HOTME acronym?

[Melissa2983298]

I'm still really confused on what the HOTME acronym for a holding pattern means? Especially the O in the acronym; does that mean that heading/radial is the outbound leg heading?

 

[Sac Arrow]

I'm still really confused on what the HOTME acronym for a holding pattern means? Especially the O in the acronym; does that mean that heading/radial is the outbound leg heading?

Okay, you posted that at 10:15 PDT, I Googled at 10:31 PDT and all it returned was your post (damn those bots are fast.)

You sure you're not just looking at an intersection on the chart under your Holding Calculator?

 

[Melissa2983298]

Okay, you posted that at 10:15 PDT, I Googled at 10:31 PDT and all it returned was your post (damn those bots are fast.)

You sure you're not just looking at an intersection on the chart under your Holding Calculator?

Haha! well thank you for trying! My instructor actually told me the acronym for when a controller tells you to maintain a holding pattern; I know the h is where they want you to hold, the O I'm not too sure, the m is the altitude they want you to maintain and the E is expected time; when you can expect to be cleared in for the approach?

 

[CJones]

Hmmm.. Haven't heard of this one... Maybe it's something like an acronym for reading back a holding pattern clearance? It's been a while since I got a holding pattern clearance from ATC, but maybe something like:

Hold north of the VOR
On The 010 radial
Maintain 5,000'
Expect clearance at 2256Z.

Like I said - never heard of this acronym before.. Just throwing spitwads at the wall at this point.

 

[Melissa2983298]

Hmmm.. Haven't heard of this one... Maybe it's something like an acronym for reading back a holding pattern clearance? It's been a while since I got a holding pattern clearance from ATC, but maybe something like:

Hold north of the VOR
On The 010 radial
Maintain 5,000'
Expect clearance at 2256Z.

Like I said - never heard of this acronym before.. Just throwing spitwads at the wall at this point.

That sounds about right! Thank you! This had always kind of confused me, if a controller says hold a 240 heading, does that mean the outbound leg should be a 240 heading?

 

[bobmrg]

That sounds about right! Thank you! This had always kind of confused me, if a controller says hold a 240 heading, does that mean the outbound leg should be a 240 heading?

Holding instructions are given in a format that hasn't changed in the last 40 years that I can recall, and although I have never heard of this acronym before, it makes sense. Makes better sense if you use Outbound for the O.

AIM 5-3-8(h) is what you are looking for.

After naming the holding fix, the controller will say North, Northeast, East, Southeast, etc...that's the general direction in which to turn when you arrive over the fix, and you should do that without overthinking it. There are eight slices of the pie based on cardinal directions: "North" means that 45 degree slice from 337.5 to 022.5; "Northeast" means from 022.5 to 45 degrees, etc.

Then s/he will give the radial, bearing, etc on which to hold...you have ten miles (in most cases) in which to intercept that radial, etc. Heading will not be stated. If it is a five-mile hold, that will be stated...or if it is a DME hold, that will also be stated). For direction of turn when your one-minute (or whatever, depends on wind...just stay within the distance limit)... is up, turn left if it is a standard right-hand pattern and right if it is a non-standard left-hand pattern; fly back to the fix and begin the pattern.

I have some dandy illustrations in THE COMPLETE ADVANCED PILOT.

bOB gARDNER

 

[Sac Arrow]

It's a new one on me. Just push the "hold" button on the FMS and tap on the published in the PFD screen.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

ANOTHER mnemonic that I will have no chance of remembering.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I can't even pronounce "mnemonic" let alone spell it without autocorrect.

 

[poadeleted20]

Hmmm.. Haven't heard of this one... Maybe it's something like an acronym for reading back a holding pattern clearance? It's been a while since I got a holding pattern clearance from ATC, but maybe something like:

Hold north of the VOR
On The 010 radial
Maintain 5,000'
Expect clearance at 2256Z.

Like I said - never heard of this acronym before.. Just throwing spitwads at the wall at this point.

Altitude is not part of a standard full holding clearance, which contains seven items:

The word "hold"
Cardinal direction
Fix name
Radial, bearing, course, or airway
Direction of turn (standard right if omitted)
Leg length (standard if omitted - 1 minute up to 14000 MSL, 1-1/2 above)
Expect further clearance time.

Example: Hold west of Salisbury VOR on the 280 radial, right turns, five mile legs, expect further clearance at 1505 Zulu.

If you can fit that with HOTME, let me know. However, since that is all the controller's problem to get right when issuing the clearance, I wouldn't worry about it too much. All you need do is copy what s/he says and then ask for clarification if you don't think you have all the information you need.

 

[Velocity173]

Altitude is not part of a standard full holding clearance, which contains seven items:

The word "hold"
Cardinal direction
Fix name
Radial, bearing, course, or airway
Direction of turn (standard left if omitted)
Leg length (standard if omitted - 1 minute up to 14000 MSL, 1-1/2 above)
Expect further clearance time.

Example: Hold west of Salisbury VOR on the 280 radial, right turns, five mile legs, expect further clearance at 1505 Zulu.

If you can fit that with HOTME, let me know. However, since that is all the controller's problem to get right when issuing the clearance, I wouldn't worry about it too much. All you need do is copy what s/he says and then ask for clarification if you don't think you have all the information you need.

Standard left turns? Unless they've changed the AIM, standard used to be right turns and ATC is required to inform the pilot if left turns are to be made.

 

[poadeleted20]

Standard left turns? Unless they've changed the AIM, standard used to be right turns and ATC is required to inform the pilot if left turns are to be made.

DOH! Yeah, for IFR it's "I Fly Right".

 

[tmyers]

HOTME? They were referring to the guy flying the Arrow on the left!!!!!

If you believe that I have a bridge I would like to sell you.

 

[AggieMike88]

since that is all the controller's problem to get right when issuing the clearance, I wouldn't worry about it too much. All you need do is copy what s/he says and then ask for clarification if you don't think you have all the information you need.

I remember that slam dunk hold we got near Corpus Christi. Not expecting it and we had what, 3 - 4 nm to get it figured out?

 

[Velocity173]

DOH! Yeah, for IFR it's "I Fly Right".

Ok. Figured it was just a brain fart. Haven't been into instruments in a while and wanted to make sure things haven't changed.

 

[poadeleted20]

I remember that slam dunk hold we got near Corpus Christi. Not expecting it and we had what, 3 - 4 nm to get it figured out?

I don't remember a hold involved, but IIRC, the book requires controllers to issue any unpublished holds at least three minutes or 7 miles before the hold.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ok. Figured it was just a brain fart. Haven't been into instruments in a while and wanted to make sure things haven't changed.

Nah, just typing faster than I was thinking.

 

[AggieMike88]

I don't remember a hold involved, but IIRC, the book requires controllers to issue any unpublished holds at least three minutes or 7 miles before the hold.

I think we were headed toward KCRP for some ILS practice. And it was a definitely a hold since I remember scrambling to get all the details written down and execute... and it probably was just 3-4 minutes to get to POGOE...

I remember the comment you made that it would have been a similar scramble for you to comply. I was happy to have you along as my coach for that... It would have been a big challenge to comply with the instruction if I was by myself.

 

[asechrest]

I'm not sure, but the answer probably involves tomatoes and flames.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think we were headed toward KCRP for some ILS practice. And it was a definitely a hold since I remember scrambling to get all the details written down and execute... and it probably was just 3-4 minutes to get to POGOE...

I remember the comment you made that it would have been a similar scramble for you to comply. I was happy to have you along as my coach for that... It would have been a big challenge to comply with the instruction if I was by myself.

Well, now you see why the FAA has that limit on how far out the controller is supposed to give you that instruction.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm not sure, but the answer probably involves tomatoes and flames.

 

[frfly172]

IFR ,I follow roads,worked out just fine on the ALCAN highway.

 

[dans2992]

I don't remember a hold involved, but IIRC, the book requires controllers to issue any unpublished holds at least three minutes or 7 miles before the hold.

Which "book" is that?

 

[warthog1984]

Altitude is not part of a standard full holding clearance, which contains seven items:

The word "hold"
Cardinal direction
Fix name
Radial, bearing, course, or airway
Direction of turn (standard right if omitted)
Leg length (standard if omitted - 1 minute up to 14000 MSL, 1-1/2 above)
Expect further clearance time.

Example: Hold west of Salisbury VOR on the 280 radial, right turns, five mile legs, expect further clearance at 1505 Zulu.

If you can fit that with HOTME, let me know. However, since that is all the controller's problem to get right when issuing the clearance, I wouldn't worry about it too much. All you need do is copy what s/he says and then ask for clarification if you don't think you have all the information you need.

Hold West
Of Salisbury VOR, on
The 280 Radial
Make Right Turns
Expect Further Clearance 1505z

Guessing here...

 

[poadeleted20]

Which "book" is that?

FAA Order 7110.65. And I was wrong -- it's five minutes, not three.

4.​

​

​

When delay is expected, issue items in​

subparas a and b at least 5 minutes before the aircraft​

is estimated to reach the clearance limit. If the traffic​

situation requires holding an aircraft that is less than​

5 minutes from the holding fix, issue these items​

immediately.
​

 

[dans2992]

FAA Order 7110.65. And I was wrong -- it's five minutes, not three.

Ok, thanks! It appears that ATC has an out though - (I.e. - if less than 5 minutes, issue these items immediately)?

So, if they give a pilot a non-published hold 2 minutes out, and the pilot screws up the entry, who will get "dinged" for it?

 

[poadeleted20]

So, if they give a pilot a non-published hold 2 minutes out, and the pilot screws up the entry, who will get "dinged" for it?

Don't let a controller make his/her problem your problem, too. If it's too complicated to work out in less than two minutes, and that's all the notice the controller gives you, it's time for an "unable".

However, unless it's some sort of weird unpublished intersection hold, two minutes should be enough. And even if you do get slam-dunked into a hold, there's always the EdFred Emergency Hold Entry -- upon crossing the fix, turn shortest direction to the outbound heading, twist the CDI to the inbound course, time one minute, and then turn toward the holding course based on CDI needle position (e.g., for a westbound holding course, if the needle is to the north side of the CDI, turn north initially) until you intercept. Unless you're up near the holding speed limit and it's a really bad wind day, that will keep you in the protected airspace (especially in the planes most of us here are flying).

 

[Velocity173]

Holding entry is a recommendation. If you screw it up outside of the AIM's guidance, ATC isn't going to care. If you've been given a non published hold 2 minutes out they're probably too busy to monitor your entry anyway. They care about containment in the hold. As long as you don't bust aircraft, obstruction or airspace sep, they'll be fine.

 

[poadeleted20]

Holding entry is a recommendation. If you screw it up outside of the AIM's guidance, ATC isn't going to care. If you've been given a non published hold 2 minutes out they're probably too busy to monitor your entry anyway. They care about containment in the hold. As long as you don't bust aircraft, obstruction or airspace sep, they'll be fine.

Exactly. But the AIM-recommended entries guarantee you'll stay in the airspace. Anything else? You're on your own to make sure you stay inside. As I said, at 120 knots, you're not likely to bust out unless you do something really bizarre. Of course, if you fly something where you have to slow to meet the maximum holding speed for your altitude, you need to be careful. However, most folks flying anything that fast have either enough experience to work it out correctly and quickly in their head and/or another pilot to work it out while you fly the plane.