Honeycomb Alpha vs. CH Products Eclipse Yoke

[Crashnburn]

OK, there are those who say no flight simming before PPL lessons. I've had lessons, and flight simming has helped me with them.

I've used the CH Products Eclipse yoke for many years. The main thing that bothered me was the shaft sticking, especially close to neutral. It main trimming for level flight a continuous process.

I just had a chance to use the Honeycomb Alpha yoke I got for Christmas. It doesn't have any friction, especially near neutral, but the elevator force is considerably stronger. I don't remember any plane I've flown that required that much force. One good thing, though, is it will get me in the habit of trimming the pressure off in every phase of flight.

The Alpha has a much better mounting system than the CH. The CH had two clamps that slid under the desk, and I had to run a screw through each clamp to keep the yoke from coming loose during the flare.

The Alpha has a plate that sits on the desk, and a couple of heavy duty clamps attach to it, and clamp from the underside. Or, there is a sticky pad if the desk is too thick for the clamps. The yoke attaches to the plate, and there are two screws in back that run down to keep the yoke from sliding forward.

You have to install drivers for the Alpha, the CH drivers were included in Win 7. Also, you have to connect an Ethernet cable from the yoke to the switch panel to get any switch functionality.

The CH came with Throttle, Mixture, and Propeller levers; instead, the Alpha has a switch panel, but no gear lever. My Saitek switch box has more functionality than the switch panel.

I had to add a throttle quadrant, so I used the Saitek quadrant I already had. The Alpha doesn't seem as wide as the CH, so the Saitek/Alpha content didn't consume an excessive amount of desk space. I still have room for a mouse pad and mouse

The Alpha's center shaft movement is the same as a plane's whereas, the CH's movement is less. Also, the CH aileron response seems to be proportional to the yoke movement, whereas the Alpha gives minimal response for small movements, and the farther you move the yoke, the bigger the aileron response becomes.

Finally, it's about 5 minutes to set up the CH, where the Alpha seems to need 10 - 15 minutes, as you have to set up the base, the clamps, and the yoke, then also setup the throttle quadrant.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

The cheaper one.

 

[snglecoil]

I have had a CH Yoke for many, many moons...I think I got it back in the late 90s. Although I don't sim as much as I used to, I still enjoy it especially to help keep the sharp on IFR procedures. I went ahead and picked up a Honeycomb Yoke a couple of months ago. I agree that the pitch axis is a little stiff, though not excessively. It is way better than the slop of a CH or Logitech yoke. Thumbs up from me.

 

[Jim K]

Count me in the camp that's disappointed with the CH yoke. I just don't play with the sim enough to spend any more money on stuff, though. I'm hoping MSFS 2020 will change that, though.

 

[murphey]

The CH shaft is plastic-type where the Honeycomb is aluminum. Definitely more rugged. I never really liked the CH but it’s ok. I use it so rarely that I can’t justify the expense of the honeycomb.

 

[Crashnburn]

I have had a CH Yoke for many, many moons...I think I got it back in the late 90s. Although I don't sim as much as I used to, I still enjoy it especially to help keep the sharp on IFR procedures. I went ahead and picked up a Honeycomb Yoke a couple of months ago. I agree that the pitch axis is a little stiff, though not excessively. It is way better than the slop of a CH or Logitech yoke. Thumbs up from me.

Thanks for the feedback. I guess using the Alpha will be better practice than the CH. I knew about the plastic shaft vs. the metal shaft, and that was the main reason to get the Alpha.

 

[Will Kumley]

The thing I hate with the CH yoke is it seems like I can never trim the Cessna with the basic 6 pack in Xplane 11. I started using the Cessna with the glass panel in it and trimming was much easier, but I'm trying to simulate my current plane I fly in usually which uses the standard 6 pack. I'm not really using the sim to practice maneuvers as that doesn't work well with the lack of feel, but I'm trying to use it to practice longer flights that require pilotage and such and having to constantly fight the altimeter is problematic to the point I usually just give up.

 

[Crashnburn]

I miss the CH throttle quadrant. My Saitek quadrant works but is big, the clamps extend way below the desk, and full throttle is not max RPM and min throttle is not idle. I’m replacing the clamp with Velcro and I can use the Function keys to get max RPM and idle. At least until I get a better quadrant.

I don’t know if it’s the yoke or flight model but the plane banks left when the yoke is neutral. Same amount regardless of speed.

 

[Crashnburn]

I checked with a different plane. Same left bank. Next test is to glide.

 

[redtail]

I miss the CH throttle quadrant. My Saitek quadrant works but is big, the clamps extend way below the desk, and full throttle is not max RPM and min throttle is not idle. I’m replacing the clamp with Velcro and I can use the Function keys to get max RPM and idle. At least until I get a better quadrant.

I don’t know if it’s the yoke or flight model but the plane banks left when the yoke is neutral. Same amount regardless of speed.

Try re-calibrating your yoke and throttle (rudder pedals and trim wheel, if you have them).

Your throttle quadrant may be showing signs of old/worn pots (potentiometer). After calibrating it in X-plane, try setting a response curve. That might solve your idle/max throttle issue. There's an excellent YouTube video by Q8pilot that explains how to do this. It's called... How to configure response curves (X-Plane 11.30).
I was having issues with my trim wheel (Desktop Aviator) being too sensitive. Setting a response curve has worked wonders! I'm still fine tuning it, but it is so much better now. Last year, I splurged and bought a YOKO yoke and TQ6+ throttle quadrant and I'm very impressed with them! Expensive but incredible feel, response and overall pleasure to use.

Edit: I just realized that you didn't specify which flightsim you're using. However, you should be able to set a response curve in FSX/P3D natively, or by using fsuipc by Pete Dowson.

Another trick I use when questioning hardware vs flight model, is to disconnect suspect hardware and do a quick test flight (using keyboard/mouse/autopilot). Start in the air if possible and see if the plane behaves the same (i.e. left bank). I've found that many of my hardware issues were solved once I calibrated them within the running sim.

I checked with a different plane. Same left bank. Next test is to glide.

Definitely sounds like a hardware issue. See above.
Also, try another device such as a joystick (a cheap one will do) and see if the problem goes away.

Another very important thing to check....
Make sure that you don't have multiple axes assignments for your yoke/joystick and rudder inputs (pitch, bank, yaw). That can really screw things up and throw any flight model out a whack.

Ask me how I know

 

[woodchucker]

I miss the CH throttle quadrant. My Saitek quadrant works but is big, the clamps extend way below the desk, and full throttle is not max RPM and min throttle is not idle. I’m replacing the clamp with Velcro and I can use the Function keys to get max RPM and idle. At least until I get a better quadrant.

I don’t know if it’s the yoke or flight model but the plane banks left when the yoke is neutral. Same amount regardless of speed.

Im using XP11 and have the same issue with that. Just set one of your toggle buttons to left/right trim. Not ideal but works well enough.

My main issue is the default 172 with round gauges doesn’t fly as expected. Full power going 80 kts or less and max throttle not giving max rpm. It’s so strange. I use the same controller profile for a Tiger and it has no problems.

I’ll check out that info about setting response curves. I’ve fiddled with them to no avail.

 

[Jim_CAK]

I am also one that ditched the CH yoke after 15+ years for the Alpha. I like it much better. As the others noted - the pitch axis is a little stiff. I would like to see a mechanical pitch adjustment that adjusts the spring pressure so you could trim off the pressure while holding the pitch in a particular position like the real airplane. The best you can do is leave the yoke in the neutral pitch position and use trim to change the airplane attitude. Another thing I learned many years ago is to learn to uses altitude hold so the simulator autopilot trims the plane to a neutral position then turn the autopilot off and hand fly it.

 

[redtail]

I am also one that ditched the CH yoke after 15+ years for the Alpha. I like it much better. As the others noted - the pitch axis is a little stiff. I would like to see a mechanical pitch adjustment that adjusts the spring pressure so you could trim off the pressure while holding the pitch in a particular position like the real airplane. The best you can do is leave the yoke in the neutral pitch position and use trim to change the airplane attitude. Another thing I learned many years ago is to learn to uses altitude hold so the simulator autopilot trims the plane to a neutral position then turn the autopilot off and hand fly it.

Which sorta defeats the purpose of using a yoke in the first place. That's whats so great about the YOKO. It has very smooth motion in pitch and roll axis and uses a system of bungee cords that increases tension the more you pull/turn.

I agree with your idea of having a more realistic mechanical trim system. That would be great. So far, nothing we have is perfect, but out of all the yokes I've tried, I am able to hand-fly and hold pitch/bank attitudes much better with the YOKO, but trimming (via yoke switch or trim wheel) is always harder than the real thing.

 

[Deelee]

Had the CH Eclipse. Could never trim it out flying xplane c172. Also it never went more than 45 degrees either bank direction (yoke, not aircraft bank). Always felt plastic-y and I could never get precise enough inputs using it to even come close to making it feel real.

Got the Honeycomb last week. Night and day. Pitch forward and aft is a bit stiff like others mentioned, but it feels more like the real 172 when you push far forward or pull back... it gets stiffer in the real AC. Rotates 90 degrees left/right just like the real yoke. this allows for MUCH more precise control inputs especially landing or simulating attitude instrument flying trying to hold heading w/o the use of autopilot. The ball bearings really make this thing smooth like the real thing. Landings are waaaaay more realistic - you put minor control inputs in and you get responses. Much more like the real deal.

Long story short - No comparison. Spend the $249 and get the Honeycomb.

 

[Crashnburn]

Try re-calibrating your yoke and throttle (rudder pedals and trim wheel, if you have them).

Your throttle quadrant may be showing signs of old/worn pots (potentiometer). After calibrating it in X-plane, try setting a response curve. That might solve your idle/max throttle issue. There's an excellent YouTube video by Q8pilot that explains how to do this. It's called... How to configure response curves (X-Plane 11.30).
I was having issues with my trim wheel (Desktop Aviator) being too sensitive. Setting a response curve has worked wonders! I'm still fine tuning it, but it is so much better now. Last year, I splurged and bought a YOKO yoke and TQ6+ throttle quadrant and I'm very impressed with them! Expensive but incredible feel, response and overall pleasure to use.

Edit: I just realized that you didn't specify which flightsim you're using. However, you should be able to set a response curve in FSX/P3D natively, or by using fsuipc by Pete Dowson.

Another trick I use when questioning hardware vs flight model, is to disconnect suspect hardware and do a quick test flight (using keyboard/mouse/autopilot). Start in the air if possible and see if the plane behaves the same (i.e. left bank). I've found that many of my hardware issues were solved once I calibrated them within the running sim.

Definitely sounds like a hardware issue. See above.
Also, try another device such as a joystick (a cheap one will do) and see if the problem goes away.

Another very important thing to check....
Make sure that you don't have multiple axes assignments for your yoke/joystick and rudder inputs (pitch, bank, yaw). That can really screw things up and throw any flight model out a whack.

Ask me how I know

I'm using FSX:SE. The throttle quadrant has barely been used. Never had the left bank problem with the CU Home. Except for the throttle quadrant, nothing else has changed.

 

[redtail]

I'm using FSX:WE. The throttle quadrant has barely been used. Never had the left bank problem with the CU Home. Except for the throttle quadrant, nothing else has changed.

FSX:WE?
Since the W key is directly above the S key, I'm going to assume this is a typo and what you meant was... FSX:SE (steam edition)

The fact that the throttle quadrant has barely been used doesn't mean it is in perfect condition. Think of an old radio volume control that displays static/spiking when you try adjusting the volume, yet the thing may have been sitting in a box or closet for years. Try calibrating your throttle in Windows game controller screen and choose "display raw data" or something like that (it's been awhile since I've had to do this). You should be able to see if it is working normally or spiking. https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/103910-calibrate-game-controller-windows-10-a.html

This is one of the disadvantages of devices that use potentiometers (most joysticks, yokes, rudder pedals, trim wheels, etc). They will eventually spike. Years ago, I had a GoFlight throttle (TQ6) and eventually a few pots started acting up. I contacted the company and they sent me replacement pots at no charge, so I replaced them and that solved it. I eventually sold it on ebay in good working order.

The more expensive devices use Hall Effect transducers. They work via a magnetic field instead of variable resistor, eliminating spiking issues and last much longer.

What's the "CU Home" ?

 

[Crashnburn]

CU Home should have been CH Yoke. I tried gliding hands off and the plane banks left, so not a propeller slipstream issue. Also, flying with auto pilot didn’t help.

 

[Crashnburn]

More progress. I found a web page that will show me how to calibrate the ailerons in FSUIPC, but went to the FSX:SE calibration page first.

For the yoke, I calibrated it, set the null zone to zero, and the sensitivity to max for ailerons, rudder, and elevator. That helped a lot, but there is still a slight left bank tendency. (Maybe the yoke is Parisian?) Looks like I'll have to visit my FSUIPC, and maybe register it.

I did about the same thing for the throttle quadrant. That solved the max RPM problem. I haven't tried the idle power position, yet.

 

[woodchucker]

More progress. I found a web page that will show me how to calibrate the ailerons in FSUIPC, but went to the FSX:SE calibration page first.

For the yoke, I calibrated it, set the null zone to zero, and the sensitivity to max for ailerons, rudder, and elevator. That helped a lot, but there is still a slight left bank tendency. (Maybe the yoke is Parisian?) Looks like I'll have to visit my FSUIPC, and maybe register it.

I did about the same thing for the throttle quadrant. That solved the max RPM problem. I haven't tried the idle power position, yet.

Use bank trim. Easy peasy. Calibration isn’t necessarily perfect. I also have the yoke sensitivity dialed way back. Just adjust settings and controls as best as possible. I always felt MSFX was much better. Looking forward to the reboot.

 

[redtail]

Use bank trim. Easy peasy. Calibration isn’t necessarily perfect. I also have the yoke sensitivity dialed way back. Just adjust settings and controls as best as possible. I always felt MSFX was much better. Looking forward to the reboot.

I wanted to suggest that as well (aileron trim), but it seemed like too simple of a solution and for some reason, I'm always looking for the difficult, most complicated problems/solutions

 

[Crashnburn]

I guess I can try, but I don't like using software to compensate for a hardware problem.

 

[woodchucker]

I wanted to suggest that as well (aileron trim), but it seemed like too simple of a solution and for some reason, I'm always looking for the difficult, most complicated problems/solutions

Due to time/weather/money my private dragged out for two years. I used the sim (MSFX) a lot to keep my flying thoughts current. I audio recorded nearly every lesson and played them back while reflying in MSFX. One of the first things I did was adjust fuel and weights to match exactly what the real 172 was doing. Really helped procedurally. I don’t remember needing aileron trim in MSFX but xplane is a mess. Use all the tools! And for the sim haters it really is possible to use them for the better. Not a replacement of course but if you can’t fly in real it’s better than nothing if used for the appropriate reasons.

 

[redtail]

Due to time/weather/money my private dragged out for two years. I used the sim (MSFX) a lot to keep my flying thoughts current. I audio recorded nearly every lesson and played them back while reflying in MSFX. One of the first things I did was adjust fuel and weights to match exactly what the real 172 was doing. Really helped procedurally. I don’t remember needing aileron trim in MSFX but xplane is a mess. Use all the tools! And for the sim haters it really is possible to use them for the better. Not a replacement of course but if you can’t fly in real it’s better than nothing if used for the appropriate reasons.

Flight-Simmer for over 35 years, licensed private pilot for 20.

If it weren't for MSFS, I probably would have never pursued my dream to become a pilot. Nor would I have had the edge that I had when attended ground school and took my first flight lessons. Yes, I had a few bad habits to unlearn, but overall, I was way ahead of the other students in my ground school class. Was also far ahead of them in the cockpit, because I didn't have to be taught the basics of every single instrument (thanks to MSFS). I just had to be taught to look outside and scan for traffic, lol. Well actually needed to be taught a whole lot more that you don't get sitting at a desktop sim....the roundout/flare, how to land, etc. but you get the idea.

On another note....I disagree that X-plane is a mess. It just takes more tinkering with settings, sensitivity settings and response curves to get good results, but personally, I feel like XP (especially payware planes) "feels" closer to the real thing.

 

[Crashnburn]

Well, I tried aileron trim, both from the yoke; after I set up the trim; and the keyboard. There was no affect at all. I added these results to my ticket.

 

[woodchucker]

That’s odd. Aileron trim works fine for me. Usually takes a few clicks, then once it goes the opposite direction one click back

 

[redtail]

That’s odd. Aileron trim works fine for me. Usually takes a few clicks, then once it goes the opposite direction one click back

Very odd indeed. Sounds like something is conflicting with his axes and/or button-keyboard assignments. I've had that problem a few times in MSFS/FSX. X-plane is coded differently and will now alert you of a conflict.

Well, I tried aileron trim, both from the yoke; after I set up the trim; and the keyboard. There was no affect at all. I added these results to my ticket.

It's been awhile since I've used FSX, but if I remember correctly, what you should do at this point is, remove ALL Joystick/Yoke button assignments and axes assignments and start from scratch. You basically want to "zero out" everything so that the yoke has no input. This can be a tedious and time consuming process, but it's worth it if you're having these kind of issues. After you do that, reassign the pitch and roll axes first, making sure to calibrate and test each. Then start assigning the buttons...pitch trim, aileron trim, gear, flaps, etc.

Another thing that helps when troubleshooting these issues is having a second copy of the sim (preferably on another PC) to test the device with. If a second PC isn't available, then another copy of the sim on the same machine, which requires a large hard drive or a second hard drive.
I have a desktop PC (with multiple drives HDD and SSD) that I built exclusively for my various flightsims, as well as a gaming laptop which allows me to test any piece of hardware that I'm having issues with.

 

[Crashnburn]

Thanks. I definitely have a conflict. It showed up whim I installed the Alpha drivers. Something starts running when I turn on the taxi lights.

Funny thing, neither keyboard nor button aileron trim has any effect.

Honeycomb inadvertently helped me find a work a round. I reduced the fuel in the left tank 1.5 gallons less than the right tank and the left bank is pretty much gone. I started with 5 gallons less, then started a binary search for the correct amount. This is for the Liberty-XL I’m flying most of the time. Need check the C-172, too.

Edit: After more fine-tuning it’s down to about 1.3 gallons difference.

On a side note, it seems Piper Cubs have the same issue, so it’s not a matter of simulating a pilot on the left side of the plane.