How do they come up with Gross Weight

Jaybird180

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What are the factors that determine Gross Weight when an aircraft is certified? What allows them to increase it? Is it calculated? What happens when you go 1 pound over?

The companion to this question is how do they determine the CG range?
 
What are the factors that determine Gross Weight when an aircraft is certified?

- Power, to achieve the 'climbs with flaps' criteria
- Strength of the landing gear
- Weight carrying capacity of the parachute (Cirrus)
- Airframe strength (g-loads)
.
.
.

What allows them to increase it?

Depending on what the limitation is in a particular airframe, changing the governing parameter can lead to a gross weight increase.

e.g.
- putting a turbonormalizing system on a A36 Bonanza yields a gross increase
- changing the performance charts and limitations in the POH and some placards can give you an increase
- replacing the landing gear arc on ea early DA40 with a thicker one will increase allowable weight
- replacing some brackets in the landing gear in some Socata planes will give a landing weight increase.
- Putting wing extensions with or without Flint tip-tanks will give a increase on some Cessnas (as the fuel is not stressing the spar and the airfoil creates enough lift for the additional fuel at the tips)
- changing aircraft category from 'utility' to 'normal' will yield an increase in some aircraft (lower required design loads)
- reducing elevator travel (---> lower max g-load) can provide an increase

What happens when you go 1 pound over?

Your plane is immediately pulled from the air by an invisible hand and smashed against the next mountain.

Well, in reality, nothing happens with 1 pound. In Alaska, some charter operators are allowed to operate 15% above gross routinely, ferry pilots fly planes 10,15 and 30% above gross after obtaining flight permits. You go over and you either bend the aircraft or run into a guy in green corduroy pants, you may have some unpleasant experiences with 'the goverment'.

The companion to this question is how do they determine the CG range?

Lol, a guy with a sheet of milimeter paper and a ruler makes it up. The same thing as with the gross weight, 1 mm back or forward and you are immediately doomed.

No, they do some math and make some guesses and then confirm during the flight-test program whether the aircraft performs to specifications (e.g. stall speed, spin recovery) at the margins of that envelope.
 
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the most basic and obvious gross weight limitation is the strength of the structure although there is a lot more that goes into it. There are several certification requirements that require a certain level of performance at gross weight which limit it more than structural requirements. For example at gross weight the plane has to be able to climb at a certain rate with full flaps. this is why when you take a 40deg flap 172 and limit it to 30deg the gross weight increases.

CG range is mostly a matter of stability, especially the aft limit. the combination of wing design and horizontal area pretty well define how aft the CG can be and the plane still be stable. The forward limit i suppose is set by elevator authority to lift the nose for takeoff and landing as well as perhaps the bending strength of the fuselage as putting the weight further forward requires more downforce on the tail and more lift from the wing.
 
Neat question!

There are lots of trade offs that the designers are making. Some listed above are the certification criteria (e.g. climb rates with full flaps). This is a power to weight/drag question. For standard category aircraft it must be able to handle 3.8 positive g's and 1.5 (I think) negative g's, which is a structural strength issue.

My airplane (PA-32) has a zero fuel maximum weight of 3100lbs, meaning that you can't load so much stuff in the cabin and baggage compartments that it weighs more than the ZF without fuel (max gross is 3400lbs). As I understand it this is an issue of main spar strength. The main spar carries all of the landing loads and if you've got too much cargo then the main spar may not be able to handle a bad landing. You can add fuel over the ZF weight because the fuel is outboard of the landing gear and actually reduces the load on the main spar during landing.
 
They collect and publish pictures of Walmart people.
 
What are the factors that determine Gross Weight when an aircraft is certified? What allows them to increase it? Is it calculated? What happens when you go 1 pound over?

The companion to this question is how do they determine the CG range?


The following is my guess:

Gross weight and power is determined by what market the designer is going for. They look for their "spot" in the market, and set certain design parameters. For example, they say they want a: single engine airplane, with an 18,000 foot service ceiling, to cruise at 155 knots, with a 1000 nm range, and have a useful load of 900 lbs.

They design everything else more or less around that. They have certain metrics they can use to estimate max gross weight intially, by looking at other similar aircrafts useful load to max gross ratio and stuff like that.

As far as what happens when you go one pound over, well, that makes you a test pilot. It could mean that a certain part will see more oscillatory load and now its fatigue life doesnt match what it was certified to, it could be nothing, or it could be something much more critical.


CG range as said, is based a lot on stability characteristics of the airplane, and control responsiveness.
 
The following is my guess:

Gross weight and power is determined by what market the designer is going for. They look for their "spot" in the market, and set certain design parameters. For example, they say they want a: single engine airplane, with an 18,000 foot service ceiling, to cruise at 155 knots, with a 1000 nm range, and have a useful load of 900 lbs.

They design everything else more or less around that. They have certain metrics they can use to estimate max gross weight intially, by looking at other similar aircrafts useful load to max gross ratio and stuff like that.

As far as what happens when you go one pound over, well, that makes you a test pilot. It could mean that a certain part will see more oscillatory load and now its fatigue life doesnt match what it was certified to, it could be nothing, or it could be something much more critical.


CG range as said, is based a lot on stability characteristics of the airplane, and control responsiveness.

Increase the speed and you have my ideal airplane (LOL)
 
Don't forget the effect that changing regulations will have on the number also.

There's a paper STC for my aircraft, certified under the old regulations, that raises its max gross takeoff weight from 2950 to 3100 lbs, with zero changes.

The reason is that later model years with the exact same airframe were certified under new rules, and received that 3100 lb takeoff / 2950 landing number, and an enterprising person realized that if they could do it, so could the previous models with the exact same airframe.

They applied for the STC, and got it. Now they make roughly $3/lb to sell that piece of paper that allows the Cessna 182P to magically have a 3100 lb. gross takeoff weight today when it had a 2950 yesterday.
 
Take the marketing department's numbers, divide them by the engineering department's numbers, and that's what the FAA accepts.
 
What are the factors that determine Gross Weight when an aircraft is certified? What allows them to increase it? Is it calculated? What happens when you go 1 pound over?

The companion to this question is how do they determine the CG range?

Weilke's got a great answer... I'm going to reorganize it and add a few bits:

- Power, to achieve the 'climbs with flaps' criteria

- putting a turbonormalizing system on a A36 Bonanza yields a gross increase

Limiting the flaps on the C172/C182's to 30 degrees allows a higher gross weight - Cessna did this themselves after a while. Also, adding a bigger engine can do the same thing.

- Strength of the landing gear

- replacing the landing gear arc on ea early DA40 with a thicker one will increase allowable weight
- replacing some brackets in the landing gear in some Socata planes will give a landing weight increase.
- reducing elevator travel (---> lower max g-load) can provide an increase

Those early DA40's had a MGW of 2535 and MLW of 2407. With newer landing gear, they got the MLW up to 2535 as well, and increased performance as part of the bargain, too.

Later on, another mod became possible that raises the MGW to 2645. It's a collar that limits elevator travel. That might have something to do with the G-load, but I know of at least one airplane where the same thing was done (limiting up-elevator) to give it friendlier (ie recoverable) spin characteristics.

- Airframe strength (g-loads)

- Putting wing extensions with or without Flint tip-tanks will give a increase on some Cessnas (as the fuel is not stressing the spar and the airfoil creates enough lift for the additional fuel at the tips)

Same with the Comanche/Twin Comanche. Oddly enough, in the Twin Comanche the tip tanks raise the MGW by 125 lbs, but that extra weight must be fuel in the tips (so, kind of like a zero-fuel weight, but specific to those tanks). However, on Ed's single Comanche, there's no such limitation on the extra weight.

- changing aircraft category from 'utility' to 'normal' will yield an increase in some aircraft (lower required design loads)

I haven't seen a pure-utility category aircraft, but this is why the Cessnas and other such birds that can be flown in either normal or utility category have the separate envelope with lower MGW for the utility category.

Well, in reality, nothing happens with 1 pound. In Alaska, some charter operators are allowed to operate 15% above gross routinely, ferry pilots fly planes 10,15 and 30% above gross after obtaining flight permits. You go over and you either bend the aircraft or run into a guy in green corduroy pants, you may have some unpleasant experiences with 'the goverment'.

Well, things DO happen - But it's not an instantaneous change with one pound, and those same things usually change within the envelope as well. For example, changes in weight change nearly all of your V-speeds. You know how your stall speed goes down when you're lighter (and in turn, your landing speed, at least if you don't want to float)? It goes up when you're heavier. Many of the things published in your POH are based on the published maximum gross weight and they'll change when you're over gross. Vx, Vy, Va, Vg, etc. will all change, as will anything else that's based on angle of attack.

One interesting read on this subject is the TCDS for the C172 or C182. There's a specific note in them about operating up to 30% over gross for ferry flights - It still requires a permit, but they at least put the limitations in there so you're not guessing. In addition to what's already been mentioned, Vne goes down IIRC.

So, when you're operating over gross, even if the structure is strong enough to take it, you need to be aware of what else is changing as well. In addition, while it may be fairly clear what the *first* limitation is in terms of gross weight (that'd be the one that everyone modifies for the MGW increase on a particular type), you don't know what the *second* limitation is. So if you decide you're going to operate a 172N over gross and just not use the last notch of flaps, how do you know that the wing is designed to take the extra weight?

While the planes will handle a small difference, our calculations aren't as accurate as we'd like. Did you weigh the change in your passengers' pockets? How about the lunch they just ate? Most folks' weight is measured when they're mostly naked, shoeless and nothing in their pockets, and before they've had anything to eat or drink for the day. (Not to mention, they'll usually tell you their most optimistic number.) Most airplanes have gained some weight in dirt in the carpets/seats, stuff that got thrown in the baggage compartment and forgotten that ended up under the seats (and hopefully nowhere else), POH supplements, wiring under the panel, etc. that hasn't been accounted for in its normal empty W&B numbers. So, let what little extra the plane may handle make up for those differences, and don't purposely load the plane over gross unless you have a permit to do so.
 
I haven't seen a pure-utility category aircraft, but this is why the Cessnas and other such birds that can be flown in either normal or utility category have the separate envelope with lower MGW for the utility category.
Bonanza. Debonair. DA-20. All utility only.
 
Limiting the flaps on the C172/C182's to 30 degrees allows a higher gross weight - Cessna did this themselves after a while. Also, adding a bigger engine can do the same thing.

There's other oddities too, in the cross-over years when they re-certified under the current rules from CAR 23.

The next model year 182 after mine has 150 more pounds MTOW, zero change to flap travel or airframe structure. It's the basis for the paper STC that can add that same additional weight to our 1975 P model.

Cessna found it convenient to re-certify for various reasons, to include that the Skylane II avionics package was popular (IFR) and heavy. They didn't want to give up useful load in the stack. ;)

I haven't seen a pure-utility category aircraft, but this is why the Cessnas and other such birds that can be flown in either normal or utility category have the separate envelope with lower MGW for the utility category.

I don't remember this being true of the Skyhawks I flew. They had a CG limit to keep it forward, but weight didn't change, I don't think. Can't find my old POH though.

I always remembered it as being a limit on aft-CG to keep spins from flattening out too much in the mid-70s 172s. There was no line across the top of the CG graph splitting Utility and Normal Category horizontally that I recall on the left edge of the graph.

But that was a looooong time ago. Memory ain't that good. ;)
 
I don't remember this being true of the Skyhawks I flew. They had a CG limit to keep it forward, but weight didn't change, I don't think. Can't find my old POH though.

I always remembered it as being a limit on aft-CG to keep spins from flattening out too much in the mid-70s 172s. There was no line across the top of the CG graph splitting Utility and Normal Category horizontally that I recall on the left edge of the graph.

But that was a looooong time ago. Memory ain't that good. ;)

Bad news, Nate, your brain's failing. ;)

POH not necessary - I just looked through the C172 TCDS, and every model that's certified in Utility (the Gutless isn't) has a lower gross weight than when operated in the Normal category, by about 300 lbs. in most cases.
 
Heh. Well that was 1992 or so... Maybe 1993...

I was kinda addicted to spins back then but I was also a skinny kid. ;)
 
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