How do the airlines do it? (red board cross-post)

tdager

tdager

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LittleIronPilot
So the wife and I are heading down to Key Largo in May to do some diving. While doing the planning we have three options we have been comparing: flying commercial (to MIA), flying our C182 (to X51, Homestead) - both of which involve getting a rental car, or driving down. We live just south of Atlanta.

I have crunched numbers seven ways from Sunday....and it is almost double for me to fly down than it is to take Delta (I do not do sunk costs; just fuel, tie downs, etc). The flight times are almost identical, even if you take into account the leaving two hours early to get to the airport!

So now the wife is wanting to take commercial.
frown.gif
She is not afraid to fly (we flew to Tampa a couple of years ago), and truly supports my aviation habit (hell we live in a fly-in community, how is that for support!). However not being IFR certified (and thus risking spring fog/weather) and the fact we save almost $300 is really having her say "let us just fly the bus".

Ugh.....I feel guilty. I spend a lot of money to own a plane, we do fly places for fun and vacation, and loading up my own plane with dive gear and not worrying about paying extra for baggage, damage to gear, etc. is really nice....but paying double?

This is what I get for being married to an MBA/banker.

So am I wrong for still wanting to fly? Should I feel so guilty about leaving my plane home instead of flying ourselves?
 
I am not sure what you mean by the thread title.

But here goes my answer to the rest of your post.

Plan on the trip being done with your airplane and the alternative with the car, or a combination of both.

Planning any long trip with GA, even when IFR certified, leads to these same questions. What I do is plan for back ups and make my go no-go decision early enough to have my back up plan in place. In your case your back up plan could be to drive to the keys. I am aware of how long of a drive that really is, but it could also be a fun drive if planned right. You can stop along the way and see things you might not otherwise have planned on.
 
Don't travel to/from a hub city and it all changes. Last month I went to Florida, and I only spent $40 more to fly there and back in my Comanche (from Michigan mind you) than it would have cost to go on the cheapest GRR-(insert hub)-JAX flight. And I beat the airlines door to door by over 2 hours on the way down - if they aren't delayed. Of course on my plane I didn't go GRR-JAX and JAX-GRR, I went GRR-SRQ-FMY-JAX-GRR. Price that out on the airlines, and I absolutely blow them out of the water.

Pretty much anywhere east of the Rockies I am going to win time wise, and cost will be close to a wash, if not in my favor.

PS - yes you should feel guilty.
 
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Depending on the destination, how much you're bringing along (checked baggage charges), and how much flexibility you want, it may or may not be cheaper to take the airline. That's really nothing new.

Out of the DC area, there is no way I can compete with an advance purchase on Southwest or JetBlue on a hop to the Boston area. Anywhere from $120 to $200 RT on an advance purchase basis.

On the other hand, if I have to make a last minute trip, with something that may change (e.g. refundable tickets), flying my plane can be cost competitive. And if I need to make multiple stops along the way (example of a trip I did a few years ago: San Antonio -> Memphis -> Charlotte -> Blacksburg -> Ft. Meade, MD area -> Winchester, VA -> Cincinnati -> San Antonio) my plane looks very attractive.

If you go on Delta, include any fees for checked bags (like $30 apiece these days), overweight bags (carrying diving gear?), airport parking, brain-damage of "security", etc. etc. You might also include any time that you'd otherwise have to spend in your plane hopping around the patch for currency and to keep the plane in good operating condition.

In the end, though, you probably will find it cheaper to take the airline. And cheaper still to drive your car.

The only way to really justify private plane over airline is taking a trip to somewhere not "well served" by airlines.... examples I've used include Hatteras or Ocracoke, NC, and Cooperstown, NY.
 
As someone who goes through a lot of 100LL and is not unfamiliar to bad weather, there are still times when I take commercial. In fact, last week while in LA I was going to head up to San Francisco to have dinner with my dad for a night. Originally planned on renting a 182RG and flying up, but ended up hopping on Southwest. Cost about half as much, about the same travel time, schedule wasn't really impacted, and I didn't have to worry about weather, mountains, etc. at night in an unfamiliar plane and unfamiliar area. Plus I didn't have any baggage, just me.

If you have a lot of diving gear and stuff to take with you, the convenience of fying yourself might be worth it, but you do always have the potential of getting delayed due to weather. Of course, if you get delayed down there and get to do more diving is it really that bad? ;)

I wouldn't feel badly either way, just do what you feel is best. If the wife wants to go commercial, then maybe that's the way to go. If it's a bad experience, next time she might say "I don't care if it costs more, let's take our plane."
 
I have never had delays in my own plane which were nearly as bad as those with scheduled carriers (actually, with AA).

Ed notes the significance of traveling to and from a major hub - but what he misses here is, you are also at the mercy of the dominant carrier when you start or finish there. AA at DFW has no real interest in "reasonable" pricing (whatever that is) if they own the city pair. You know an airline has a very high fare when the cost of flying yourself - all alone - is still less than the airline's fare.
 
Thanks everyone...I know the wife will understand and trust me on this so I am going to plan for us to fly our own plane down. I just cannot get myself on a commercial airliner knowing we can go when/where we want in our own aircraft.
 
tdager said:
So the wife and I are heading down to Key Largo in May to do some diving. While doing the planning we have three options we have been comparing: flying commercial (to MIA), flying our C182 (to X51, Homestead) - both of which involve getting a rental car, or driving down. We live just south of Atlanta.
[snip]
This is what I get for being married to an MBA/banker.

So am I wrong for still wanting to fly? Should I feel so guilty about leaving my plane home instead of flying ourselves?
Click to expand...

Something else you might want to consider: Do you care if your
diving gear gets damaged, lost, or stolen?
 
Ted, remember that he's not supposed to fly within 12 or 24 hours of a dive. So getting in an additional dive probably isn't going to happen.
 
tdager said:
Thanks everyone...I know the wife will understand and trust me on this so I am going to plan for us to fly our own plane down. I just cannot get myself on a commercial airliner knowing we can go when/where we want in our own aircraft.
Click to expand...
The two places I fly to frequently are both hub airports and served by Southwest, so, unless I fill the plane to capacity, I can not come close to beating the airlines by cost. Time, on one I can come close, the other, not so much. MDT-LAX is going to be commercial, because I haven't talked my wife into 17 hours of sitting in Twinkie yet.

I find the biggest benefit is experience, currency, and the less hassle of the airport. I can load anything I want, and not worry about paying extra or having my luggage gone through. If I have the money, I am OK with it. If not, I either go commercial or don't go.
 
My wife -- not an avid flyer -- prefers to fly GA with me.

She doesn't like recirculated air, doesn't like the "rough landings", doesn't like the long lines, baggage hassles, and inflexibility, and trusts me completely.

In return, I'll only launch when I can be assured of a relatively smooth flight.

So flexible scheduling is required.

The differences in price factor far down the list.
 
I negotiated a flying budget with my wife. That money is for flying small planes, not big planes. So, when it comes to vacation time, if we go little, the flying budget helps out the general budget. If we go big, the tickets come out of the general budget.
Basically, I can artificially make flying commercial seem a whole lot more expensive.
As for delays: We took a trip to Port Aransas (from Denver) last fall, and we were stuck in Port A for an extra 2 days because all of central Texas was socked in. I'm VFR only. And then we had a magneto die in Amarillo, so we were stuck there another two days. All told the trip was 4 days longer than planned and cost twice as much. That said we had a great time and would do it again (but not the magneto part, that sucked)
 
It's called "marginal cost pricing," and that's why the airlines are always in financial trouble.
 
dmccormack said:
Now that the weather's improved I'll fly once a week or so instead of drive my long commute.

The total cost per trip is about double.

So?
Click to expand...


In the Cheif?

That surprises me, The T-Craft I fly uses almost exactly the same amount of fuel per mile as my Jeep Comanche (~20MPG). I guess it makes since if your driving a small economy or hybrid car.

Brian
 
brcase said:
In the Cheif?

That surprises me, The T-Craft I fly uses almost exactly the same amount of fuel per mile as my Jeep Comanche (~20MPG). I guess it makes since if your driving a small economy or hybrid car.

Brian
Click to expand...


Well, by the time I drive to/from airport (30 minutes, 20 miles each way for 1.5 gallons @ 2.80/gal in my 30mpg Honda Accord) and get from destination airport to workplace (taxi until I stage a motorcyle at the field) I'll end up spending more.

Fuel to/from is 4-5 gal in the Chief, there and back (35-40 min total each way).

It also takes as much time (1:25 door-to-door drive/walk vs. 1:20 or so drive/fly/drive).

BUT!

Flying makes the whole commute seem like a fun thing to look forward to as opposed to something to be endured.

:yesnod:
 
Throw one big delay via the airlines, and it is REALLY easy to justify the cost of flying yourself. I sat at the Columbus, OH airport for 5+ hrs last Friday waiting to take a 1.5 hr flight. I could have flown myself down and back in the time it took to do it via the airline. Not to mention the headaches of going through "security".

If you DO decide that you need to go by airlines, let me know and I'll be more than happy to take your 182 out for a hop while you're gone... You know, don't want it to feel left out or anything. ;)
 
tdager said:
So the wife and I are heading down to Key Largo in May to do some diving. While doing the planning we have three options we have been comparing: flying commercial (to MIA), flying our C182 (to X51, Homestead) - both of which involve getting a rental car, or driving down. We live just south of Atlanta.

I have crunched numbers seven ways from Sunday....and it is almost double for me to fly down than it is to take Delta (I do not do sunk costs; just fuel, tie downs, etc). The flight times are almost identical, even if you take into account the leaving two hours early to get to the airport!

So now the wife is wanting to take commercial.
frown.gif
She is not afraid to fly (we flew to Tampa a couple of years ago), and truly supports my aviation habit (hell we live in a fly-in community, how is that for support!). However not being IFR certified (and thus risking spring fog/weather) and the fact we save almost $300 is really having her say "let us just fly the bus".

Ugh.....I feel guilty. I spend a lot of money to own a plane, we do fly places for fun and vacation, and loading up my own plane with dive gear and not worrying about paying extra for baggage, damage to gear, etc. is really nice....but paying double?

This is what I get for being married to an MBA/banker.

So am I wrong for still wanting to fly? Should I feel so guilty about leaving my plane home instead of flying ourselves?
Click to expand...
Paying an extra $300 to get there by a method that you truly enjoy versus one you don't is reason enough to justify the cost.

Have a 5 hour delay pop up and you'll wish that you would have paid that extra $300.

Not everything in life needs to make complete financial sense - one has to weigh in happiness which should have a dollar value as well.

I only wish the airline flights I'd typically make could be flown GA for $300 more. It's generally thousands for me, and even then, I still prefer GA if I can somehow convince myself I can blow the money :)
 
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jesse said:
Paying an extra $300 to get there by a method that you truly enjoy versus one you don't is reason enough to justify the cost.
Click to expand...

Don't forget that every flight you make adds to your experience level. That is worth something, too.....

-Skip
 
LOL...it really was easier than I thought.

"Honey I WANT to fly our plane"....pause...."OK if that is what you want to do we will do that."

I LOVE my wife!
 
CJones said:
Throw one big delay via the airlines, and it is REALLY easy to justify the cost of flying yourself. I sat at the Columbus, OH airport for 5+ hrs last Friday waiting to take a 1.5 hr flight. I could have flown myself down and back in the time it took to do it via the airline. Not to mention the headaches of going through "security".
Click to expand...

For me the security hassles, baggage hassles, and schedule hassles are generally all I need to justify GA, even though Homeland Security has still tracked me down in the Aztec. However we all know that delays can be just as long if not longer with GA aircraft. On my second cross-country trip of the year in the Aztec I had a mag problem in Nebraska that delayed me a day and weather problems in Iowa that delayed me another day. If I had tried to come back straight from Nebraska without heading to Arizona, I would have been weather delayed for several days anyway, so I figured I might as well head out west where the weather was better.

To me, it's about the quality of delays, not just quantity and total time. I got stuck in Nebraska with Jesse and Tristan, and got stuck in Iowa with my girlfriend. Neither of those are bad places to get stuck, so the delays were fun. A lot of times when you're stuck on commercial, you're stuck in a commercial airport that you can't leave in an area that you don't know anybody in.

A lot of times GA gets you there when commercial can't. A lot of times commercial gets you there when GA can't. All depends on the day and the route.
 
I have a trip from Denver to Albuquerque in June. Right now, it's exactly the same price and the same time (door to door) to fly Southwest as to fly myself. And I have the added convenience of my luggage with me, a chocolate shake, no need to take off shoes, and I get to carry a weapon. (When you live and fly out west, a really good hunting knife is part of the essential emergency gear)

Plus my car is in the hangar, nice and safe. My schedule with no fees if I want to come home early or stay longer.

Pretty much anything under 750 miles is less convenient by commercial. I don't worry about the IFR issue - if it's hard IFR out here, it's very likely the commercials are on a hold anyway.
 
tdager said:
Thanks everyone...I know the wife will understand and trust me on this so I am going to plan for us to fly our own plane down. I just cannot get myself on a commercial airliner knowing we can go when/where we want in our own aircraft.
Click to expand...

Glad to hear it!

I was going to suggest that if you did go commercial, you should just write SSSSSS in big black letters on her boarding pass, that'd help you go GA the next time. ;)

To financially justify it, you could point out that the sunk costs are wasted if you don't use the airplane. Weak, maybe, but true. Financial justifications rarely work out in favor of GA. However, even when it doesn't, if it wasn't "worth it" in your heart, you wouldn't go. So sure, look up airline prices... And then just go with your gut and you'll never regret it. :yes:
 
Could it make sense to fly to another airport? Don't know that area real well, but there seem to be some other choices. Landing at Key West and driving back could be fun. Marathon worthwhile?

Best,

Dave
 
Another consideration:

The airlines have all reduced their fleets to such a degree ... that if/when a flight is
canceled, you may be [re]booked on a flight 2-5 days later.

Example:

This past Friday I was scheduled to fly DCA-DTW. The flight was canceled. The next
avail seat (with a SEAT ASSIGNMENT) was late Sunday afternoon. Their suggestion
was that I spend Fri/Sat/Sun just hanging out at DCA in the event that a seat
randomly opened-up. I rented a car and drove ... 11 hours.

Nickel & Dime'd:

Airlines are charging fees for all sorts of things. USAir charged me $1 for a 4 oz glass
of water last year. Want a refill? That'll be another $1. AA wants $8 for a pillow and
another $8 for a blanket. RyanAir charges for visiting the lav. Mesaba (Delta) doesn't
even have beverage service on flights < 500 nm.

If you've got to stick to a schedule, drive the 10 hours. It's cheaper and more
certain. Otherwise; it's a crap-shoot regardless of whether you are traveling by
airline or Skylane.

Given the dive gear, I'd rule out the airlines. If they lose/damage your gear, it's
more than an inconvenience. I remember three trips to Tahoe, in three consecutive
years ... NWA lost my ski gear on all three trips.

Renting gear; sucks. Especially dive gear.
 
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tdager said:
I have crunched numbers seven ways from Sunday....and it is almost double for me to fly down than it is to take Delta (I do not do sunk costs; just fuel, tie downs, etc).
Click to expand...

My one question I have is.. what sort of tickets are you comparing with the cost of spamcan do-it-yourself?

If we are talking about advance sale, non refundable tickets that you purchase weeks in advance, yea.. Delta/SWA/COA/NWA will prolly come in cheaper every time.

I ALWAYS compare the cost to a same day/next day ticket, because thats what the true utility of your own plane is all about.. leaving on YOUR schedule, not the airlines, having the freedom to leave a day, an hour, a week later, take a detour, stop someplace along the way.. etc..

Its been a while since I've spread my wings, economic downturn and all, but every time i compared same day airlines (coach/steerage) to spamcan, they came pretty close to even, if not favoring the spamcan.

Whats the cost difference if you were to leave TOMORROW? And is the difference worth the loss of personal freedom to you and the missus..
 
rainsux said:
Another consideration:

The airlines have all reduced their fleets to such a degree ... that if/when a flight is
canceled, you may be [re]booked on a flight 2-5 days later.

Example:

This past Friday I was scheduled to fly DCA-DTW. The flight was canceled. The next
avail seat (with a SEAT ASSIGNMENT) was late Sunday afternoon. Their suggestion
was that I spend Fri/Sat/Sun just hanging out at DCA in the event that a seat
randomly opened-up. I rented a car and drove ... 11 hours.

Nickel & Dime'd:

Airlines are charging fees for all sorts of things. USAir charged me $1 for a 4 oz glass
of water last year. Want a refill? That'll be another $1. AA wants $8 for a pillow and
another $8 for a blanket. RyanAir charges for visiting the lav. Mesaba (Delta) doesn't
even have beverage service on flights < 500 nm.
Click to expand...
Funny you should mention that. I flew to Florida on Saturday afternoon. The weather was not great around Chicago and really worse to the east.

Lots of flights delayed or canceled. When I got the Florida lots of people were going to be stuck for a couple of days because there simply were not seats for them. I went to pick up my rental car and the guy at Avis was telling me how lucky I was to get one as most of their cars were now being rented by people driving home instead of waiting until Monday or Tuesday to take their plane ride.

The lack of real travel alternatives is going to be a problem. The airlines should not be the ONLY way to travel in our country.

rainsux said:
Given the dive gear, I'd rule out the airlines. If they lose/damage your gear, it's
more than an inconvenience. I remember three trips to Tahoe, in three consecutive
years ... NWA lost my ski gear on all three trips.

Renting gear; sucks. Especially dive gear.
Click to expand...
FedEx is the way to transport dive gear. I have done it a couple of times. I have some really nice Pelican cases that I can padlock and then ship. The cost is still far less than paying for the extra weight charges on the airlines.
 
murphey said:
I have a trip from Denver to Albuquerque in June. Right now, it's exactly the same price and the same time (door to door) to fly Southwest as to fly myself. And I have the added convenience of my luggage with me, a chocolate shake, no need to take off shoes, and I get to carry a weapon. (When you live and fly out west, a really good hunting knife is part of the essential emergency gear)

Plus my car is in the hangar, nice and safe. My schedule with no fees if I want to come home early or stay longer.

Pretty much anything under 750 miles is less convenient by commercial. I don't worry about the IFR issue - if it's hard IFR out here, it's very likely the commercials are on a hold anyway.
Click to expand...
But I did DEN-SFO this morning with no delays and my ticket was $219.40, round trip. I'm wondering who could touch that price in a small airplane, let alone the route. But I agree that you should not need to justify something that you enjoy.
 
Doggtyred said:
My one question I have is.. what sort of tickets are you comparing with the cost of spamcan do-it-yourself?

If we are talking about advance sale, non refundable tickets that you purchase weeks in advance, yea.. Delta/SWA/COA/NWA will prolly come in cheaper every time.

I ALWAYS compare the cost to a same day/next day ticket, because thats what the true utility of your own plane is all about.. leaving on YOUR schedule, not the airlines, having the freedom to leave a day, an hour, a week later, take a detour, stop someplace along the way.. etc..

Its been a while since I've spread my wings, economic downturn and all, but every time i compared same day airlines (coach/steerage) to spamcan, they came pretty close to even, if not favoring the spamcan.

Whats the cost difference if you were to leave TOMORROW? And is the difference worth the loss of personal freedom to you and the missus..
Click to expand...

Good points!
 
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