How Do You Read a Checklist?

Captain

Captain

Final Approach
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Do you do your flow and then grab the checklist and read it? Do you look at the items as you read or just check them off in your head as you read never looking away from the sheet of paper in front of you?

In a crew we do challenge and respond (mostly) where the PM reads the thing whilst the PF verifies the item and makes a verbal response. I can't freaking tell you how many time I find myself reading a checklist as PM and notice the PF is reading his checklist too! Presumably to ensure his responses are standard.

If I say 'Gear' as a challenge I want to see you look at the gear indicators and say 'Down 3 Green'. I don't care if you screw up the response. Say, "I see 3 pretty lights and the round rubber things are down'. But when I see all your doing is looking at a f'ing sheet of paper on your yolk clip and reading back what it says, 'Down 3 Green' before you wait for my next challenge I go bat crap crazy.

What are we doing here?!? What's the point of the two of us reading a really bad story to each other during a critical phase of flight while NOBODY is looking at the GD GEAR!!!! (okay, I do look at every item too but that's not the point.)

Today we fire up the plane and we're going over our clearance and making sure the route is programmed propperly in the box. I bring up the appropriate page on the FMS and say, "Okay, what's our cleared route?" The FO says we got a full route and starts reading it. I'm following along in the FMS ensuring it correct when I notice something odd out of the corner of my eye. His hands are in his lap and he appears to be looking down. I look up an over at him and he's reading the fixes and airways off the F'ING FMS! So he's reading what I'm reading and somehow that confirms our route? I asked where the clearce is and he said he wrote it down on the flight plan, pointing to it folded up on the glare shield.

OMFG. Really? What's the point of you reading to me what the box says. I can read what the box says. I thought we were confirming a route and it's proper entry, but apparently we're watching you read to me. Like I can't read for myself.

Sometimes I swear to God the level of stupidity astounds me.
 
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Bit of a rant there, sorry. But geeze, really?
 
This is what is known as a "teachable moment."
 
Flows to act, check lists to check; "challenge and response" settings only one person has a checklist, the other has eyes on the item.
 
See? Even iHenning gets it!


Okay, that wasn't nice. I was just kidding iHenning.
: )
 
Captain said:
See? Even iHenning gets it!


Okay, that wasn't nice. I was just kidding iHenning.
: )
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Dude, I'm so with you on that rant. Nothing amazes me more more than a person who has owned/flown a 172 for hundreds of hours and flights that picks up the check list, reads each item then does it.
 
Can't relate. I just fly the tiny little planes about one third your size that go putt putt, putt putt.
 
In my primary training I was only taught a flow for an in flight engine restart. My transition training instructor introduced me to the idea of using flows for all tasks and backing that with the checklist. I much prefer this and it has made my engine start and run up phases much quicker than when I was using the checklist as a "do-list". I use a checklist designed specifically with this in mind and the format it follows is meant for a quick read confirming all items were visited during the flow.
 
I do the flow, then use the checklist. Most of my flying is single pilot, so when it's time for the checklist, I call the item, look at the switch or instrument, identify its setting and then refer to the checklist to verify that the response was correct. When I fly with another pilot, we use challenge and response.
 
spinfire said:
I use a checklist designed specifically with this in mind and the format it follows is meant for a quick read confirming all items were visited during the flow.
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Did you make your own? I do that for the planes I'm flying repeatedly, I'll sit in the plane with the lists, create flows out of the sections and make my own check lists to meet them. It not only gives you a great check list, by the time you're done, you'll have found every switch and breaker once. It really makes my life a bunch easier.
 
I watched an airline crew do an entire call and response from memory for the CVR while the PF did it all and the PNF filled out his application for FedEx. They had everything the CVR wanted to hear, memorized. ;)
 
Captain said:
Do you do your flow and then grab the checklist and read it? Do you look at the items as you read or just check them off in your head as you read never looking away from the sheet of paper in front of you?

In a crew we do challenge and respond (mostly) where the PM reads the thing whilst the PF verifies the item and makes a verbal response. I can't freaking tell you how many time I find myself reading a checklist as PM and notice the PF is reading his checklist too! Presumably to ensure his responses are standard.

If I say 'Gear' as a challenge I want to see you look at the gear indicators and say 'Down 3 Green'. I don't care if you screw up the response. Say, "I see 3 pretty lights and the round rubber things are down'. But when I see all your doing is looking at a f'ing sheet of paper on your yolk clip and reading back what it says, 'Down 3 Green' before you wait for my next challenge I go bat **** crazy.

What are we doing here?!? What's the point of the two of us reading a really bad story to each other during a critical phase of flight while NOBODY is looking at the GD GEAR!!!! (okay, I do look at every item too but that's not the point.)

Today we fire up the plane and we're going over our clearance and making sure the route is programmed propperly in the box. I bring up the appropriate page on the FMS and say, "Okay, what's our cleared route?" The FO says we got a full route and starts reading it. I'm following along in the FMS ensuring it correct when I notice something odd out of the corner of my eye. His hands are in his lap and he appears to be looking down. I look up an over at him and he's reading the fixes and airways off the F'ING FMS! So he's reading what I'm reading and somehow that confirms our route? I asked where the clearce is and he said he wrote it down on the flight plan, pointing to it folded up on the glare shield.

OMFG. Really? What's the point of you reading to me what the box says. I can read what the box says. I thought we were confirming a route and it's proper entry, but apparently we're watching you read to me. Like I can't read for myself.

Sometimes I swear to God the level of stupidity astounds me.
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Did he previously enter and confirm the route for himself?
 
denverpilot said:
I watched an airline crew do an entire call and response from memory for the CVR while the PF did it all and the PNF filled out his application for FedEx. They had everything the CVR wanted to hear, memorized. ;)
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An airline crew that couldn't do that would concern me a lot more...:D

I used to do a Glass Bottom Boat tour on Catalina that was 45 minutes of spiel 9-13 times a day. After 4 days everybody has it down, after a couple weeks you can do it in your sleep. I came back with a family in their Westport 130 18 years later and took the kids on the GBB tour and could still do it.
 
If I say 'Gear' as a challenge I want to see you look at the gear indicators and say 'Down 3 Green'. I don't care if you screw up the response. Say, "I see 3 pretty lights and the round rubber things are down'. But when I see all your doing is looking at a f'ing sheet of paper on your yolk clip and reading back what it says, 'Down 3 Green' before you wait for my next challenge I go bat **** crazy.
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Valium. Look into it.

OMFG. Really? What's the point of you reading to me what the box says. I can read what the box says. I thought we were confirming a route and it's proper entry, but apparently we're watching you read to me. Like I can't read for myself.

Sometimes I swear to God the level of stupidity astounds me.
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Seriously. Look into it.

You must really be a joy to fly with.

Even in a challenge and response environment, in a two-crew or larger cockpit, flows backed up by the verbal checklist is the norm, and even in such environments, when someone misses a call, it's a good time to teach, rather than belittle.

I read a lot of your rants carrying on about the stupidity of others in your cockpit and in your world. It's a constant theme with you. Perhaps this is your first position as captain and your first jet job, and perhaps you're fairly in experienced; I don't know, but you come away sounding like that much of the time.

You need to take a proverbial chill pill and relax a little more, before you give yourself a coronary. Seriously.
 
DouglasBader said:
Valium. Look into it.



Seriously. Look into it.

You must really be a joy to fly with.

Even in a challenge and response environment, in a two-crew or larger cockpit, flows backed up by the verbal checklist is the norm, and even in such environments, when someone misses a call, it's a good time to teach, rather than belittle.

I read a lot of your rants carrying on about the stupidity of others in your cockpit and in your world. It's a constant theme with you. Perhaps this is your first position as captain and your first jet job, and perhaps you're fairly in experienced; I don't know, but you come away sounding like that much of the time.

You need to take a proverbial chill pill and relax a little more, before you give yourself a coronary. Seriously.
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Wow. Really?
 
AuntPeggy said:
Wow. Really?
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I read much the same. I've been operating as a captain for 25 years and the complaints I hear are pretty funny and something a captain is supposed to teach and correct on the first time they notice. It's all minutia that you have to expect considering the state of training and pay in the industry, you just aren't going to get the best and brightest for applicants most the time.

Then letting it annoy you on top of it....
 
Henning said:
I read much the same. I've been operating as a captain for 25 years and the complaints I hear are pretty funny and something a captain is supposed to teach and correct on the first time they notice. It's all minutia that you have to expect considering the state of training and pay in the industry, you just aren't going to get the best and brightest for applicants most the time.

Then letting it annoy you on top of it....
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The position of Captain, then, is always a teaching position?
 
AuntPeggy said:
The position of Captain, then, is always a teaching position?
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Oh my God yes! I am responsible for the training of every one of my crew. If I have a Chief Engineer I can delegate the training of the engineering crew to him, but I'm still responsible for it. It's actually the part of my job that consumes the majority of my time, supervising and instructing.

It's so ingrained into the position that the ATP certificate is also a defacto CFI certificate for industry training requirements.
 
I sorta blow off steam here. Plus, it's a posting style I've perfected...take a small thing and zoom way in on it to the point where it's obvious it's a big thing.

No, I do not explode in the cockpit and belittle anybody. That green picture below my name...that's not what I look like in real life either.

: p
 
It is proposed that "Captain," Master Bader, and Ron be locked in the same room for 30 days. They should be fed, watered, and the "honey" bucket should be emptied daily.

At the end of their 30 days of "therapy" they will be monitored in an attempt to detect any human characteristics. If none are found they should go back in for another 30 days...
 
My plane senses switch position on most of the items on the checklist, so we use flows then run the checklist, skipping anything over that hasn't turned green. A before start checklist may have 12 items on it, but after doing your flow there are only 2 things left. Those two things are read by the FO/PNF and responded to by the CA/PF. Depending on the checklist and the particular item, they have already been accomplished by a flow or may be a read-do item (setting the flaps for takeoff as an example).
 
Henning said:
Did you make your own? I do that for the planes I'm flying repeatedly, I'll sit in the plane with the lists, create flows out of the sections and make my own check lists to meet them. It not only gives you a great check list, by the time you're done, you'll have found every switch and breaker once. It really makes my life a bunch easier.
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I do this. And yes, my checklists get longer as a result. But they're still CHECKlists, not DOlists, though they can be used as do-lists when learning the airplane.
 
Man, I'm feeling inadequate. I'm in my (small piston single) plane for 4 months and about 50 hrs and am still read the starting and runup checklists item for item. Read the checklist item, physically check the item, slide my finger down to the next item, and repeat. The only spots that deviate from this are a few things that are potentially time sensitive. On start-up, switching from the left to both mags, turning on the alternator field half of the master switch, and checking oil pressure. On run-up its going through the mag and carb heat checks. Even those I will go back through the checklist items to verify that I hit them all.

I don't think that I am missing anything, but I would change if it meant improved safety. What's the downside of doing it this way (other than a few seconds of time)?

Emergencies are memorized flow checks.
 
And yet Skiles and Sully missed the ditch switch on their emer approach on the Hudson. Go figure.
 
I mix it up. a few parts will be read check read check and other parts will be do a flow then review - like the runup for instance. sure i know what to do but i want to make sure nothing is skipped. and for the student (?), keep doing it that way - eventually you'll get it down where it will go fast and smooth.
 
Henning said:
Did you make your own? I do that for the planes I'm flying repeatedly, I'll sit in the plane with the lists, create flows out of the sections and make my own check lists to meet them. It not only gives you a great check list, by the time you're done, you'll have found every switch and breaker once. It really makes my life a bunch easier.
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I use one created by my transition training instructor for the Cardinal RG, specifically designed for confirming flows. If I didn't have that I would have made my own. But it turns out this one is basically exactly as I would have done it.
 
I have to go with Captain on this one, he related two instances that could have ended badly. Certainly the first one anyway.
 
Checklist until I can do the flow blindfolded without thought. Then flow only. I couldn't tell you half the stuff on the checklist on the Cherokee I grew up flying yet if you sat me in either front seat right now, I could go through the flow most likely without missing anything...and I haven't been in that plane since 1986.

I've seen too many people do something like read and say "aux fuel pump on" then reach over and touch the switch or, more recently, read and say "overhead heavy object release pin secure" and reach over and touch the pin with their finger. They read, they talk, they touch, they do not confirm. There's a difference between touching an object and verifying it's position. People see but they don't observe. There is a BIG difference between "lightly touch object with finger tip while distracted reading" and "touch object and verify it is in the up position by tactile and visual feedback." It's about the mindset of how to observe, not just see things.

Maybe I'm crazy and the checklist or death types will want me banned from the board for this however... Contrary to popular belief, Cessna 150 and most of the garden variety fixed gear fixed pitch dirt simple GA planes do not need a multi page fine print checklist to operate. A 150 is about as complicated to operate as my motorcycle. Seriously, why would you need a checklist to preflight the right wing on one? It's a wing, aileron, flap, a few hinges and pushrods, wingtip, light, air intake, strut, fuel cap and fuel drain - it's really not that difficult and if it is, you should go back to MSFS. (I will not read the checklist in a 150 on short final no matter how much the CFI is crying about imminent death because I'm not reading the paper in his hand - it's not safe to be reading a novel while that slow and close to the ground when you should be looking out the windows. Besides, there is not anything inside the plane to be fiddling with at that point anyway)

Obsessive compulsive disorder is a good thing when you're solo in the shuttle trying to set 3500 you-will-certainly-die switches prior to re-entry lest you burn up like a meteor. It's not such a good thing when there's only a dozen buttons, dials and switches in the entire plane and most of which are feel good about yourself radio stuff.
 
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Captain said:
I can't freaking tell you how many time I find myself reading a checklist as PM and notice the PF is reading his checklist too! Presumably to ensure his responses are standard.
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You each have your own checklist? :confused:
 
If you're flying for someone else, often you don't have the luxury of making your own checklist. When I'm flying single pilot cockpits, I often have my own checklists that are arranged for better grouping, readability, association, and flow. I don't like checklists that jump around. I also like checklists which reduce my workload or reduce the number of items by putting certain items together.

One should always be blindfold-familiar with the cockpit. If not, then get there. Be able to close your eyes and find everything without having to hunt for it; reach out and touch it. If your'e that familiar with the cockpit, learning flows should be easy.

Flows are not meant to be a replacement for checklists. Flows are meant to facilitate doing what needs to be done in an orderly, concise manner. The checklist is there to verify that it was done. Sully and Stiles didn't execute the ditching checklist because they had priority things to do; namely, flying the airplane.

When single pilot, I make a habit of executing the checklist out loud, same as if I were in a crew cockpit.

It's not uncommon to find something during a checklist that I missed on my flow. That happens; that's why we have the checklist.

Even in emergency procedures which have memory flows, we always go back and read the checklist afterward. The main thing is to get it done. The second main thing is to make sure you go it done.

Most crew cockpits use one checklist which is read by different parties, depending on the phase of flight and who is flying. Some checklists are executed out loud, others silently. For example, we have two checklists that are done silently. After takeoff in a sterile cockpit, especially in a busy terminal area may not be the place to be doing the checklist. In our case, the final call for flaps is "Flaps up, after takeoff checklist." The Flight Engineer then begins the after takeoff checklist, which he will stick with until we're through 18,000', when the unneeded exterior lights are shut off. He does this silently, then announces the checklist is complete.

Regardless of what's being flown, checklists are important. How they're used or executed varies, and should vary, according to the need and situation.
 
Clark1961 said:
It is proposed that "Captain," Master Bader, and Ron be locked in the same room for 30 days. They should be fed, watered, and the "honey" bucket should be emptied daily.

At the end of their 30 days of "therapy" they will be monitored in an attempt to detect any human characteristics. If none are found they should go back in for another 30 days...
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I don't care who you are.......... That's funny right there.:yesnod::rofl::lol::D
 
I read a checklist left to right and top to bottom... It's written to match the flow that works for the plane...

I can understand why Captain would be unhappy with the FOs handling of the situations he mentioned and I imagine I would have explained my concerns right then and there. The teaching moment strike while the iron is hot (or maybe not so hot) thing and all.
 
Jeanie said:
I read a checklist left to right and top to bottom... It's written to match the flow that works for the plane...

I can understand why Captain would be unhappy with the FOs handling of the situations he mentioned and I imagine I would have explained my concerns right then and there. The teaching moment strike while the iron is hot (or maybe not so hot) thing and all.
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I guess you haven't flown one of the old Challenger jets then.
 
bkspero said:
Man, I'm feeling inadequate. I'm in my (small piston single) plane for 4 months and about 50 hrs and am still read the starting and runup checklists item for item. Read the checklist item, physically check the item, slide my finger down to the next item, and repeat. The only spots that deviate from this are a few things that are potentially time sensitive. On start-up, switching from the left to both mags, turning on the alternator field half of the master switch, and checking oil pressure. On run-up its going through the mag and carb heat checks. Even those I will go back through the checklist items to verify that I hit them all.

I don't think that I am missing anything, but I would change if it meant improved safety. What's the downside of doing it this way (other than a few seconds of time)?

Emergencies are memorized flow checks.
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You're the kind of pilot I love to fly with, methodical and consistent. Check lists are one of those things that help us fight off the sometimes powerful urge to just get going. Listen for example how many pilots are told reset transponder squak XXXX by tower because they forgot to put in their code. Or watch how another pilot doesn't look out the window the first ten minutes of flight because they are trying to finish all the checklist items.

In my case I remember times when not using the check list bit me. For example when fuel is getting low and you're thinking about going to your alternate, then realizing you forgot to reset the totalizer and now you're relying on the gauges (makes you really mad at yourself).
 
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Alexb2000 said:
In my case I remember times when not using the check list bit me. For example when fuel is getting low and you're thinking about going to your alternate, then realizing you forgot to reset the totalizer and now you're relying on the gauges (makes you really mad at yourself).
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Write down engine start time. (Or in my case, that's what the little moveable red hands on my analog clock are for... otherwise the silly thing is utterly useless. Engine start, set clock hands. Done.)
 
denverpilot said:
Write down engine start time. (Or in my case, that's what the little moveable red hands on my analog clock are for... otherwise the silly thing is utterly useless. Engine start, set clock hands. Done.)
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Sounds like a checklist item.:)
 
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