How do you do this?

spiderweb

spiderweb

Final Approach
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Ben
Specifically, how do you brief an approach. Would anything change if you have to land at an airport at which you didn't originally plan to land; thus, the plate is new to you?

I ask this because my method of briefing the approach takes too long.
 
wangmyers said:
Specifically, how do you brief an approach. Would anything change if you have to land at an airport at which you didn't originally plan to land; thus, the plate is new to you?

I ask this because my method of briefing the approach takes too long.
Click to expand...

Brief the miss first.

Then brief the DH/MDA.

Next the final, then the intermediate segments. You should already know the arrival segment to expect, so that briefing will be done early on.

Frequencies set (or GPS load approach).

Happens sometimes - last time into Sugarland was expecting the GPS approach to the south, previous plane went missed and we ended up flying the ILS to the north.

The more difficult ones are the parallel runways where they sidestep you to the parallel approach.
 
Before I go, I'll use a highlighter on the 'important' stuff on both destination and alternates. (Inbound heading, MDA/DH, Navaid Freq.) At least you can get those dialed in if you missed everything else...
 
AirBaker said:
Before I go, I'll use a highlighter on the 'important' stuff on both destination and alternates. (Inbound heading, MDA/DH, Navaid Freq.) At least you can get those dialed in if you missed everything else...
Click to expand...

I concurr whole hardedly and even add a few airports,(safe havens) along your route in case everything in front of you starts going down hill, including the alternate. This has happened to me a few times so I keep a list of airports ( safe havens) and approach charts ready to be put to use if neaded. I don't have to go "fishing" if things go down hill. It may be overkill but I know where to get the information quickly when I need it.

John J
 
Since I use Jeppesen, I start at the top of the chart. I use the briefing strip (tm) to setup my radios and get ready for the missed. From there, I brief the lateral views (courses and bearings) and finally, the vertical profile to get the call-outs and time.

I try, very hard, to do it the same each time. Repetition is the mother of skill.
 
(1)How do I fly the miss. How to identify the fixes. Do I have SE climb power to do the miss?
(2)How do I fly the approach at hand- ID the navaids, identify the fixes.
(3)DH (MDA); timing if applicable. Is my MDA higher because of components of OEI conditions? Do I have the choice?
(4)What will I do if the navaid goes down inside the IAF?
(5)Where will I go when I miss? (Another airport- "NXXYYZ, say intentions!")
 
Ben:

What they taught at Recurrent Training Center was this:
MSA; know what altitudes are in the MSA as you approach
ALTs: approach altitudes (intercept, steps and MDA or DH)
Course:
IAF,
FAF,
MAP,
Missed.

They teach to look at the approach in the order in which you will use the information.

You're supposed to do this after you get the ATIS 40 to 50 miles out. I do the FAATS test posted before. Then as I get closer in, I review things again until I'm sure I have it set in my mind.
Put the approach sheet on the yoke or tape it as Doc does.
I actually draw a couple of key places on my knee board: DH in a box where I can look down and clearly see it without searching the chart. Final course sometimes.

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS
 
Thanks for all the responses! I'm really asking you to be even more specific. For example, if you say, "Here, I brief the missed," what does that mean? Do you simply say the instructions out loud, for example?

What I do is to brief the approach sometime before or during the transition. (I've already gone over the plate back at home). But I've been reading the thing out loud, and setting up the frequencies as I do the briefing. It just seems to take too long, and I still can't seem to commit everything to memory. This leads me into a situation where I'm on the final approach segment trying to concentrate on the needles, but getting distracted because I doubt myself since not everything is memorized.
 
I was taught, via the Cessna Pilot material, that the most important thing on the missed to memorize is the first thing. "Fly Runway heading, climb to 3000" for example. You gotta know that part. After that, and you are stabilized and climbing right, you can then take a glance at the rest of the missed.

Memorize the basics, final approach course, key frequency, how low can you go, where is missed point and what do you do first on missed.

Jim G
 
We're going to do the ILS 35R at Denver, charts' 11-1 dated 24 March 04, localizer frequncy is 108.5, 350 inbound, glideslope intercept at DYMON is 7000. Decision Height is 5640, airport elevation is 5431, touchdown is 5431. Missed approach will be climb to 10,000 feet then right turn direct GiLL and hold. We need 1800 RVR with everything working for the approach. Questions?

I don't have an approach in front of me, so I'm guessing at the numbers, but gives you an example of how we do it. Some of that like chart date is verification so we are both on the same page.
 
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Speed said:
We're going to do the ILS 35R at Denver, charts' 11-1 dated 24 March 04, localizer frequncy is 108.5, 350 inbound, glideslope intercept at DYMON is 7000. Decision Height is 5640, airport elevation is 5431, touchdown is 5431. Missed approach will be climb to 10,000 feet then right turn direct GiLL and hold. We need 1800 RVR with everything working for the approach. Questions?
Click to expand...

Here it is....
 
bbchien said:
(1)How do I fly the miss. How to identify the fixes. Do I have SE climb power to do the miss?
(2)How do I fly the approach at hand- ID the navaids, identify the fixes.
(3)DH (MDA); timing if applicable. Is my MDA higher because of components of OEI conditions? Do I have the choice?
(4)What will I do if the navaid goes down inside the IAF?
(5)Where will I go when I miss? (Another airport- "NXXYYZ, say intentions!")
Click to expand...

What are OEI conditions again?
 
gkainz said:
Isn't it One Engine Inoperative?
Click to expand...

Oh. Sorry. Yes. One Engine Inop.

Ben I've been thinkg about this a bit. I think that it is rather like learning chinese...If it wasn't taught to you FIRST (as in my case). Eventually you just get it. I wouldn't sweat the briefs, just keep covering the essentials, eventually your vocabulary gets big enough that you can read the whole newspaper.

I have to think about what I'm doing now in order to figure out how I brief. I have to think about what I'm doing to figure out how I scan....it's more like, "hmmn how comes that needle isn't horizongal (or vertical!)" as the case may be.

Eventually you automatically ask..."hmmn how essential is the GPS for the NDB substitution for the approach?" or "how useful is the localizer w/o the G/S?. Unusual approaches stick out like a sore thumb at you and beg for attention.

:)
 
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This does not incude checklists which vary by plane.
A Mice ATM

A - ATIS (get the info and most likely the approach into field XYZ)
M - Marker Beacons (check 'em)
I - Ident the plate / freq / radio (yes- I'm flying the correct approach)
C - Course (know your final approach course heading)
E - Entry (vectors, HPILPT, Out n' back...)
A - Altitudes (mins and step downs)
T - Time (hit the FAF - start the watch)
M - Missed approach (know it)

This is what I use, and I don't find it takes long at all.
 
While my full approach checklist is more involved, my quick-and-dirty approach checklist (unanticipated approach, or one I'm really familiar with) is MARTHA.

MA (missed approach procedures: initial turn, initial altitude, initial fix)
R (radios: everything tuned and identified for the approach as you plan on flying it)
T (times: time from FAF to MAP for non-precision approaches)
H (heading: final approach heading)
A (altitude: minimum altitude: DH or MAP)

And I wrap it up with a "what's going to hurt me" view of the plate: obstacles, minimum safe altitudes, best escape direction.

Dan
 
Thanks, Bruce. That analogy hit the spot!

bbchien said:
Oh. Sorry. Yes. One Engine Inop.

Ben I've been thinkg about this a bit. I think that it is rather like learning chinese...If it wasn't taught to you FIRST (as in my case). Eventually you just get it. I wouldn't sweat the briefs, just keep covering the essentials, eventually your vocabulary gets big enough that you can read the whole newspaper.

I have to think about what I'm doing now in order to figure out how I brief. I have to think about what I'm doing to figure out how I scan....it's more like, "hmmn how comes that needle isn't horizongal (or vertical!)" as the case may be.

Eventually you automatically ask..."hmmn how essential is the GPS for the NDB substitution for the approach?" or "how useful is the localizer w/o the G/S?. Unusual approaches stick out like a sore thumb at you and beg for attention.

:)
Click to expand...
 
That's a good one. I use PAIN CALL. But the second A is where the approach brief is supposed to take place. It seems a bit late.

N2212R said:
This does not incude checklists which vary by plane.
A Mice ATM

A - ATIS (get the info and most likely the approach into field XYZ)
M - Marker Beacons (check 'em)
I - Ident the plate / freq / radio (yes- I'm flying the correct approach)
C - Course (know your final approach course heading)
E - Entry (vectors, HPILPT, Out n' back...)
A - Altitudes (mins and step downs)
T - Time (hit the FAF - start the watch)
M - Missed approach (know it)

This is what I use, and I don't find it takes long at all.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks, Dan--that's a good one, too!

Dan Smith said:
While my full approach checklist is more involved, my quick-and-dirty approach checklist (unanticipated approach, or one I'm really familiar with) is MARTHA.

MA (missed approach procedures: initial turn, initial altitude, initial fix)
R (radios: everything tuned and identified for the approach as you plan on flying it)
T (times: time from FAF to MAP for non-precision approaches)
H (heading: final approach heading)
A (altitude: minimum altitude: DH or MAP)

And I wrap it up with a "what's going to hurt me" view of the plate: obstacles, minimum safe altitudes, best escape direction.

Dan
Click to expand...
 
wangmyers said:
Thanks for all the responses! I'm really asking you to be even more specific. For example, if you say, "Here, I brief the missed," what does that mean? Do you simply say the instructions out loud, for example?
Click to expand...

This might be useful, it might not.

So as far as setting up the approach, do that as the equipment comes available. That may be before or after the briefing, but I don't believe they are the same thing. You can load frequencies if you have frequency stand-by quite early, but you can't set courss until you're either on vectors or passing the IAF.

Once you have the approach setup, you may or may not use a checklist to ensure the setup is correct. But that also is not a briefing, in my opinion.

Think of the briefing as the process of describing, preferably out load, the approach to a co-pilot who does not have a copy of the approach in front of them (which they should do if you really have a co-pilot of course). While you don't need excruciating detail, after the briefing this mythical co-pilot (who has a perfect memory by the way) should be able to monitor the approach. In addition when you ask at the end of your briefing "any questions" - there shouldn't be any.

Hope that helps.
 
John J said:
I concurr whole hardedly and even add a few airports,(safe havens) along your route in case everything in front of you starts going down hill, including the alternate. This has happened to me a few times so I keep a list of airports ( safe havens) and approach charts ready to be put to use if neaded. I don't have to go "fishing" if things go down hill. It may be overkill but I know where to get the information quickly when I need it.

John J
Click to expand...

I guess I do this same thing when flying amongst the more central part of CA. Since my checkride loop (and lessons) were to 3-5 common airports, I have those charts in protective sheets. I know those approaches by heart, and if all else went bad I would want to shoot one that I know well.
 
Everyone has their own acronyms to use, however part of one that makes sense to me involves the use of the audio panel. Since you have all those buttons across the top consider this. Comm1 Comm2 Nav1 Nav2 DME Markers (etc).

Comm1 might be approach/tower
Comm2 Atis
Nav1 Your approach navaid
Nav2 Missed navaid
DME - if applicable
Markers - Armed/tested

This might be a little much to set up each time, but I try to use it if I have the time to get it going.
 
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