Hours needed before starting IFR training

[Scud_072]

Hey gang,

I am getting close to completing my PP and plan to go on to get my IFR rating as soon as possible. I have three questions:
1) Are there any requirements or regulations that say you have to have so many hours as a new PP before starting IFR training?
2) What about schools.. do they each set their own minimums before allowing a student to train?
3) What about common knowledge / best practice... better to get IFR training right away (if allowed) or better to get 20, 40, 60, 80 or ? hour before starting this training.

I am interested to becoming as capable and safe as fast as possible.

Looking ahead..... and thanks for any thoughts.

 

[MAKG1]

If you're getting close, you should be able to read 14 CFR 61 yourself and figure it out.

No, there are no regulations for minimum total time to start IFR training. Read the regs to figure out what time-related restrictions there are.

 

[tehmightypirate]

Well, I'm also just starting out and not anything close to an authority on the best way to approach IFR but this is how I see it:

For question 1:

To start your training there is no requirement for hours. However:

Part 61, section 65, part (d) Aeronautical Experience:

(1) 50 hours cross-country, 10 of which must be for your IFR rating.
(2) 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time.

The majority of these two can be accomplished during your IFR training, however keep in mind that only 15 hours of instrument instruction is required. The rest can be performed with a safety pilot. I'd basically make sure you have a decent amount of cross-country time and get the rest during your training.

For question 2: Short answer: yes. Some require you to have some or all of the cross-country out of the way. Some require you to also have passed the written exam. Either way I would read through a book (or three) or take a ground school course before diving into your IFR training. You'll get more out of it and retain knowledge a lot better.

For question 3: No reason to wait, start on it now if you're comfortable as a pilot. It can only make you a safer pilot. That said, if you're still feeling like you have a bit to learn on your own or aren't fully comfortable in the aircraft then I'd say wait and work on some non IFR items on your own.

 

[mcmanigle]

If you can (ie there aren't overriding time or money constraints) try to build at least a few of the cross-country hours as "fun flights" enjoying your new rating and maybe traveling a little with friends. Three reasons. First, depending on where you are, it might be nice to not have to fit every instrument training flight around a landing 50nm away.

Second, instrument training isn't "fun" the way VFR training is. Don't get me wrong, it's both interesting and useful and the sense of achievement is there. But not being able to look out the window, and the physical feel of the view limiting device and the fact that it's training for a point-A-to-point-B system rather than becoming intuitive with the plane makes it a lot less fun. Flying for fun once in a while will help you remember why you love it.

Third, there's something to be said for even a few extra hours of experience if it's doing things you didn't see much in your private training. Go to towered or untowered fields as appropriate. Get fuel at different airports. Fly locally on days with less than great visibility to see what all the fuss is about. Get used to looking at a new field's taxi diagram. Get familiar with your GPS system / autopilot / ForeFlight. Get vectored around inside a Bravo.

Probably reason #2 is the biggest, and certainly if you're pressed for time or money there's no reason you can't go right into it. But if you have the luxury of flying for fun once in a while and bringing friends along, do it.

 

[poadeleted20]

1) Are there any requirements or regulations that say you have to have so many hours as a new PP before starting IFR training?

No. However, my experience as an instrument instructor suggests that getting some experience going places VFR for 25-50 hours before starting IR flight training improves IR training efficiency.

2) What about schools.. do they each set their own minimums before allowing a student to train?

Sometimes, mostly the intensive training programs like PIC and GATTS, but that's mainly to be as sure as they can that you will be able to complete the program in the advertised number of days. For example, PIC wants you to have 45 of the required 50 hours of XC PIC time before starting its 10-day course, and GATTS wants you to have 10 hours of instrument training before starting their 7-day course.

3) What about common knowledge / best practice... better to get IFR training right away (if allowed) or better to get 20, 40, 60, 80 or ? hour before starting this training.

Depends on how you want to accomplish the program. If you're going to do it a lesson or two a week interspersed with time-building flying to meet the 50-hour XC PIC requirement, then it doesn't matter much. Or, if you're going the Part 141 route where you need 35 hours of instrument training all with an instructor but there is no XC PIC time requirement, you can start that right away, too. OTOH, if you're going to do a 7-10 day intensive course, getting most of that XC PIC time out of the way before starting the course is pretty much essential.

 

[AggieMike88]

If you can (ie there aren't overriding time or money constraints) try to build at least a few of the cross-country hours as "fun flights" enjoying your new rating and maybe traveling a little with friends. Three reasons. First, depending on where you are, it might be nice to not have to fit every instrument training flight around a landing 50nm away.

[...snip...]

Third, there's something to be said for even a few extra hours of experience if it's doing things you didn't see much in your private training. Go to towered or untowered fields as appropriate. Get fuel at different airports. Fly locally on days with less than great visibility to see what all the fuss is about. Get used to looking at a new field's taxi diagram. Get familiar with your GPS system / autopilot / ForeFlight. Get vectored around inside a Bravo.

Big agreement with the above. I took a chart and drew a 50nm circle centered on my home airport and proceeded to fly to many of the interesting airports outside of this circle. Luckily, a favorite is "Rocking M", T14, owned by one of our PoA members, WaltM, was just at 51nm. So every visit, breakfast, and fly-in counted.

And the Hard8 is 77nm, so all those $100 ribs and brisket counted as XC

I've also taken up doing Pilots-n-Paws missions. Nearly everyone of these is at least an hour away and some excellent opportunities to plan and execute some longer distance flying. Especially helpful in planning how to operate in an airport I've never been to before.

All of this has provided lots of opportunity to improve piloting skills, using the GPS (CNX80), autopilot, doing pre-flight planning, and more. And especially made me feel more comfortable and confident in the airplane I fly.

 

[LDJones]

Big agreement with the above. I took a chart and drew a 50nm circle centered on my home airport and proceeded to fly to many of the interesting airports outside of this circle. Luckily, a favorite is "Rocking M", T14, owned by one of our PoA members, WaltM, was just at 51nm. So every visit, breakfast, and fly-in counted.

And the Hard8 is 77nm, so all those $100 ribs and brisket counted as XC

I've also taken up doing Pilots-n-Paws missions. Nearly everyone of these is at least an hour away and some excellent opportunities to plan and execute some longer distance flying. Especially helpful in planning how to operate in an airport I've never been to before.

All of this has provided lots of opportunity to improve piloting skills, using the GPS (CNX80), autopilot, doing pre-flight planning, and more. And especially made me feel more comfortable and confident in the airplane I fly.

Whenever you go flying, pick someplace 51 nm or further away to go do a touch & go. The more the merrier.

 

[poadeleted20]

Whenever you go flying, pick someplace 51 nm or further away to go do a touch & go.

...or even stop for lunch. The whole land/stop/shut down/rebrief/refile/start/depart cycle is good experience, too.

 

[asgcpa]

Big agreement with the above. I took a chart and drew a 50nm circle centered on my home airport and proceeded to fly to many of the interesting airports outside of this circle. Luckily, a favorite is "Rocking M", T14, owned by one of our PoA members, WaltM, was just at 51nm. So every visit, breakfast, and fly-in counted.

And the Hard8 is 77nm, so all those $100 ribs and brisket counted as XC

I've also taken up doing Pilots-n-Paws missions. Nearly everyone of these is at least an hour away and some excellent opportunities to plan and execute some longer distance flying. Especially helpful in planning how to operate in an airport I've never been to before.

All of this has provided lots of opportunity to improve piloting skills, using the GPS (CNX80), autopilot, doing pre-flight planning, and more. And especially made me feel more comfortable and confident in the airplane I fly.

Great way to do it.

 

[tehmightypirate]

...or even stop for lunch. The whole land/stop/shut down/rebrief/refile/start/depart cycle is good experience, too.

Great point. Many things change when you have a few hours of not flying and then have to go flying again. In addition to having to get your head back in the flying mindset there are other challenges as well. Having to suddenly care not only what the weather was during preflight but also what the weather would be on the way back after 3 or 4 hours (or more) was probably one of the biggest things I found different between pre-private and post private flying.

 

[Scud_072]

Guys... thank you so very much... I learned so much in such a short time...

1) Fly 50NM away
2) Land, fuel, lunch, file - great plan
3) Get 40 hour of XC in this way

I am the sort of guy who would want to / will go to a seven day IFR course somewhere and focus. So I will check out good ones and their minimum requirements.

I remember when I was younger and wanted to train with the real bike racers. I showed up asking if I could ride with them. The coach said, "how many miles have your ridden?" I said "300!" proudly. He said "go ride 2000 and come back, then you can train with us." I showed up two months later and showed him my odometer. He said "ok.. you can train with us."

You guys say go do 40 XC hours first.. it shall be done.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[AggieMike88]

When you're ready for info on the PIC immersive course, call 1-800-IFlyIFR and talk to Donn H. He does a great job explaining how their system works.

 

[jordane93]

I'd also recommend getting flight following on every trip, so you get used to talking with ATC.

 

[tehmightypirate]

I'd also recommend getting flight following on every trip, so you get used to talking with ATC.

THIS! As much as you can, tailor your VFR flights to learn IFR techniques. Learn how IFR charts work and practice tracking airways using VORs rather than fly direct. Make all your turns standard rate. Fly some long, straight in approaches (traffic permitting). Get a safety pilot and try your hand at flying a bit under the hood/foggles. Practice identifying navigation fixes. Practice writing down ATC clearances for taxi, takeoff, etc.

Talk to ATC, land at class C airports as much as possible. If you're feeling adventurous (and have read up a lot on IFR) ask for a practice (VFR) ILS approach. Take an IFR rated pilot with you and have him file IFR and run the radios for you, maybe even get some actual time (yes, you can get actual IFR time without having an IFR rating as long as the legal PIC in the plane is rated appropriately).

There are so many little challenges and tricks you can learn during those 40 hours of XC that will give you a HUGE head-start when you go for your IFR.

 

[FredFenster]

2) What about schools.. do they each set their own minimums before allowing a student to train?

You got money? Yes? Welcome to your first instrument flight lesson!

I wasn't planning on doing instrument training until after I had more time but there is an instrument ground school being held locally in a few weeks so I signed up for it. I can do the book work now when its cold and crappy outside and hopefully get the written test out of the way and then figure the rest out this summer.

 

[Scud_072]

THIS! As much as you can, tailor your VFR flights to learn IFR techniques. Learn how IFR charts work and practice tracking airways using VORs rather than fly direct. Make all your turns standard rate. Fly some long, straight in approaches (traffic permitting). Get a safety pilot and try your hand at flying a bit under the hood/foggles. Practice identifying navigation fixes. Practice writing down ATC clearances for taxi, takeoff, etc.

Talk to ATC, land at class C airports as much as possible. If you're feeling adventurous (and have read up a lot on IFR) ask for a practice (VFR) ILS approach. Take an IFR rated pilot with you and have him file IFR and run the radios for you, maybe even get some actual time (yes, you can get actual IFR time without having an IFR rating as long as the legal PIC in the plane is rated appropriately).

There are so many little challenges and tricks you can learn during those 40 hours of XC that will give you a HUGE head-start when you go for your IFR.

This is so very helpful... thank you so very much.

 

[poadeleted20]

THIS! As much as you can, tailor your VFR flights to learn IFR techniques. Learn how IFR charts work and practice tracking airways using VORs rather than fly direct. Make all your turns standard rate. Fly some long, straight in approaches (traffic permitting). Get a safety pilot and try your hand at flying a bit under the hood/foggles. Practice identifying navigation fixes. Practice writing down ATC clearances for taxi, takeoff, etc.

Talk to ATC, land at class C airports as much as possible. If you're feeling adventurous (and have read up a lot on IFR) ask for a practice (VFR) ILS approach. Take an IFR rated pilot with you and have him file IFR and run the radios for you, maybe even get some actual time (yes, you can get actual IFR time without having an IFR rating as long as the legal PIC in the plane is rated appropriately).

I'd be very careful with this.

First, this essentially is teaching yourself instrument flying, and as an instrument instructor, I've found IR training is often extended by the time it takes to unteach the bad habits and procedures people have taught themselves this way -- you're butting heads with the Laws of Primacy and Exercise.

Also, trying to fly IFR with a IFR PIC-legal "safety" pilot in the right seat may be legal, but the record suggests it may not be particularly safe. The average pilot has little or no experience flying "cross-cockpit," and may not be very good at telling when you are starting to "lose the bubble", and no training at all in deciding when it's time to intervene and how to take control from the right seat safely -- i.e., all those things they taught us in instrument instructor training. There have been fatal accidents involving a non-IR PP in the left seat and an instrument-rated PP in the right seat trying to do this.

Go ahead and get flight following to practice talking with ATC and things like that, but don't try to practice IFR procedures you haven't yet learned properly.

 

[Scud_072]

I'd be very careful with this.

First, this essentially is teaching yourself instrument flying, and as an instrument instructor, I've found IR training is often extended by the time it takes to unteach the bad habits and procedures people have taught themselves this way -- you're butting heads with the Laws of Primacy and Exercise.

Also, trying to fly IFR with a IFR PIC-legal "safety" pilot in the right seat may be legal, but the record suggests it may not be particularly safe. The average pilot has little or no experience flying "cross-cockpit," and may not be very good at telling when you are starting to "lose the bubble", and no training at all in deciding when it's time to intervene and how to take control from the right seat safely -- i.e., all those things they taught us in instrument instructor training. There have been fatal accidents involving a non-IR PP in the left seat and an instrument-rated PP in the right seat trying to do this.

Go ahead and get flight following to practice talking with ATC and things like that, but don't try to practice IFR procedures you haven't yet learned properly.

Thanks Capt'n Ron... sage advice for sure which I will heed.

 

[tehmightypirate]

I'd be very careful with this.

First, this essentially is teaching yourself instrument flying, and as an instrument instructor, I've found IR training is often extended by the time it takes to unteach the bad habits and procedures people have taught themselves this way -- you're butting heads with the Laws of Primacy and Exercise.

Also, trying to fly IFR with a IFR PIC-legal "safety" pilot in the right seat may be legal, but the record suggests it may not be particularly safe. The average pilot has little or no experience flying "cross-cockpit," and may not be very good at telling when you are starting to "lose the bubble", and no training at all in deciding when it's time to intervene and how to take control from the right seat safely -- i.e., all those things they taught us in instrument instructor training. There have been fatal accidents involving a non-IR PP in the left seat and an instrument-rated PP in the right seat trying to do this.

Go ahead and get flight following to practice talking with ATC and things like that, but don't try to practice IFR procedures you haven't yet learned properly.

Quite right, I was being too brief. I will agree entirely with Ron that you should learn stuff with an instructor and then practice it on your own. You CAN practice stuff prior to going up with an instructor but I would only do it if you're 100% confident in your skills and you have a solid self-teaching strategy to learning. So, yes, take any and all advice I previously posted but remember not to exceed your own limits. As Ron said, while you can get a great headstart on training you can also learn bad habits. So, practice what you want but make sure what you're practicing isn't something you may have to unlearn down the road.

Ron, your suggestion about problems IFR flying in the right seat is a good point that I hadn't considered. For me personally it works out that both me and my safety pilot feel comfortable filing IFR and me flying it but I totally understand that this is probably not the more common situation. I should also have mentioned that I would assume one would do this on a clear or high ceiling IFR day of course. Anything truly requiring an IFR rating should be best left for those with the actual ratings.

 

[Henning]

Hey gang,

I am getting close to completing my PP and plan to go on to get my IFR rating as soon as possible. I have three questions:
1) Are there any requirements or regulations that say you have to have so many hours as a new PP before starting IFR training?
2) What about schools.. do they each set their own minimums before allowing a student to train?
3) What about common knowledge / best practice... better to get IFR training right away (if allowed) or better to get 20, 40, 60, 80 or ? hour before starting this training.

I am interested to becoming as capable and safe as fast as possible.

Looking ahead..... and thanks for any thoughts.

Not anymore, get 10-15 hrs of cross country, I would suggest you do a real cross country or two, ones where you fly 8 hrs a day, those are the ones where you really learn how to trim the plane so it flies itself, that's where you want to be when you start your instrument training. The rest of the 50hrs of cross country time you can do during your 40hrs of IR training. Find a really good brutal CFII and do all 40 with them. IR is no time to be pampered or scrimp on training, this is where you burn it in.

 

[jordane93]

Not anymore, get 10-15 hrs of cross country, I would suggest you do a real cross country or two, ones where you fly 8 hrs a day, those are the ones where you really learn how to trim the plane so it flies itself, that's where you want to be when you start your instrument training. The rest of the 50hrs of cross country time you can do during your 40hrs of IR training. Find a really good brutal CFII and do all 40 with them. IR is no time to be pampered or scrimp on training, this is where you burn it in.

I actually think one learns more in a short/shorter XC than an 8 hr XC. When your flying straight and level for 7 hours, you don't really learn much other than to keep the plane trimmed out and follow the magenta line or go from VOR to VOR. When you do short hops, you'll really learn to manage your time better IMO. Doing these 50 mile rides really puts you to work when your straight and level for 10 minutes then start getting vectored and descended in for the approach, while trying to brief the approach, while trying to load the approach into your GPS. the short trips really make you work

 

[Immelman]

Not anymore, get 10-15 hrs of cross country, I would suggest you do a real cross country or two, ones where you fly 8 hrs a day, those are the ones where you really learn how to trim the plane so it flies itself, that's where you want to be when you start your instrument training.

What Henning said, plus: During your travels, make it a point to transit several terminal areas (class B/C). Go in and out of the main airport of a couple, out of an outlying GA airport a couple times. The theme here is getting comfortable with how ATC will work you.

 

[Henning]

I actually think one learns more in a short/shorter XC than an 8 hr XC. When your flying straight and level for 7 hours, you don't really learn much other than to keep the plane trimmed out and follow the magenta line or go from VOR to VOR. When you do short hops, you'll really learn to manage your time better IMO. Doing these 50 mile rides really puts you to work when your straight and level for 10 minutes then start getting vectored and descended in for the approach, while trying to brief the approach, while trying to load the approach into your GPS. the short trips really make you work

That's the point, to focus on those exact tasks. The rest is in your IR training.

 

[poadeleted20]

I actually think one learns more in a short/shorter XC than an 8 hr XC. When your flying straight and level for 7 hours, you don't really learn much other than to keep the plane trimmed out and follow the magenta line or go from VOR to VOR. When you do short hops, you'll really learn to manage your time better IMO. Doing these 50 mile rides really puts you to work when your straight and level for 10 minutes then start getting vectored and descended in for the approach, while trying to brief the approach, while trying to load the approach into your GPS. the short trips really make you work

I agree completely. However, doing an all-day trip of several legs where you take off, fly 30 minutes or so in cruise, descend land, taxi back, and start over again on each leg can be very productive.

 

[Blackhawk]

I'd be very careful with this.

First, this essentially is teaching yourself instrument flying, and as an instrument instructor, I've found IR training is often extended by the time it takes to unteach the bad habits and procedures people have taught themselves this way -- you're butting heads with the Laws of Primacy and Exercise.

Also, trying to fly IFR with a IFR PIC-legal "safety" pilot in the right seat may be legal, but the record suggests it may not be particularly safe. The average pilot has little or no experience flying "cross-cockpit," and may not be very good at telling when you are starting to "lose the bubble", and no training at all in deciding when it's time to intervene and how to take control from the right seat safely -- i.e., all those things they taught us in instrument instructor training. There have been fatal accidents involving a non-IR PP in the left seat and an instrument-rated PP in the right seat trying to do this.

Go ahead and get flight following to practice talking with ATC and things like that, but don't try to practice IFR procedures you haven't yet learned properly.

What Ron wrote. It is very frustrating, both for the student and the instructor to unteach poor BI. The other side of this is when you talk to a potential CFII about instruction ask how much time they spend on BI. BI is like the fundamentals of a sport. Football players don't love doing hours of tackling and blocking drills. Golfers don't love the hours they spend on a driving range with a golf pro. But if you don't do these things well you won't do them well when you are tired. If the BI is not drilled, drilled and then drilled some more until it is second nature the rest of the instrument flying will be tough. I think every instrument student I have inherited who has had issues finishing up it came back to BI. When I would ask questions about their training they almost always say they started concentrating on approaches day 1, 2 or 3. We would then have to go back to BI and spend several days really learning BI before we could advance again to approaches.
Henning has some good ideas on cross country flying. Get use to busy airspace, talking to ATC, dealing with a towered airport.
In the airplane, learn your systems. If there is an autopilot, learn how to use it. Same with the GPS- learn how to load a flight plan. Learn what every page does in the GPS.
Learn to fly your airplane with precision and know the "numbers". Don't just land the airplane on the runway, land it on a precise spot every time. Be able to fly the approach speeds in your POH. I had one instrument student show up, lesson 1 he landed a Cessna 172, zero flaps 90 knots. We used 8500' and he said that was his normal landing. We spent the next lesson working on landings.
Be precise in all your flying. If you are using 7500' for your cross country, then fly 7500'. Not 7600', not 7550', 7500'. If the pattern altitude is 1700', then fly it at 1700'. Every time.
By the "numbers", know your pitch/power for different situations. How much pitch for a Vy climb? Vx climb? What is the pitch/power for a 500'/min descent, flaps 10, 85 knots? What is the 90 knot clean cruise power setting? If you understand these concepts VFR it makes it that much easier to teach you BI.

 

[Scud_072]

Wow... such great advice. Thank you all so much. I will be flying out of Santa Paula, so what I see is I need to do several trips south of LAX to say Orange County and back.. and possibly stopping at different airports in the LA basin. That will really give me a work out.. and do some longer trips east or north. I am so looking forward to all of this. Thanks again!