Hot Start Issue

[bstratt]

Recently our 1975 Arrow II has experienced problems starting when hot - prop turns slowly once then stops - almost like there's no juice in the battery. Keep working the switch (with pauses in between) for maybe 5 minutes and suddenly it spins up and starts. It starts quickly and easily when cold.

One of my partners pulled the battery, fully charged it and cleaned the terminals and connections thinking this will solve the issue. I wonder if its the solenoid or starter given the propensity to act up when hot.

Any ideas?

 

[gismo]

Recently our 1975 Arrow II has experienced problems starting when hot - prop turns slowly once then stops - almost like there's no juice in the battery. Keep working the switch (with pauses in between) for maybe 5 minutes and suddenly it spins up and starts. It starts quickly and easily when cold.

One of my partners pulled the battery, fully charged it and cleaned the terminals and connections thinking this will solve the issue. I wonder if its the solenoid or starter given the propensity to act up when hot.

Any ideas?

My guess would be a brush problem in the starter. This is very easy to diagnose, just hook a voltmeter to the positive terminal on the starter and the engine (ground). If you see something like 80%-100% of the battery voltage when trying to start (with the prop "stopped"), then your problem is very likely in the starter. If the voltage is lower thatn that then check at the battery terminals while trying (unsuccessfully) to crank it. If it's a lot higher at the battery, you have a loose connection, bad master solenoid, or bad starter solenoid.

I assume that the engine itself isn't bound up (hydro lock?) and can be pulled through by hand when it won't crank. Have you checked that (carefully)?

 

[Maverick]

Recently our 1975 Arrow II has experienced problems starting when hot - prop turns slowly once then stops - almost like there's no juice in the battery. Keep working the switch (with pauses in between) for maybe 5 minutes and suddenly it spins up and starts. It starts quickly and easily when cold.

One of my partners pulled the battery, fully charged it and cleaned the terminals and connections thinking this will solve the issue. I wonder if its the solenoid or starter given the propensity to act up when hot.

Any ideas?

I've had the same problem with my Cardinal, IO360. My battery was 6 or 7 years old and I replaced it with a new Concorde battery with extra cranking power. I'm not certain that has completely solved the problem. My plane is in for annual right now and I am having them check all the cabling very thoroughly to make sure there are no resistive connections.

I was stranded at Lake Lawn resort in Wisconsin one Sunday when I flew over there for a brunch with friends. In fact I think I met you there. The airplane just would not start, when the ignition key was turned the prop would move about an 8th of a turn and stop. We tried jump starting the plane but all that did was weld the starter solenoid in the engaged position. I spent the night and had a mechanic replace the solenoid the next day. We had to jump start the airplane and I had the battery replace when I got home.

The thing to remember is that if the starter is not turning it effectively looks like a dead short to DC current. I assume that helped cause the failure of the starter solenoid and the draining of the battery.

I had a car once that had a bad starter that behaved in the same manor when hot. The starter in my plane is fairly new, I had it replace about three years ago so I hope the problem is not in my starter.

I don't know where your battery is located but mine is in the avionics bay behind the baggage compartment. That's a long run for the battery cables and that's why I'm having those checked out.

Good Luck!

Jeannie

 

[SCCutler]

Many Pipers had the aluminum battery cables in place to save weight; they did that, but at a cost of being poorer carriers of the high current draw required for starting the engine. Has your Arrow got aluminum or copper?

I know that the problem you describem regardless of whether the cables are copper or aluminum, is frequently the starter's way of saying, "farewell," as it draws increasingly amperage and turns less. Jean's experience may be instructive, and I'd get this dealt with before you(1) get stranded, or (2) have greater damage.

"Welded contacts" on the solenoid: makes me cringe, as I think: Fire Hazard!

 

[Maverick]

"Welded contacts" on the solenoid: makes me cringe, as I think: Fire Hazard!

Me too and when that happened we were all done for the day. On a positive note, being stuck there meant I had the pleasure of spending more time with a good friend.

Jeannie

 

[Henning]

Recently our 1975 Arrow II has experienced problems starting when hot - prop turns slowly once then stops - almost like there's no juice in the battery. Keep working the switch (with pauses in between) for maybe 5 minutes and suddenly it spins up and starts. It starts quickly and easily when cold.

One of my partners pulled the battery, fully charged it and cleaned the terminals and connections thinking this will solve the issue. I wonder if its the solenoid or starter given the propensity to act up when hot.

Any ideas?

Yeah, you have too much resistance being exacerbated by the heat which increases the resistance. The bad news is probably, it's the starter motor, the good news is maybe not. First off, how do you know the battery was fully charged, did you put a hydrometer to all the cells? That's really the only good test. The battery may be getting sulfated cells and not accepting or putting out full juice, you can also check all your connections and lugs for corrosion, but be prepared for a starter.

 

[Henning]

I've had the same problem with my Cardinal, IO360. My battery was 6 or 7 years old and I replaced it with a new Concorde battery with extra cranking power. I'm not certain that has completely solved the problem. My plane is in for annual right now and I am having them check all the cabling very thoroughly to make sure there are no resistive connections.

I was stranded at Lake Lawn resort in Wisconsin one Sunday when I flew over there for a brunch with friends. In fact I think I met you there. The airplane just would not start, when the ignition key was turned the prop would move about an 8th of a turn and stop.

You need to have your mags, points and timing checked and set.

 

[Maverick]

You need to have your mags, points and timing checked and set.

What do my mags, points and timing have to do with this. The starting problem went away after the new battery was put in. The engine runs fine and starts immediately when cold. Like most other fuel injected Lycoming engines it can be a little finicky when hot but the problem was either battery, starter, resistive cable connection or some combination of those. In my opinion the only really reliable way to check a starter is to remove it and have it bench tested under load by someone who knows how to properly test it.

Since my battery was 6 or 7 years old I opted to start there since it was due anyway. The airplane is in for annual now and checking the starter cables is high on the list of things to do. They will also check the things you suggested but I doubt that has anything to do with it.

Jeannie

 

[gibbons]

Does the Arrow II have aluminum battery cables? If so, the need for a fresh battery can't be over stated. I change the battery every two years - at most. Every year on the Extra.

Also, be sure to check the simple things - spark plug gap in my case.

 

[gismo]

Many Pipers had the aluminum battery cables in place to save weight; they did that, but at a cost of being poorer carriers of the high current draw required for starting the engine. Has your Arrow got aluminum or copper?

I know that the problem you describem regardless of whether the cables are copper or aluminum, is frequently the starter's way of saying, "farewell," as it draws increasingly amperage and turns less. Jean's experience may be instructive, and I'd get this dealt with before you(1) get stranded, or (2) have greater damage.

"Welded contacts" on the solenoid: makes me cringe, as I think: Fire Hazard!

Actually, aluminum wires can carry the same current with no more voltage drop than copper, they just have to be the next larger gauge. The real problem with aluminum wire in aircraft is that vibration will work harden the metal which eventually leads to lots of tiny fractures in the wire and higher resistance. IOW new aluminum cables of the right size will work fine initially, but as they age their performance degrades.

 

[gismo]

What do my mags, points and timing have to do with this. The starting problem went away after the new battery was put in. The engine runs fine and starts immediately when cold. Like most other fuel injected Lycoming engines it can be a little finicky when hot but the problem was either battery, starter, resistive cable connection or some combination of those. In my opinion the only really reliable way to check a starter is to remove it and have it bench tested under load by someone who knows how to properly test it.

Since my battery was 6 or 7 years old I opted to start there since it was due anyway. The airplane is in for annual now and checking the starter cables is high on the list of things to do. They will also check the things you suggested but I doubt that has anything to do with it.

Jeannie

WRT the mags, if they have impulse couplers and one fails, the result is a weak but very advanced spark during starting. That can cause a cylinder to fire early enough to stop the starter or even damage it. Without impulse couplers you would have an extra (retard) set of points and a vibrator (shower of sparks) to get the same retarded spark for starting. It's possible that the retard points could get grossly misstimed, but I think that's unlikely.

BTW 6-7 years is usually too old for an aircraft battery. Many people seem to think the only time a battery needs replacing is when it can no longer hold enough charge to start the plane but your battery serves another more important purpose. It's the only backup you have to the alternator or generator. If that fails and you have a 6 year old worn out battery, you might have as little as 5-10 minutes after the failure to use the radios, and chances are you won't be able to extend the landing gear or flaps electrically either. In fact a common scenario with an old battery and an alternator failure is for the radios to go dead as soon as you attempt to lower the gear (which also doesn't extend). Technically your mechanic is supposed to verify that your battery still has 80% of it's rated capacity at each annual inspection, but few mechanics do this.

 

[wsuffa]

Technically your mechanic is supposed to verify that your battery still has 80% of it's rated capacity at each annual inspection, but few mechanics do this.

If they don't, you should ask! It's not that tough to do (and with the right load tester, you can probably do it yourself).

6-7 years is normally pretty long. But if it gets regular use, full charge each use (e.g. at least an hour), or you use a desulphator (pulse device), you can get 5+ years out of it. Harsh environmental conditions excepted.

The only way to know is to load test.

 

[bstratt]

Thanks guys - I'll check the easy stuff (aluminum wires and age of the battery) tomorrow at the hangar. If it still acts up I think we'll have to get the starter and solenoid checked.

I have to talk to my partner tomorrow though as he said it jump started fine when it wouldn't turn over for him which made him think it was the battery. I'm not sure if that's just coincidence or not because if he waited 10 - 15 minutes to get the jump start going it might have cooled enough.

Doing a LifeLine flight on Sunday and don't want any problems.

 

[Maverick]

Thanks guys - I'll check the easy stuff (aluminum wires and age of the battery) tomorrow at the hangar. If it still acts up I think we'll have to get the starter and solenoid checked.

I have to talk to my partner tomorrow though as he said it jump started fine when it wouldn't turn over for him which made him think it was the battery. I'm not sure if that's just coincidence or not because if he waited 10 - 15 minutes to get the jump start going it might have cooled enough.

Doing a LifeLine flight on Sunday and don't want any problems.

In my case, that time at Lake Lawn, the jump start didn't help and that's what made me suspect the starter. If I have any further problems I may look into one of those light weight starters. That may also help move my CG a little further aft and help compensate for the added weight of the three blade prop.

Jeannie

 

[sere]

I changed my starter our 6 years ago to a lightweight and it was like night and day differance between the two. Needless to say I love it. Hope to see you soon Mav.

sere

 

[Maverick]

I changed my starter our 6 years ago to a lightweight and it was like night and day difference between the two. Needless to say I love it. Hope to see you soon Mav.

sere

I'm looking forward to Mio in October.

I've heard some say that the light weight starters don't last as long as the originals do. Something about higher current draw and spinning faster as I recall. Any thoughts on that?

Jeannie

 

[wsuffa]

I've heard some say that the light weight starters don't last as long as the originals do. Something about higher current draw and spinning faster as I recall. Any thoughts on that?

Jeannie

Jeannie,

All I have to say to that is "no Bendix".

Really. I had nothing but trouble with the bendix. Skytech has been reliable so far.

 

[Maverick]

Jeannie,

All I have to say to that is "no Bendix".

Really. I had nothing but trouble with the bendix. Skytech has been reliable so far.

I had my starter replaced a few years ago because the bendix was sticking and I almost got stuck at Grand Canyon airport during my Arizona trip. I had someone at Prescott airport work on it and he thought he had it fixed. But, when I got home it happened again so I had my local guy work on it. He removed it and replaced it with a rebuilt and now I may have a different problem with it. The Skytech light weight may just be next.

Thanks for the feedback.

Jeannie

 

[Tom-D]

Technically your mechanic is supposed to verify that your battery still has 80% of it's rated capacity at each annual inspection, but few mechanics do this.
__________________
-lance

Where did you find that requirement?

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Where did you find that requirement?


the continued airworthiness instructions of the manufacturer of at least two popular brands. When owners install batteries, what usually happens to the paperwork explaining this? "The Paper File"

 

[Tom-D]

Where did you find that requirement?


the continued airworthiness instructions of the manufacturer of at least two popular brands. When owners install batteries, what usually happens to the paperwork explaining this? "The Paper File"

99% of the stuff in a battery shipping container is advertizing, I usually throw it away too.

But I will look at the new battery I have for the F-24. ICAs on a battery? what's next?