Hours vs Certifications

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LJS1993

Line Up and Wait
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LJ Savala
Hey guys as usual I'm trying to gather the most knowledge about flying and the process of learning so here I pose a question/observation. It seems to me like many of the newer pilots around here seem to be more involved with certifications instead of getting hours after they receive their PPL. Is this the normal growth process of becoming a solid pilot? For instance I have read on many occasions individuals celebrating a PPL then immediately going to tailwheel training. Would it not make a better pilot to instead garner hours with the certification you just earned instead of going into another certification process? Or am I placing the number of hours a pilot has within a specific rating with too much importance?
 
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I was going to get my tailwheel ENDORSEMENT to make me a better PPL. Unfortunately I realized that I had a sucky instructor. I'm interested in doing IFR just so I can do more trips and help my IFR husband. I thought about doing Multi but haven't found a good one yet. Just worked so hard at getting my PPL I don't want to lose the momentum of "training"
 
I started my instrument immediately after getting my ppl. It was one of the best decisions I have ever made. I figured I will pick up a new cert. every time I need to get a checkout LOL.
 
It depends on what you want to do with your pilot's license.

Like to travel? Take a couple longer weekend trips after you get your PPL, then get the instrument rating. Don't stop there - its worthless and can get you in trouble if you don't do some serious studying and reading + flying in weather.

As it was said earlier.. it helps to keep the 'momentum' of training going. During the first few hundred hours where you are learning like a sponge and developing habits.

I got my PPL in june of 2011, instrument rating in march '12 and I should get my tailwheel endorsement in the next few days. Already thinking about getting the commercial. Its like I can't help myself.
 
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I wanted to get my IR soon after getting my PPL as well, just because I feel like having more knowledge / experience in IMC would make me a safer pilot. I also want to take an aerobatics course for that same reason.

I don't know how long after I get my PPL I will pursue those goals, but there they are. Right now, I'm still focused on the PPL.
 
When I got my ticket, there were no endorsements for things like TW, and you needed 200 hours as well as the current 50 XC PIC to get your IR. The latter encouraged folks to fly more just advancing their existing skills. I'm not sure the current system is an improvement in that regard, but the FAA seems to think that encouraging people to chase the IR right after PP improves safety. I don't have enough data to say one way or the other with any certainty. One thing I do know is that people seem to fly less these days, mostly due to higher costs, and that seems to be a bad thing for safety.
 
Training = hours so they are not mutually exclusive. TW is an endorsement, no tests involved; just enough experience to be proficient, same with High Performance and Complex, it's just learning some extra stuff. When I learned there was a minimum time of 125hrs for an Instrument Rating but that was cut a few years later, now it's PP + 50xc and you can do 40 of those while doing your instrument training.

The reality is you should treat every flight as a training flight regardless how many hours you have, there is always something to keep up on and something else to learn, the process never ends. As far as certifications go, you get what you need for the flying you want to do. I know a guy with 5 or 6 jet type ratings on his PP/IR ticket. I asked him why he didn't get a commercial, his response "I own and fly them for personal use, I don't need one." Some people get them because they just want them.
 
Henning said:
The reality is you should treat every flight as a training flight regardless how many hours you have, there is always something to keep up on and something else to learn, the process never ends..
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A reason why I try and shoot 3 landings every flight, some regular, some short field, some keeping the gauges centered, some SFO, whatever it takes to keep sharp in case I need it when the fan in front stops again.

Working in some steep turns or other stick and rudder skills is also easy to do.

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
A reason why I try and shoot 3 landings every flight, some regular, some short field, some keeping the gauges centered, some SFO, whatever it takes to keep sharp in case I need it when the fan in front stops again.

Working in some steep turns or other stick and rudder skills is also easy to do.

Cheers
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Also why I zero thrust an engine every third landing or so, since I fly solo mostly it's no big deal to throw in some work in a flight, keeps it from getting boring as well. I tend not to do it with passengers though, between scaring them and potentially screwing it up and killing them, doesn't seem wise.;)
 
Those who remember the Magnificent Seven may remember when Chris is telling the Mexican town leaders about Britt ("the best there is with gun or knife") and how he thrives on the competition. "if he is the best," they asked, "with whom does he compete?" "Himself," Chris replied. And that is how you improve yourself as a pilot.
 
Henning said:
Also why I zero thrust an engine every third landing or so, since I fly solo mostly it's no big deal to throw in some work in a flight, keeps it from getting boring as well. I tend not to do it with passengers though, between scaring them and potentially screwing it up and killing them, doesn't seem wise.;)
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Agree since I am up there by myself most of the time. I try not to scare myself as well although it can get a little tense at times until the "field is assured". :rofl:

Cheers
 
I've wondered the same thing, one of the better moves I made back when I was working up to commercial was to wait untill the end to get my IFR done.

The best education, IMHO, is going on very long x-countries (over 1500mi), playing with weather more and more, landing on shorter and shorter strips, logging alot of late night flying, etc.

Hours and range > things on your license.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
The best education, IMHO, is going on very long x-countries (over 1500mi), playing with weather more and more, landing on shorter and shorter strips, logging alot of late night flying, etc.
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Amen!

I chose to pursue BOTH avenues of learning, using my newly earned privileges as well as going after more ratings. I got my Private ASEL at just a hair over 40 hours, but by the time I finished my Instrument rating, I had over 250 simply because I was both training AND getting out and flying trips in the real world. I had 6 or 7 hundred when I got my commercial (the multi followed a month later) and I'm due to tick over 1000 probably this coming weekend, so I may well have 1100 by the time my CFI is done.

Just make sure that you're getting real hours, and not doing the same thing over and over again. Go places. Fly different airplanes. Get dual from different CFI's. Try gliders, seaplanes, etc. Get some endorsements (I have high perf, complex, and tailwheel now too).

But, whatever you do, do it safely and try to do it often - I feel much better about how I fly when I'm flying at least 100 hours/year. Much less than that and I notice myself getting sloppy.
 
Congrats on closing in on the 1000 hour milestone, Kent. I'm closing in on 500.
 
Chasing down a buck and a quarter myself. IR is sometime spring/ summer 2013 , but in the interim I'm toying with the idea of flying a glider (don't tell her though) or tw. Have several types and tail#s in my logbook.
 
It's all flying, that's what counts. I was lucky and did some of my PPL in a tailwheel so I never actually needed to get an endorsement. I added a Glider rating. I did the step up to a complex and High Performance so I could rent an aircraft that reduced my travel time. My commercial and Instrument were next. I did all my instrument at night. I had 20 hours of actual before we were done. Then the CFI. It was all flying, it was all with different instructors, some really great CFI’s and some not so great. Sometimes I was a great student and sometimes I was not so great. But it was all flying.
 
I needed a flight review recently and did a seaplane rating since it counted. It cost maybe $400 more to do the seaplane rating rather than a simple flight review. I can't really say that it improved my flight skills for what I normally fly. It was a ton of fun, though.

Being out of the instruction environment has greatly improved what my flying dollars buy. Instructors are worth every penny, but once you are safe to learn on your own, I think you're far happier doing what you love about aviation.

The hard part about being a better pilot is that it is mostly within you and your discipline and decision making. Instructors can make a good model of that, and it's good to be exposed to multiple instructors to come up with your approach. No matter what equipment, skills or ratings you have, there are always marginal cases that could go either way.
 
Taking long trips really is great, I set off from Long Beach for Indiana in an Arrow with a wet PP, lost both NAV radios a couple hours in and learned just how helpful ATC can be as they vectored me the entire way to St Louis including through 2 fuel stops "keep your squawk and call us when airborne again", and all I asked for was a heads up if I was going to bust someone's airspace. Learned to deal with a lot of weather as well and how to deal with mountain currents. I learned to fly to travel and traveling really taught me how to fly.
 
My $0.02: Private followed shortly thereafter with the instrument ticket within a year or two (50-100 hours) is my recommendation. With those two accomplishments you are ready and enabled to begin the learning process. As many have said, planning for and flying long cross countries is much better than buzzing the same old pattern; 10 hours on a cross country trip is worth 100 hours in the local pattern (my opinion). With the IFR rating you will be better able to do so; just set your personal minimimums accordingly and don't get wrapped around the "technology"! Learn the basics of instruments, fly by the numbers and stay ahead of the airplane. Fancy new Ipad aps aren't going to keep the clean side up.

If you are not going to fly for a career Commercial and ATP don't add any additional capability. Getting those ratings can be educational and may save you a few bucks in insurance premiums but otherwise won't provide anywhere near the opportunity an IFR ticket provides.

Add complex, tailwheel and the rest when needed based on the airplane you are flying. I have my tailwheel but don't own a tail dragger (wish I did). Getting that rating was fun but otherwise useless for my normal flying. If I ever do have access to a tailwheel plane I'll have to repeat the training; you loose it if you don't use it.
 
Traveler0471 said:
It's all flying, that's what counts. I was lucky and did some of my PPL in a tailwheel so I never actually needed to get an endorsement. I added a Glider rating. I did the step up to a complex and High Performance so I could rent an aircraft that reduced my travel time. My commercial and Instrument were next. I did all my instrument at night. I had 20 hours of actual before we were done. Then the CFI. It was all flying, it was all with different instructors, some really great CFI’s and some not so great. Sometimes I was a great student and sometimes I was not so great. But it was all flying.
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The only way you would not need a TW endorsement was if your training was before the magic cutoff date in the FARs that talks about "PIC experience in a TW aircraft prior to April 15, 1991" Otherwise your instructor should have put the TW endorsement in your logbook if you were acting PIC in a TW aircraft. But that's not really getting at the original poster's question; just a note.

To the OP's question, I agree with many of the others in that you really want both. I started (slowly) working on my IR as soon as I got my PPL, as did my wife. Also got HP and later complex signoffs. But this was so I could support my habit of doing long XCs. Because of that, I'm somewhere around 700 hours right now, after about 10 years of flying. Note that this means I average 70 hours per year, less than the 100 hours that Kent recommends. And I agree with his recommendation! In the last 12 months I flew about 17 hours with instructors as I worked towards a Commercial, checked out a Bonanza, and did some approaches. Always training; always learning.

BTW, I noticed I and others had a lot of acronyms that may be unfamiliar to those starting out who may come across this thread:
TW = tailwheel
XC = cross country
IR = instrument rating
HP = high performance
OP = original poster
BTW = by the way
CFI = certified flight instructor
PPL = private pilot license (or, more properly, certificate)
FAR = code of federal regulations title 14, colloquially called the Federal Air Regulations
PIC = Pilot in Command. There are two subsets: acting and logging. Another topic for another day.
 
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gprellwitz said:
BTW, I noticed I and others had a lot of acronyms that may be unfamiliar to those starting out who may come across this thread:
TW = tailwheel
XC = cross country
IR = instrument rating
HP = high performance
OP = original poster
BTW = by the way
CFI = certified flight instructor
PPL = private pilot license (or, more properly, certificate)
FAR = code of federal regulations title 14, colloquially called the Federal Air Regulations
PIC = Pilot in Command. There are two subsets: acting and logging. Another topic for another day.
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Thank you!!! I wish people would do that more often for us noobz. :)
 
There's no such thing as ratings commensurate with hours; one can't equate the two. You're far better off being proficient than having a lot of qualifications, especially if you won't be using them.

If you get your multi rating, that's great, but how often will you rent a multi-engine airplane? If the answer is rarely, then you won't be able to stay proficient, and it's a lot of money spent for something you may not use.

No training is wasted. Getting a new category or class rating will always teach you more, increase your exposure, your background, and broaden your understanding. If it's something you want to do, then do it. If it's something you're doing in the hopes of using, then do it, but be realistic in your approach.

I met a young man a couple of days ago who just finished his multi engine rating. He has about two hundred fifty hours, perhaps a little more, and is a newly minted commercial pilot. He got the multi in the hopes someone will hire him to fly a multi engine airplane. That's not going to happen. He'd have been much better off getting his CFI; that gives him something he can use, and will give him a much better understanding of his craft than a few hours of multi would. For what he spent, he could have done the CFI and CFII.

If you're due for a flight review, go get a new rating, instead. Go do a glider add-on. Learn something new. Get the multi. Do something in a seaplane, or a conventional gear (tailwheel) airplane. Learn to fly a helicopter. Get a rating in a hot air balloon, or fly a gyroplane.

A lot of people make it to their private, fired up with the goal of getting to their private, and then go no further. They stop flying, their enthusiasm dampens, and they find it hard to commit money to to training if they no longer have a goal toward which they're working.

Give yourself a new goal.

Do get your instrument rating. Whether you fly instruments or not really doesn't matter. The training you receive and the application it has to your thought process in your daily flying is worthwhile.

Take time out to enjoy your flying too, without it always having to be training. It's allowed.
 
LJS1993 said:
Hey guys as usual I'm trying to gather the most knowledge about flying and the process of learning so here I pose a question/observation. It seems to me like many of the newer pilots around here seem to be more involved with certifications instead of getting hours after they receive their PPL. Is this the normal growth process of becoming a solid pilot? For instance I have read on many occasions individuals celebrating a PPL then immediately going to tailwheel training. Would it not make a better pilot to instead garner hours with the certification you just earned instead of going into another certification process? Or am I placing the number of hours a pilot has within a specific rating with too much importance?
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Get whatever ratings/endorsements/certificates you need to accomplish what you want to do in your flying. But don't let someone talk you into something just because of the, "that's the next step" common wisdom, which while common isn't wisdom IMO.
 
Henning said:
Taking long trips really is great, I set off from Long Beach for Indiana in an Arrow with a wet PP, lost both NAV radios a couple hours in and learned just how helpful ATC can be as they vectored me the entire way to St Louis including through 2 fuel stops "keep your squawk and call us when airborne again", and all I asked for was a heads up if I was going to bust someone's airspace. Learned to deal with a lot of weather as well and how to deal with mountain currents. I learned to fly to travel and traveling really taught me how to fly.
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So you're admitting you busted 91.205 (d) (2) for the two flights after the first fuel stop?
 
I got my PPL at 63 hours about 7 months ago and now have just under 90 so I guess I've flown roughly 25 hours of flying since getting my PPL. I'm trying to fly at least once a week to maintain currency. I don't have any intentions on getting my instrument rating because I don't plan on flying in bad weather. I get the argument that some will make saying that, " you never know.". While that's true, one thing I do know for sure is that I'm not going to fly if the weather is not good so even if I got the rating I'd probablty never use it so it seems not high on the list.

What I'm doing is taking some XC's to get experience and keeping current by practicing in the pattern. The next thing I may pursue is my complex endorsement/proficiency training.

I think there is a great deal to learn from flying on your own. I do think that it could be possible for some to use the instructor as a crutch rather than developing real decision making skills. It's very different when the person sitting next to you is not able to help at all.
 
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So you're admitting you busted 91.205 (d) (2) for the two flights after the first fuel stop?
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He doesn't appear to have made any such admission.

§ 91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.

d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.

(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.
 
DouglasBader said:
(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.[/I]
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How does no Nav at all meet the "navigation equipment suitable for the route flown" requirement if he goes NORDO?
 
denverpilot said:
So you're admitting you busted 91.205 (d) (2) for the two flights after the first fuel stop?
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??? It was clear and a million and I had a chart in my lap, how did I bust a damned thing? I don't need no stinking NAV radio to get my ass across the country, I already know where every highway and RR track leads.:confused: All I asked of them was if they saw me about to bust some airspace over something I missed to give me a shout. Vectoring me was their idea, but if they're offering it would be silly not to accept especially since they were vectoring me direct.
 
jspilot said:
I got my PPL at 63 hours about 7 months ago and now have just under 90 so I guess I've flown roughly 25 hours of flying since getting my PPL. I'm trying to fly at least once a week to maintain currency. I don't have any intentions on getting my instrument rating because I don't plan on flying in bad weather. I get the argument that some will make saying that, " you never know.". While that's true, one thing I do know for sure is that I'm not going to fly if the weather is not good so even if I got the rating I'd probablty never use it so it seems not high on the list.

What I'm doing is taking some XC's to get experience and keeping current by practicing in the pattern. The next thing I may pursue is my complex endorsement/proficiency training.

I think there is a great deal to learn from flying on your own. I do think that it could be possible for some to use the instructor as a crutch rather than developing real decision making skills. It's very different when the person sitting next to you is not able to help at all.
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One day (if you keep doing XCs) you will go on a trip, stay overnight and the next day's weather will push the envelope on your personal minimums. I know because it happened to me. I had to get myself and my family home from a weekend trip at a lower altitude than I would have liked (for passenger comfort planning reasons).

I made the flight and it was butter smooth, but it could have been an otherwise uncomfortable trip for them, which in turn would have been uncomfortable for me.

For me, that's a +1 on getting an IR. With it, I could have punched through the solid layer and gotten on top or flown through in complete visual obscuration.
 
Jaybird180 said:
One day (if you keep doing XCs) you will go on a trip, stay overnight and the next day's weather will push the envelope on your personal minimums. I know because it happened to me. I had to get myself and my family home from a weekend trip at a lower altitude than I would have liked (for passenger comfort planning reasons).

I made the flight and it was butter smooth, but it could have been an otherwise uncomfortable trip for them, which in turn would have been uncomfortable for me.

For me, that's a +1 on getting an IR. With it, I could have punched through the solid layer and gotten on top or flown through in complete visual obscuration.
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Agreed a million percent. Right now I don't have access to a plane for overnight trips so hence my thoughts right now. Somewhere down the line I could see it happening but not right now.
 
I had a rental overnight and had to delay departure due to IFR conditions at departure end. There was a communication problem at the FBO (dispatcher didn't document or relay my rental) and a simple delay turned into 'WTF is the plane?'
 
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