Holding Not Required note

[luvflyin]

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1802/00251ILD14.PDF

Note says "Holding not required for arrivals at SAMIE via V448 southeast bound." There is a Holding Pattern at SAMIE on the Enroute Chart. So it looks like instead of the usual "Procedure NA for arrivals on the AAA VORTAC airway radials ### CW ###" notes you see on a lot of Approaches, which would probably be around 050 CW 230 or so, they've dropped that and used this instead because of that Charted Holding pattern on the Enroute Chart. First time I've seen this. Has anyone seen other Approach Charts that have this?

 

[BigBadLou]

I wonder if they did that for space saving. The charted procedure already uses a lot of vertical space. Adding a feeder from V448 would probably require them to scale down the graphic and lose detail.
Just a guess here. I did not stay at Holiday Inn last night. (whatever that means )

 

[aterpster]

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1802/00251ILD14.PDF

Note says "Holding not required for arrivals at SAMIE via V448 southeast bound." There is a Holding Pattern at SAMIE on the Enroute Chart. So it looks like instead of the usual "Procedure NA for arrivals on the AAA VORTAC airway radials ### CW ###" notes you see on a lot of Approaches, which would probably be around 050 CW 230 or so, they've dropped that and used this instead because of that Charted Holding pattern on the Enroute Chart. First time I've seen this. Has anyone seen other Approach Charts that have this?

It's an arrival holding pattern and cannot be used without a specific ATC clearance. Most places that have arrival holding have them on the approach chart. Note the arrival hold at MOLLY:

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1802/00869r30.pdf#nameddest=(LRU)

Arrival holding is a course reversal, but they don't call it that because it isn't at the IF or FAF. The AIM kind of covers arrival holding, but not really too well. It the controller is sharp, he/she will know when to use arrival holding, but don't count on it. You'll see more of them know that the course change limit onto RNAV from an airway is limited to 90 degrees instead of the former 120 degrees.

 

[luvflyin]

It's an arrival holding pattern and cannot be used without a specific ATC clearance. Most places that have arrival holding have them on the approach chart. Note the arrival hold at MOLLY:

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1802/00869r30.pdf#nameddest=(LRU)

Arrival holding is a course reversal, but they don't call it that because it isn't at the IF or FAF. The AIM kind of covers arrival holding, but not really too well. It the controller is sharp, he/she will know when to use arrival holding, but don't count on it. You'll see more of them know that the course change limit onto RNAV from an airway is limited to 90 degrees instead of the former 120 degrees.

Yeah. I remember the Approach at Las Cruces. We had a discussion here about that a couple years ago. The Charting Forum and the FAA weren't seeing eye to eye about when and where to put Arrival Holds as I recall. This is the first time I've seen a holding pattern on the Enroute Chart used as 'substitute,' so to speak, for an Arrival Hold. Just wondering if it's something new.

 

[luvflyin]

I wonder if they did that for space saving. The charted procedure already uses a lot of vertical space. Adding a feeder from V448 would probably require them to scale down the graphic and lose detail.
Just a guess here. I did not stay at Holiday Inn last night. (whatever that means )

That could be it, not enough room on the Chart. Speaking of 'room,' did you know you weren't spending the night there before or after booking a room?

 

[aterpster]

Yeah. I remember the Approach at Las Cruces. We had a discussion here about that a couple years ago. The Charting Forum and the FAA weren't seeing eye to eye about when and where to put Arrival Holds as I recall. This is the first time I've seen a holding pattern on the Enroute Chart used as 'substitute,' so to speak, for an Arrival Hold. Just wondering if it's something new.

The last amendment was in 2011.

 

[aterpster]

From the AIM:

NOTE−
Some approach charts have an arrival holding pattern depicted at the IAF using a “thin line” holding symbol. It is charted where holding is frequently required prior to starting the approach procedure so that detailed holding instructions are not required. The arrival holding pattern is not authorized unless assigned by Air Traffic Control. Holding at the same fix may also be depicted on the enroute chart. A hold−in−lieu of procedure turn is depicted by a “thick line” symbol, and is part of the instrument approach procedure as described in paragraph 5−4−9. (See U. S. Terminal Procedures booklets page E1 for both examples.)

 

[luvflyin]

From the AIM:

NOTE−
Some approach charts have an arrival holding pattern depicted at the IAF using a “thin line” holding symbol. It is charted where holding is frequently required prior to starting the approach procedure so that detailed holding instructions are not required. The arrival holding pattern is not authorized unless assigned by Air Traffic Control. Holding at the same fix may also be depicted on the enroute chart. A hold−in−lieu of procedure turn is depicted by a “thick line” symbol, and is part of the instrument approach procedure as described in paragraph 5−4−9. (See U. S. Terminal Procedures booklets page E1 for both examples.)

There it is. 5-4-9 a. 5. Thanks

 

[aterpster]

There it is. 5-4-9 a. 5. Thanks

The fact it is not depicted on the approach chart seems to run counter to the AIM language.

 

[luvflyin]

The fact it is not depicted on the approach chart seems to run counter to the AIM language.

Yeah. In this case it's more like '...depicted on the enroute chart instead of the approach chart,' instead of "Holding at the same fix may also be depicted on the enroute chart."

The hold at SAMIE is on the RNAV (GPS) Y Rwy 14 Approach. It looks like an Arrival Hold on the Jepp Chart. The GOV Chart has a Missed Approach hold depicted.