Holding at 400kts

Teller1900

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No, we didn't break the rules that bad! It was just a really [bad] night to fly.

It started with a 3.5 hr delay before I even got to the airport. Show time was 1630, I cleared security at 1623; plane came in at 1645 when I called clearance to get our release time. I knew it was bad when they laughed at me on the radio.

At 2023 we finally pushed off the gate and launched into the very unfriendly skies above Norfolk. It was my leg as our 10,000shp fought our 59,700lb load to take us airborne. The horses won, to the tune of 3,600fpm at 220kts.

Less than two minutes after the captain said "Rotate," I glance down at our groundspeed at the altimeter passes 7,000 feet: 110kts at 220 indicated. The wind was showing 63 knots as a quartering headwind. It's a bumpy, though quick climb.

Level at 15,000 - our final over this route - we usually "let 'em dance," but tonight we tell the flight attendants to stay seated as it's just too rough for the drink service. We try 17, no better. All the way to FL230...no dice. Back down to 15k where the headwinds are the most favorable.

Ten minutes into the flight we make the 90degree right turn over Hopewell, taking us around PXT's airspace an on course toward New York. As I slowly raise the right wing on the new heading I take a look at the windbarb on the MFD: 98kts, and only 20 degrees off the tail. With the power back at 73% we're riding the Vmo bar at 286kts indicated and a ground speed reading 409kts. Not half bad. Things started to smooth out as we got north of Philly and it was looking like we might actually make up a decent amount of time until "3227, Philly Approach, New York isn't taking your handoff; short notice holding - you're cleared to the BRANT intersection, hold east as published, ten mile legs approved. Expect further clearance...well...New York said they'll start taking guys at :15 past the next hour, they want you 20 in trail, and you're number 3 in the hold. Expect further clearance in a while. Maintain 1-5 tousand."

So much for making up time. Now, about this hold. Ahh, there BRANT in the flight plan - 5.3 miles ahead. And we're going 400kts with a quartering tail wind. Power levers to idle and lots of nose up trim. We hit the intersection still going 220 kts indicated. I turn into the hold as the captain finishes programing it into the FMS. The computer doesn't really appreciate the situation and chides us "Speed too fast for holding." It gets really mad when we finish the turn into the wind. Our ground speed drops from 400 to 120kts. The computer is ****ed. It does a decent job calculating the outbound leg with a 43 degree crab angle, but still blows through the inbound course with the 90kt wind blowing across the desired track. We only make three turns in holding before getting released direct Robbinsville; it helps that the outbound leg takes about an hour and a half.

Our base leg vector (actually direct AGNSS) for EWR's 22R required a 27 degree crab angle. 240 kts at 2500 feet flying sideways...that part was kind of cool. And then we got to make a short circling approach to 29; with Tower reported winds 330@27G39, I was ok not having to land 22.

And now, starting tonight, we get to play in the snow. Winter is officially here.
 

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Now that's just cool, thanks for sharing. Was the weather icing as well as windy?
 
Now that's just cool, thanks for sharing. Was the weather icing as well as windy?

Surprisingly not bad. We were actually between layers during the hold and on top for most of the cruise. We were showing ISA-10C at 15,000, but it was relatively clear. As we were getting our downwind vector at 5,000 it was still about -13 and we did start to get some light rime/mixed icing, but it really wasn't much at all. Mostly just bumpy and windy. I'm thinking tonight and tomorrow are going to be a different story, though!
 
5 miles before the fix you get a hold?! $*#&

That's actually really common at that fix. That's NY Approach's southern gate inbound, I know the RUUTH 1 Arrival (the one we were on) and I think a couple others all have holds there. Philly's airspace joins NY/Newark just a few miles past BRAND, so there is almost always going to be last minute holding if things start backing up in Newark.

What sucks is that we normally can't get 10 mile legs because it puts us right in Philly's departure path. We got lucky on this one...we already had a few people getting sick in the back, the last thing we needed was to be going around and around in a 1-min hold :yikes::vomit:
 
Surprisingly not bad. We were actually between layers during the hold and on top for most of the cruise. We were showing ISA-10C at 15,000, but it was relatively clear. As we were getting our downwind vector at 5,000 it was still about -13 and we did start to get some light rime/mixed icing, but it really wasn't much at all. Mostly just bumpy and windy.

Yeah, about this time last year I on a flight in the Navajo that wasn't dissimilar. We got light rime icing, but were in between layers on cruise. Going through the clouds we turned on the props, but the leading edges never got enough to blow the boots even once. On the way back (it was dark by then), we looked out the window and watched the voluptuous top exhaust of the TIO-540-A2Cs glowing through the nacelle's gills. Apparently once my instructor's wife saw that and asked if that meant something was wrong, he said "Something's only wrong if they stop doing that." :D

I'm thinking tonight and tomorrow are going to be a different story, though!

Yeah, I know around here tonight would not be a night to fly the Mooney out! There were a couple of holes in the clouds earlier that you could have climbed through, but as of an hour ago they'd all closed up. Don't try flying through them low clouds without deice. Yesterday was pretty icy around here, too, if you were actually in the soup.

I've gotten a hold as I was passing over a fix. Needless to say, the entry was not pretty. :rolleyes2:

I suppose I must not fly enough in congested areas - I've not once gotten a hold... in my vast 80 hours since I got my IR. ;)

Maybe if I end up flying the Mooney on the day before Thanksgiving as is presently planned I will get a hold or two.

the last thing we needed was to be going around and around in a 1-min hold :yikes::vomit:

Yeah, at least you got what, a minute and 20 second legs at 400 kts? :rofl:
 
Those be some ugly holds on flightaware. lol
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I suppose I must not fly enough in congested areas - I've not once gotten a hold... in my vast 80 hours since I got my IR. ;)

Maybe if I end up flying the Mooney on the day before Thanksgiving as is presently planned I will get a hold or two.

Try getting into EWR/LGA on a crap wx day. And by crap wx I mean, any day after 1pm when it's raining someone on Earth.

I got the hold on top of the fix once, going into LGA (go figure, it was New York Approach's fault again :rolleyes2:), but my all time favorite was the time LGA closed (emergency a/c inbound) after we had gotten through the northern arrival gate, "4832, hold on your present radial, at present position, left or right turns at your discretion, 10 mile legs approved. EFC...how much fuel do you have?" That turned into a long afternoon.

Yeah, at least you got what, a minute and 20 second legs at 400 kts? :rofl:

Hey, anything for passenger comfort :thumbsup:. Once we got it slowed down the outbound (into the wind) seemed to last a half an hour! Of course, even at 180 indicated the computer barely had time to intercept the course before it was turning outbound again.

EdFred said:
Those be some ugly holds on flightaware. lol

I blame it on George, the magic box in the panel! He normally does a good job of quickly correcting for winds (usually the first outbound leg has us perfect set up for the inbound) but this was just a little too much for him, apparently.
 
Try getting into EWR/LGA on a crap wx day. And by crap wx I mean, any day after 1pm when it's raining someone on Earth.

If it's truly raining people, then that would be annoying. ;)

Thankfully, dealing with the smaller airports makes it significantly easier. I may fly into LGA/JFK/EWR at some point, but it certainly won't be in the near future. I'd only do it if I was dropping off someone or picking someone up, and even then I'd try to get them to fly into PIT or PHL, as both are easier and more convenient for me.

I got the hold on top of the fix once, going into LGA (go figure, it was New York Approach's fault again :rolleyes2:), but my all time favorite was the time LGA closed (emergency a/c inbound) after we had gotten through the northern arrival gate, "4832, hold on your present radial, at present position, left or right turns at your discretion, 10 mile legs approved. EFC...how much fuel do you have?" That turned into a long afternoon.

As long as an afternoon as it was for you, I'm sure ATC was no happier having to deal with all of that! I try to remember that whenever they give me something annoying - they really work hard to make my flight easier.

Hey, anything for passenger comfort :thumbsup:. Once we got it slowed down the outbound (into the wind) seemed to last a half an hour! Of course, even at 180 indicated the computer barely had time to intercept the course before it was turning outbound again.

"On Teller Air, we advertise the safety and comfort of our aerobatic holding patterns." :D
 
...my all time favorite was the time LGA closed (emergency a/c inbound) after we had gotten through the northern arrival gate, "4832, hold on your present radial, at present position, left or right turns at your discretion, 10 mile legs approved. EFC...how much fuel do you have?"

"at present position" was the fix? Wow... that's a good one for armchair flying. In the plane you fly, how would YOU set that up? Would you have to hand-fly it, or do you know your autopilot well enough to have it fly the hold (not using heading mode)--is it even capable of doing so? If you were inbound on an ILS or localizer with DME or a cross radial, might not be hard. Or GPS with a distance readout to the next fix.

(Oh, and on your original post: cool story/account!!)
 
"at present position" was the fix? Wow... that's a good one for armchair flying. In the plane you fly, how would YOU set that up? Would you have to hand-fly it, or do you know your autopilot well enough to have it fly the hold (not using heading mode)--is it even capable of doing so? If you were inbound on an ILS or localizer with DME or a cross radial, might not be hard. Or GPS with a distance readout to the next fix.

(Oh, and on your original post: cool story/account!!)

Easy enough with the FMS generation... In the aircraft I fly, you hit Index, Hold, New Hold, PPOS (present position), enter the appropriate info (L/R turns, distance/time, inbound radial, etc), ENTER, and there ya go... Works like a charm!
 
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