Holy Crap! What the *@&%Q Was That?!!

FlySince9

FlySince9

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Went flying yesterday... First time since before the Holidays... I usually don't have such a long gap between, but hey, sometimes you don't get to do what you'd rather...
Anyway, got my ASOS info. Wind was reported almost 90 degree cross at 7. I noticed that aircraft were taxiing to either runway 2 or 20 depending on the slight swing of the windsock. When I was ready I checked the sock and saw it slightly favoring runway 2, so I announced my intentions and headed that way. As I finished Runup I heard someone say they were taxiing to the other runway, and when questioned by a third aircraft, he said he was aware that there was another aircraft (me) at the other end. I finished up my pretakeoff checklist started moving toward the hold line... As I glanced at the Sock it was now slightly favoring the other Runway, but mostly from my left and fully inflated. So I'm thinking "um, wait a second, it'll swing again, and so it did... Pulled out on the runway, Ailerons turned into the crosswind, full power and off I went... Liftoff was straight and true but as I climbed out of ground effect the airplane banked hard to the right. I countered with left yoke input but kept rolling right. More left aileron... still rolling right. Now at about 30 degrees, despite full left ailerons! I was out of ideas quickly. The airplane finally stopped its roll tendency and just hung in that 30 degree bank for what seemed like a long time then finally straightened up. The rest of the climb was normal, as I thought outloud, "what the &%$# was that?"

I've never had an airplane say "screw you, I'm going this way, and you're just gonna have to go for the ride!" SCARED THE CRAP OUT OF ME!
 
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If you did not already do this...Let your speed build 5-10 kts more than normal before lifting off and during climb out. Your ailerons will be more effective. High wings are worse than low wings. Good experience. How was landing?
 
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Landing was a normal, bumpy cross wind approach but touched down straight and on the upwind wheel... Whew!
 
You're telling us you put in full aileron, but you didn't mention putting in any rudder...
 
Dr. O said:
Mini microburst.
Coulda been worse.
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Microbursts come from convective activity. Don't know exactly what kind of weather he had but this time of year it's doubtful that it was a microburst.
 
I was rocking and rolling below a couple hundred feet or so yesterday too. The wind off the lake hitting the tree line makes for a lot of swirling air (konz, Grosse Ile MI)
 
I've had similar experiences in Half Moon Bay on a windy day.

Onshore "breeze" (frequently 15+ knots) hits a 3500 foot mountain and goes all to hell.

Once, at 500 AGL, I got a strong roll moment like what was described here. I could have sworn it was a wake turbulence encounter, but there was no one else around.

Perfect clear air. There was definitely an onshore loop going on -- you could easily see that the wind at TPA was in the opposite direction as on the ground. That's not at all rare, but the nasty roll isn't so common.
 
FlySince9 said:
Pulled out on the runway, Ailerons turned into the crosswind, full power and off I went... Liftoff was straight and true but as I climbed out of ground effect the airplane banked hard to the right. I countered with left yoke input but kept rolling right. More left aileron... still rolling right. Now at about 30 degrees, despite full left ailerons!
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This is very scary when it happens. On some airplanes an energetic stomp on left rudder would help more than cranking ailerons, because at high AoA they get less effective... But at that moment you become crabbing, so you probably don't want runway recontact thereafter. Still better than digging wingtip, I think. Although, on second thought, Nate once posted a series of pictures of a guy landing a Grumman at Centennial, who got in a situation where ailerons became insufficiently effective, and scrapped wingtip because he didn't stomp the rudder right away (perhaps was concerned for centerline on landing). It didn't cartwheel him and only costed him money presumably.
 
I think you mean cross-controlled. Crabbing is a good thing with a crosswind.

But it isn't cross controlled either. You hit rudder and aileron on the same side.

You seem to be trying to track straight. Unless there is a parallel runway with a tandem takeoff in progress right now in that direction, F that. Get the airplane upright by any means. If it turns you into a place where someone has to deal with it, so be it.

Remember this is a takeoff. The aircraft is already climbing. It's not like a go-around from the flare where you might touch down before you can get the flaps up.
 
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Beginning with Henning's comment and then reading others, I think what I may have lacked was a hard stomp on the rudder. I've never felt a need for aggressive rudder except spin recovery. Even then, in a Cessna, it's more neutral rudder than it is full opposite rudder... I guess that's a pitfall of not having a tail-wheel endorsement. The airplane was already, almost instantly, in a crab. The roll was the big surprise. But next time, if this happens again, I'll be more likely to include an aggressive rudder along with ailerons....

thanks for all your comments...
 
Glad it all worked out.

I wonder what the pilot at the other end of the runway was thinking about your takeoff.
 
Scott@KTYR said:
Glad it all worked out.

I wonder what the pilot at the other end of the runway was thinking about your takeoff.
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Who cares? In an emergency, it doesn't matter what other people think. Above all else, fly the plane.

FlySince9 lived and didn't bend any metal. He did fine, even if he looked bad to someone else.
 
MAKG – By no means did I intend to imply ADOY worry about what other think in an emergency situation. ADOY reported everything worked out and I was just thinking what was going through the other pilots mind as he sat there watching this unfold. Thats all.


MAKG1 said:
Who cares? In an emergency, it doesn't matter what other people think. Above all else, fly the plane.

FlySince9 lived and didn't bend any metal. He did fine, even if he looked bad to someone else.
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FlySince9 said:
Beginning with Henning's comment and then reading others, I think what I may have lacked was a hard stomp on the rudder. I've never felt a need for aggressive rudder except spin recovery. Even then, in a Cessna, it's more neutral rudder than it is full opposite rudder... I guess that's a pitfall of not having a tail-wheel endorsement. The airplane was already, almost instantly, in a crab. The roll was the big surprise. But next time, if this happens again, I'll be more likely to include an aggressive rudder along with ailerons....

thanks for all your comments...
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You should have learned it in slow flight practice.
 
Busflyer said:
Microbursts come from convective activity. Don't know exactly what kind of weather he had but this time of year it's doubtful that it was a microburst.
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I wouldn't expect a microburst without a thunderstorm, but thermals can happen at any time of year. The best flying day I ever had on my hang glider was in February, there was strong lift in many locations.
 
Henning said:
You should have learned it in slow flight practice.
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I think that the rudder is particularly important in slower aircraft. I remember that in the Schweitzer 2-33, that if you expected an actual turn you needed both stick and rudder. Stick only would just get you uncoordinated flight.
 
Great thread. I'm a big proponent of delaying the liftoff. I don't wanna be the proud owner of an airplane that's a wallowing, high alpha, mushy aileroned and just generally struggling. Unless terrain dictates otherwise, I generally go for something only a bit slower than a cruise climb. In the event of an engine failure, you'll be lower, but the energy state won't be all that different when you factor in the speed. There's also the added benefit that you won't have to work as hard to establish and maintain best glide.

This is a great reminder about rudder control, thanks again for posting.
 
Henning said:
You should have learned it in slow flight practice.
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Shouda couda wouda. Slow flight never worked for me. I only started using rudder because of visibility problem in high wing planes.
 
The airport I trained at would get this exact phenomenon very often. Were surrounded by small mountains, but would only get this happening over a river gully we pass over. (the gully may just be a coincidence as that is where I would be 3-500 ft AGL).

Just about 3-500 ft AGL, a hard roll that you can only counter until it lets you go. I'm glad I have experienced that. I can only image becoming a pilot and never knowing, then one day having it happen.
 
JasonM said:
The airport I trained at would get this exact phenomenon very often. Were surrounded by small mountains, but would only get this happening over a river gully we pass over. (the gully may just be a coincidence as that is where I would be 3-500 ft AGL).

Just about 3-500 ft AGL, a hard roll that you can only counter until it lets you go. I'm glad I have experienced that. I can only image becoming a pilot and never knowing, then one day having it happen.
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That sounds like mechanical rotor coming off of the mountains. When it occurs should depend on wind direction and strength. That it occurred over a river gully would most likely be coincidence. most likely it was the mountains that caused it.
 
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