar. It depends alot on the climate and the quality of constuction and ventilation of the hangar. I've seen many hangars on th east coast that because of the high humidity, deteriorating condition of the hangar and the lack of ventilation that the airplanes kept inside were arguably worse off than those tied down on the ramp.

That doesn't mean you won't find nice airplanes in hangars on the east coast, but the climate does create some potential problems that you need to watch out for. I would be more comfortable with an Santa Monica hangared airplane than one from Florida simply based on humidity alone, but there are obviously no guarantees.
 
On a side note, is it possible to spray something like WD-40 on these hinges/metal parts, or perhaps use a wax or a protectant? Maybe just a few drops of oil lightly smeared on them?

Various protective products do exist that aid in corrosion prevention. WD-40 isn't among them, as it doesn't protect from corrosion. It's a solvent.

Popular products include ACF-50 and Corrosion X. Kroil is sometimes used, too.

Putting products that flood the airframe or that wet components does have it's disadvantages, however. They do displace moisture, and to some degree they do help prevent oxidation and form a barrier for surfaces, but they also attract dirt and grime, contribute to a gradual weight increase, and eventually moisture can get trapped in the dirt and grime and also lead to corrosion. For those that have their airframe treated with products like ACF-50, which is sprayed inside of metal airframes, the stuff keeps leaching out and dripping out for the next year. It becomes a royal pain if the airframe eventually needs refinishing, too, because it's hard to properly prep the airframe when the stuff keeps leaking out.
 
In the water is definitely too close. My neighbor rented an island in the keys for his 50th birthday and parked his Seabee in the water off shore. By the time he got home, the wheel bearings needed to be replaced. It was sort of odd seeing an airplane up on blocks in his front yard. Led to lots of comments about redneck pilots.
 
I think an answer to the OP's question would be seven miles inland.

Early in my career I worked for a native Floridian. He wouldn't buy a house or invest in an apartment complex (that was our business) more than seven miles from the shore. His reasoning: in the heat of the summer, the sea breeze made it approximately seven miles in. Any further in never got the cooling effect of the sea breeze.

Turning this advice around, no sea breeze means no salt air blowing inland. Stay seven or more miles inland to minimize corrosion.

This is nothing but a guess at a rule of thumb. The occasional hurricane will revoke this rule quickly and emphatically!

-Skip

That helps, thanks!

As for the suggestion that there is no such thing as salt air, I don't think that's right. Think of mist and fog -- that's air with small droplets of water. If the water contains dissolved salt, then the air can deposit salt onto a surface like your plane. Just to show this is so, I did a quick google of military websites, and within seconds I found a test report of "salt air" corrosion for Coast Guard aircraft.

If the breeze is different seven miles inland, then it seems to me that the mist or fog probably won't be carried that far by the breeze. That sounds like a good enough rule of thumb.

As for the discussion of methods of preventing corrosion, that doesn't help me. I'm not looking to care for a plane right now -- just buy one. In doing so, I want to filter out planes that are at higher risk of corrosion problems. Sure, if the plane wasn't washed frequently or wasn't treated then it's a greater risk, but I can't easily determine if those methods were practiced. I can more easily determine where the plane was kept, so that's why I'm asking about that.
 
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I can more easily determine where the plane was kept, so that's why I'm asking about that.
As I mentioned, get a good look at the hangar it has been kept in. That is almost more important than the location itself. Like I was saying....I wouldn't rule out a SMO based airplane just because it was near the water.
 
In the water is definitely too close. My neighbor rented an island in the keys for his 50th birthday and parked his Seabee in the water off shore. By the time he got home, the wheel bearings needed to be replaced. It was sort of odd seeing an airplane up on blocks in his front yard. Led to lots of comments about redneck pilots.

What we he there for, a week? Seems a little quick to trash a set of wheel bearings...?
 
What we he there for, a week? Seems a little quick to trash a set of wheel bearings...?

Salt water is some powerful stuff. Airplane wheel bearing seals are not exactly cutting edge technology either.
 
That helps, thanks!

As for the suggestion that there is no such thing as salt air, I don't think that's right. Think of mist and fog -- that's air with small droplets of water. If the water contains dissolved salt, then the air can deposit salt onto a surface like your plane. Just to show this is so, I did a quick google of military websites, and within seconds I found a test report of "salt air" corrosion for Coast Guard aircraft.

If the breeze is different seven miles inland, then it seems to me that the mist or fog probably won't be carried that far by the breeze. That sounds like a good enough rule of thumb.

As for the discussion of methods of preventing corrosion, that doesn't help me. I'm not looking to care for a plane right now -- just buy one. In doing so, I want to filter out planes that are at higher risk of corrosion problems. Sure, if the plane wasn't washed frequently or wasn't treated then it's a greater risk, but I can't easily determine if those methods were practiced. I can more easily determine where the plane was kept, so that's why I'm asking about that.

Forget "filtering out" unless you're looking for something overly common like a 172. You're looking at planes based on their current location, and there may be a plane in Florida that's only been there for a year of its 35-year life that's fine, and a plane in Colorado that's been there for a year and in Florida for its first 34. Plus, there are corrosion issues that have nothing to do with location, such as certain adhesives used for various things by companies like Cessna and Grumman.

Pick the plane that has the stuff you want and get a good pre-buy. If it has issues, see if you can talk the price down to something that's still satisfactory even if you need to get it repaired. If you can't come to a deal you like, walk away and start over.
 
Plus, there are corrosion issues that have nothing to do with location, such as certain adhesives used for various things by companies like Cessna and Grumman.
Not to mention <ahem> natural sources of concentrated solutions of various highly corrosive salts. Like mice. :redface:
 
Plus, there are corrosion issues that have nothing to do with location, such as certain adhesives used for various things by companies like Cessna and Grumman.


As far as I know there have been NO delamination issues with Grumman adhesives other than the planes with the "Purple Passion" glue, very early on in the production run. Most or all of these have been rectified with no further issues. Do you have any examples?

Can't comment on the Cessnas.
 
As far as I know there have been NO delamination issues with Grumman adhesives other than the planes with the "Purple Passion" glue, very early on in the production run. Most or all of these have been rectified with no further issues. Do you have any examples?

Can't comment on the Cessnas.
He isn't talking about delamination.

The issue I believe he is referring to is in regards to materials used in construction that were later determined to be corrosive.

For example, in the early Cessnas (40's and 50's) the glue that Cessna used to attach the interior to the fuselage frame was later found to be corrosive.
 
He isn't talking about delamination.

The issue I believe he is referring to is in regards to materials used in construction that were later determined to be corrosive.

For example, in the early Cessnas (40's and 50's) the glue that Cessna used to attach the interior to the fuselage frame was later found to be corrosive.


Understood, but I still haven't heard of Grumman adhesive "corroding" causing issues with the wing skins or other areas.
 
As far as I know there have been NO delamination issues with Grumman adhesives other than the planes with the "Purple Passion" glue, very early on in the production run. Most or all of these have been rectified with no further issues. Do you have any examples?

That's exactly what I was talking about. I know most of them are fixed now, but there may still be some out there, and it's mainly just an example of a reputable company having a problem that has nothing to do with being parked near an ocean.
 
The issue I believe he is referring to is in regards to materials used in construction that were later determined to be corrosive.

For example, in the early Cessnas (40's and 50's) the glue that Cessna used to attach the interior to the fuselage frame was later found to be corrosive.

Sigh... I wish it was confined to the 40's and 50's. Our 1971 model had that problem. That plus the fuel bladders was a nice $15K or so repair about 3 years ago.

Regardless, the point is that it's probably silly to restrict one's used airplane choices based solely on geography. All used airplanes will have problems. Find the plane you want, get a good pre-buy, and go from there.
 
Ok, so what is a good method,for someone who is relocating to a high humidity (i.e. swamp) coastal area of georgia, to help reduce corrosion from becoming an issue. My plane (Arrow) is flown regularly, but will sit for 3 months at a time due to work.
:edit: the plane will be hangared in a relatively new hangar.
 
As for the suggestion that there is no such thing as salt air, I don't think that's right. Think of mist and fog -- that's air with small droplets of water. If the water contains dissolved salt, then the air can deposit salt onto a surface like your plane. Just to show this is so, I did a quick google of military websites, and within seconds I found a test report of "salt air" corrosion for Coast Guard aircraft.

There is no such thing as "salt air." Suspended moisture in a corrosive environment, yes, especially in humid areas where condensation is a factor. Salt, however, does not go into solution in air, and is not carried by air. Spray, mist and other forms of precipitation or suspended moisture, yes. Salt in suspension in the air, and salt air, no. There is no such thing as salt air.

Areas of high humidity, with higher moisture content, tend to show higher rates of certain types of corrosion. Add seaspray, which is not air, that value may be increased, as salt and other electrolytic additives in water do act as agents facilitating greater rates of corrosion. One sees the same thing in areas where a lot of salt is put on the roads for ice in the winter; one could say it's splashed in the air, and vehicles used in those areas do experience increased corrosion, but it's hardly "salt air."

I know there are much better products out there but WD-40 does inhibit corrosion.

Despite claims that WD40 inhibits corrosion, it is untrue. WD40 makes the claim, but does so falsely. WD40 also claims that their product is a lubricant, which is also patently untrue. It is a solvent. It is NOT a lubricant. WD40 stands for Water Displacement, formula 40; it does a fairly poor job of displacing water, forms no significant lasting barrier, does not hold up to water, washes away easily, and does not create a barrier or film that inhibits corrosion, especially salt water. It does okay with fresh water, to a point. It's not long lasting, and it's not great, but better than nothing.. Given that WD40 is a solvent, it does just the opposite of protecting, except for it's limited ability to displace water. It's use can promote corrosion.

WD40 does not cause corrosion, but it can remove oils which do help insulate against corrosion, and allow corrosion at an accelerated rate.

You'll see a few tests below in which WD40, while not outstanding, does a passable job on ferrous metals for relatively short durations. Compared to some products which do claim corrosion protection (but really don't offer any), it does a fair job, but then one might as well use kitchen cooking spray, baby oil, or any number of other lightweight, temporary products.

Some various unscientific tests that use WD40 and other popular products that are frequently used for corrosion prevention on firearms, boats, or simply metal test strips, are below:

An unscientific test of several lubricants and oils rated WD40 as "good" to "very good" in preventing corrosion: http://www.thegunzone.com/rust.html

A similarly unscientific test with good things to say about WD40: http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforum/showthread.php?50463-Corrosion-protection-comparison-test

Not so much good to say (worked okay for a few days in fresh water, not at all in a salt water environment): http://www.thehulltruth.com/sportfishing-charters-forum/123560-test-corrosion-inhibitor-sprays.html

In this particular view, WD40 wasn't very good, but definitely wasn't the worst: http://www.accuratereloading.com/rustest.html

WD40 did well in this demonstration: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=...inic-Knowing-the-Limits-of-Rust-Preventatives

However, for a better view of the results of using WD40, see: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=103924&page=7

The WD40 version begins at 31:42 in this video; the creator of the video doesn't have anything bad to say about the product; it's not the best, not the worst. Bear in mind that these are rusted nails, not aircraft. Compared to 40 weight motor oil, the WD 40 did worse. We don't smear motor oil on the airplane to prevent corrosion, and there are significantly better products that actually are designed for corrosion prevention available, that we do use. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNbw0vRjH2s

Bear in mind that in the latter test, the WD40 nail rusted sooner and faster, outperformed up until day 14, and finally rusted completely by day 14. The author of the test suggests it outlasted other products, but that outlasting was by one day. It rusted over a day later than the other products, and many of these "tests" were similiar in nature.

When you're looking for something to protect your aircraft, getting the redneck-bandaid in a can, WD40, as your product of choice is a bad idea.

Also bear in mind that the materials used in the above tests were ferrous, and while that may have some bearing on 4130 steel, it doesn't have as much importance to other types of common corrosion, especially in aluminum alloys, magnesium, and other metals, especially types of corrosion that have other mechanisms of corrosion than straight oxidation. Galvanic and electrolytic corrosion aren't going to be greatly inhibited by WD40, and again, several other actual corrosion inhibitors are available that one is much better advised to use on one's aircraft.

Ok, so what is a good method,for someone who is relocating to a high humidity (i.e. swamp) coastal area of georgia, to help reduce corrosion from becoming an issue. My plane (Arrow) is flown regularly, but will sit for 3 months at a time due to work.
:edit: the plane will be hangared in a relatively new hangar.

Hangaring is a step in the right direction. Climate controlled helps. An aircraft that's regularly cared for and washed with fresh water, kept waxed and which is the subject of frequent attention stands the best chance of avoiding corrosion in general. You could go with a fog treatment of ACF-50 or Corrosion X; this has advantages and disadvantages as discussed.
 
There is no such thing as "salt air." Suspended moisture in a corrosive environment, yes ...

The only difference in our opinions is terminology -- you seem to define "air" differently. To me, if the atmosphere has suspended droplets of moisture, the atmosphere is still air, and this is still so whether the droplets have dissolved salt or not. It is the salt in the suspended droplets that can promote the speedier corrosion, which was my concern in my original post, and this is what I called "salt air" in exactly the same context it was called that in the scientific paper that I linked to.
 
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Ok, so what is a good method,for someone who is relocating to a high humidity (i.e. swamp) coastal area of georgia, to help reduce corrosion from becoming an issue. My plane (Arrow) is flown regularly, but will sit for 3 months at a time due to work.
:edit: the plane will be hangared in a relatively new hangar.

If it is a newer hangar, then chances are it won't be too much of an issue. It is usually the older hangars built in the 40's and 50's that I have seen the most problems.

Most important thing to look for is good ventilation, preferably some kind of fan that will keep the air moving. The other big thing to look for is some kind of insulation or anti-sweat coating. Otherwise, it can be dry outside.....and raining inside your hangar.

As a last resort, if it is really bad, you can invest in a dehumidifier for your hangar.


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There is no such thing as "salt air." .
Tell that to any old sailor who has fought corrosion on the flight deck (or a the ship) or ever worked the P5M/ or any other sea plane.

When you can figure a way to separate the salt spray from the wind carrying it, let me know. We can make a fortune.
 
There's no such thing as "salt air," by the way.
Uh, well, yes there is. The ocean breeze often carries with it a fine "mist" of salty water that, depending on the coastline, can go more than four stories high and blow inland a mile or more. Ask an air conditioning company in a coastal town how many outdoor condenser units they replace on the barrier island vs how many on the mainland. Check the lenses of your sunglasses or your windshield after a few hours at the beach. Look at the air inlets of a turboprop after an approach to a shoreline airport.
 
Uh, well, yes there is. The ocean breeze often carries with it a fine "mist" of salty water that, depending on the coastline, can go more than four stories high and blow inland a mile or more.
No, that's salt spray or airborne precip. If I spit on you, it's not spit air. If you wonder through a swarm of bees and get stung, it's not the result of bee air. If you get salt spray on your car, it's not salt air.

If you get salt on your car or your sun glasses or your fourth story window pane as a result of mist, then you have mist. Not salt air.
Thank you for proving tens of millions of WD-40 users for 6 decades wrong.

Funny, they never voted with their feet!

Ignorance and cheap doesn't make it so; people buy keltec handguns, k-mart tools, and dine at McDonalds, too. None of those are signs of quality, despite tens of thousands and millions sold. You won't find many of those tens of millions buying WD40 to corrosion proof their aircraft. You also won't find that many who actually know what they're buying. Most think it's a lubricant.
 
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The fact is that if you park your plane near the coast, salt is in the air and it will coat your plane.
 
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