High time 150 questions.

[Tom-D]

As is, it's a $3500 airplane in the resale market.

A new engine will run 20k. The current one is 600 hours past the 1800 hour TBO.

Your call. You said you can't imagine what you'd do with it after training...so you'd have to look at selling it. But to who?

Better to buy a plane that you think you're going to fly.

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/1297655.html

7k engine 8k aircraft, he is in the window of the market today.

 

[Jaybird180]

Still a high-time airframe. Sure he'd had an airworthy craft, but who would buy it from him?...certainly the less adventurous folks who'd searched PoA first would not.

 

[alfadog]

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/1297655.html

7k engine 8k aircraft, he is in the window of the market today.

And a bit more to ship and install. If he's got $17k to spend, I think he can do better. I would even hesitate on repairing the engine if it goes. This is a gamble and if you lose the gamble then dump it and take the loss. If you get 200 hours out of it then count yourself the winner and sell to the next gambler.

 

[poadeleted21]

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/1297655.html

7k engine 8k aircraft, he is in the window of the market today.

Someone going to go get it, install it and sign it off for free?

I could see an A&P I/A buying this plane, that engine and losing a couple thousand + their time at least. Even with that new engine installed and a shabby airtex job on the interior, I don't see it selling for a dime over 12K.

Here's one with 200 SMOH and half the TT for the same amount of money you're talking to buy a plane and an engine located states away.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966...rs_Aircraft&hash=item2571901c15#ht_500wt_1182

And it's already assembled with the engine in the same state. With what appears to be decent paint and interior.

8K is at least 6K too much in my book.. plus it comes with the headache of having to "fix it up" which does have a $ amount on it.

 

[Henning]

And a bit more to ship and install. If he's got $17k to spend, I think he can do better. I would even hesitate on repairing the engine if it goes. This is a gamble and if you lose the gamble then dump it and take the loss. If you get 200 hours out of it then count yourself the winner and sell to the next gambler.

Amen, not all planes are equal, if you are looking for 'your plane', this is not a great deal, however if it's something to fly low dollar and rent it out to get every last dime out of it, it may be a good deal. If he flies it 100hrs and rents it out another 250hrs at $60 hr he'll fly free and the others will pay for it. Once he's got his time out of it, he leaves it flying on leaseback until it's not profitable.
You can replace O-200s in a 150 in a day with a <$3000 used engine up to $7000 for an overhauled one, so an engine will require 100-200hrs of rental to pay off.

 

[Jaybird180]

Again, what FBO will accept the aircraft without onerous inspection maintenance requirements? You're asking them to take the risk. And there's no getting around the 100hr inspection requirement.

 

[alfadog]

I think we are missing something here. This fellow has that 12,000 hour airframe, $7k engine, a few more thousand in interior and avionics (still nowhere near $20k total) and seems to think three times that is a fair asking price. LOL.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160821049357

 

[Henning]

Again, what FBO will accept the aircraft without onerous inspection maintenance requirements? You're asking them to take the risk. And there's no getting around the 100hr inspection requirement.

Anyone that can realize a profit, that's who. Look at the rental fleet around the country, the worst junk sees the most hours. When most people are given the choice of flying a nice plane for $30hr more than a junk one, the junk one will be the one flying while the nice one picks up the extra hours, not the other way around. As long as pilots are cheap, the rental fleet will reflect that. When planes are available for less than the cost of a good radio or an engine rebuild, those are the planes that will be on the rental lines. Besides this, you can rent your plane with no FBO involved. 100hr inspections on a 150 take a half day and are not burdensome or expensive as long as you keep up on the little things.

 

[Skylane81E]

Again, what FBO will accept the aircraft without onerous inspection maintenance requirements? You're asking them to take the risk. And there's no getting around the 100hr inspection requirement.

We would, but in our experience 150s loose money. Folks are willing to pay the extra money for the size and performance of a 172. We owned one for a little while, had ONE renter who would come back to it. Everyone else flew it once if we were lucky then moved "up"

 

[Tom-D]

Still a high-time airframe. Sure he'd had an airworthy craft, but who would buy it from him?...

Any one who had done their home work and knew what they were looking at.

would you rather have a 12k airframe which has been hangar stored and very clean, with no corrosion or a 5k airframe which has never seen the inside of a hangar and needs a 15k corrosion clean up and repaint?

It's all about material condition, hours do not dictate condition.

 

[Henning]

Any one who had done their home work and knew what they were looking at.

would you rather have a 12k airframe which has been hangar stored and very clean, with no corrosion or a 5k airframe which has never seen the inside of a hangar and needs a 15k corrosion clean up and repaint?

It's all about material condition, hours do not dictate condition.

Yep, problem is that people believe that prime condition aircraft is worth the same as wrung out and run out. That's why most the planes you see on the market are junk, the good ones aren't getting sold in this market.

Every time I try to bring up value like material condition I get told I'm an idiot and nothing is worth more than someone will give me for it and show me a corroded, runout 310 ad for $35k and tell me that's what mine's worth. I've always wondered how many people consider resale value of their car when they buy it?

 

[Tom-D]

Yep, problem is that people believe that prime condition aircraft is worth the same as wrung out and run out. That's why most the planes you see on the market are junk, the good ones aren't getting sold in this market.

Every time I try to bring up value like material condition I get told I'm an idiot and nothing is worth more than someone will give me for it and show me a corroded, runout 310 ad for $35k and tell me that's what mine's worth. I've always wondered how many people consider resale value of their car when they buy it?

Once upon a time I bought 10893 a C-150 with 1650 hours on it, I ran it 3 years both my kids flew it, I used it as a rental and put 4500 hours on it while replacing the engine 3 times with a used engine, the highest cost for any of the 3 was $2500, I sold it to Ron Hawks at Boeing field flying club and they put 9600 hours on it, when Ron got him self killed the widow sold it to the club at BVS and they are still flying it. it now has well over 18,000 hours and still with standing the rigors of the students pilots.

They are a tough bird.

in 18,000 hours how many engine TBOs is that

 

[Henning]

Once upon a time I bought 10893 a C-150 with 1650 hours on it, I ran it 3 years both my kids flew it, I used it as a rental and put 4500 hours on it while replacing the engine 3 times with a used engine, the highest cost for any of the 3 was $2500, I sold it to Ron Hawks at Boeing field flying club and they put 9600 hours on it, when Ron got him self killed the widow sold it to the club at BVS and they are still flying it. it now has well over 18,000 hours and still with standing the rigors of the students pilots.

They are a tough bird.

in 18,000 hours how many engine TBOs is that

10 TBOs which is likely 8 or 9 engines. That's a low time one compared to the one my boss flew pipeline with, the 1946 PA 12 I was flying had 22,000+ and had less than half the 45,000 his 150 did and that plane flew 6-8 hrs a day. He had a spare engine for each and any job that would take more than a day was an engine swap. That plane had a hangar all it's life in TX and had 0 corrosion, but was one wrung out little plane.

 

[Skylane81E]

Once upon a time I bought 10893 a C-150 with 1650 hours on it, I ran it 3 years both my kids flew it, I used it as a rental and put 4500 hours on it while replacing the engine 3 times with a used engine, the highest cost for any of the 3 was $2500, I sold it to Ron Hawks at Boeing field flying club and they put 9600 hours on it, when Ron got him self killed the widow sold it to the club at BVS and they are still flying it. it now has well over 18,000 hours and still with standing the rigors of the students pilots.

They are a tough bird.

in 18,000 hours how many engine TBOs is that

You will find no 150 hate here, just think that the OPs airplane is likely not the best buy out there:wink2:

 

[Tom-D]

You will find no 150 hate here, just think that the OPs airplane is likely not the best buy out there:wink2:

It may be just me, But I like a clean airframe and a new engine, I always buy any aircraft knowing it needs an engine. When I get a few hours I think I cheated the seller.

 

[firebug]

Well I called this morning to go pick it up and was told someone from out of state sent them a deposit check by mail. If it doesn't make it by tomorrow I'll have another shot at it. Thanks for all the help. This is the most informative forum I've ever been a member of!

 

[dell30rb]

quick question.. when buying insurance on a 150, does 152 time count as time in type?

any good links to insurance calculators.. i tried aopa and avemco and could not get a quote, just looking for ballpark numbers. I have 180hrs in 152's and 250TT plus IR.

I'm kinda pricing out costs of ownership.... 8-12,000 planes have me a shopping

 

[Henning]

quick question.. when buying insurance on a 150, does 152 time count as time in type?

I'm kinda pricing out costs of ownership....

Yes, you can just write C-15x and list both.

Plane is $12k-$25k. Figure an engine is worth about $5hr, fuel&oil $35hr, other maint will be $5-$15hr.

Insurance will be between .9%and 4% hull value unless it's a commercial policy, hangars vary widely with airports and I consider them worthwhile.

 

[dell30rb]

Yes, you can just write C-15x and list both.

Plane is $12k-$25k. Figure an engine is worth about $5hr, fuel&oil $35hr, other maint will be $5-$15hr.

That's what i've come up with.. fuel is about $25 hour (I figure half 100LL and half 93 octane mogas) engine $7 maint $12.

Right now I am flying an IFR 152 and paying the owner $24 per hour for maintenance/engine. Looking at his recent costs, it seems to be working out slightly in his favor.

I have a buddy who is interested in splitting a plane and If I finance half of a $15k plane the monthly fixed costs (5yr loan pmt, insurance, tiedown) will be south of $200 per month.

Thing is we need an IFR bird. Taking a basic VFR 150 with a single nav/com and a good 6 pack, then adding another nav/com with GS plus a pitot/static check would suffice though. Or finding one that is already IFR.. I think that can be done for $15k

 

[Skylane81E]

Can you honestly get ethanol free Mogas in NC? Just be sure before you budget accordingly.

 

[dell30rb]

Can you honestly get ethanol free Mogas in NC? Just be sure before you budget accordingly.

Yeah and I run it all the time in the 152 w petersen STC. 93 octane too...

There is a mogas stc for the 150 correct?

 

[Skylane81E]

Yeah and I run it all the time in the 152 w petersen STC. 93 octane too...

There is a mogas stc for the 150 correct?

Should be, just gotta be sure of these things, seen folks buy planes expecting to burn cheap Mogas and get burned due to lack of availability

 

[Henning]

Yeah and I run it all the time in the 152 w petersen STC. 93 octane too...

There is a mogas stc for the 150 correct?

Using 100LL is not only a waste of money in fuel but also in engine work. Most money spent on airplane engines is due to lead build up on your valves. If you can get unleaded without alcohol it's much better for these engines.

 

[Tom-D]

Using 100LL is not only a waste of money in fuel but also in engine work. Most money spent on airplane engines is due to lead build up on your valves. If you can get unleaded without alcohol it's much better for these engines.

Bull sheet

 

[dell30rb]

Bull sheet

Why do O-200's tend to have valve issues then?

I do use the 93UL in the plane anytime i'm not traveling, which is about half the time.

 

[Tom-D]

Why do O-200's tend to have valve issues then?

I do use the 93UL in the plane anytime i'm not traveling, which is about half the time.

They have valve problems on auto too.

This was run on auto for all of its short life.

running auto produces a very hard black carbon, running 100LL mix will produce a carbon deposit that has lead in it and will be softer than the hard carbon of auto.

thus 100ll/lead will wear less than the hard carbon. think how a diamond is made, with contaminates its just a rock, with pure carbon it's very hard.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Why do O-200's tend to have valve issues then?

I do use the 93UL in the plane anytime i'm not traveling, which is about half the time.

We ran two 150s in the flight school. Had more valve issues with Mogas than with 100LL. Even a 75% Mogas/25% 100LL mix didn't work as well as straight 100LL. We didn't have lead buildup problems with the Avgas. A pilot who never leans the mixture might.

Dan

 

[Tom-D]

We ran two 150s in the flight school. Had more valve issues with Mogas than with 100LL. Even a 75% Mogas/25% 100LL mix didn't work as well as straight 100LL. We didn't have lead buildup problems with the Avgas. A pilot who never leans the mixture might.

Dan

It's a matter of When the valve fails, whether you ream the guide or change the valve and guide.

 

[poadeleted21]

...I've always wondered how many people consider resale value of their car when they buy it?

I do, that's why I've always owed run out pieces of sh.. The most I've ever paid for a vehicle was 5K, sold it for 7k

 

[poadeleted21]

Any one who had done their home work and knew what they were looking at.

would you rather have a 12k airframe which has been hangar stored and very clean, with no corrosion or a 5k airframe which has never seen the inside of a hangar and needs a 15k corrosion clean up and repaint?

It's all about material condition, hours do not dictate condition.

maybe not but hours do dictated if the next buyer is going to call you or not. If you're buying an 8K airplane worth 1K to put a couple hundred hours on while you pray it doesn't quit in the wrong spot at the wrong time then pawn it off on the next sucker.... 12,000 hours is an issue and makes the pool of potential buyers a lot smaller. How sophisticated is the buyer of an 8K run out 150? about as sophisticated as reading the number of airframe hours and AOPA Vref that says it's worth $635.

 

[Henning]

They have valve problems on auto too.

This was run on auto for all of its short life.

running auto produces a very hard black carbon, running 100LL mix will produce a carbon deposit that has lead in it and will be softer than the hard carbon of auto.

thus 100ll/lead will wear less than the hard carbon. think how a diamond is made, with contaminates its just a rock, with pure carbon it's very hard.

If you are rich enough to produce hard black carbon from oxygenated Mogas there is some definite engine operation changing needs to happen.

 

[Tom-D]

If you are rich enough to produce hard black carbon from oxygenated Mogas there is some definite engine operation changing needs to happen.

oxygenated Mogas = Alcohol, still a hydrocarbon and with out some thing to contaminate it, it will make a hard carbon no matter how much you burn.

 

[Henning]

oxygenated Mogas = Alcohol, still a hydrocarbon and with out some thing to contaminate it, it will make a hard carbon no matter how much you burn.

There are other ways to oxygenate the fuel besides alcohol, it's just the method that makes Cargill the most money. You will not form deposits that stick and burn valves running Mogas properly leaned. How many cars with burned valves have you seen since the 80s? Pull apart a head from a 200,000 mile Honda and measure the deposits.

 

[Skylane81E]

There are other ways to oxygenate the fuel besides alcohol, it's just the method that makes Cargill the most money. You will not form deposits that stick and burn valves running Mogas properly leaned. How many cars with burned valves have you seen since the 80s? Pull apart a head from a 200,000 mile Honda and measure the deposits.

Pull apart a 60,000 mile ecotec DI...

 

[Henning]

Pull apart a 60,000 mile ecotec DI...

Haven't got a chance to play around with any of the new DI gas engines, most all my time in the last few years has been with medium and larger Diesels where digital really shines. How do they do?

 

[Tom-D]

There are other ways to oxygenate the fuel besides alcohol, it's just the method that makes Cargill the most money. You will not form deposits that stick and burn valves running Mogas properly leaned. How many cars with burned valves have you seen since the 80s? Pull apart a head from a 200,000 mile Honda and measure the deposits.

Who's talking about burned valves?

the 0-200 doesn't run hot enough to burn valves, It simply chokes the guide until it sticks a valve open, (if you are lucky) then it is a matter of doing the rope trick ream the guide and keep going.

But the auto users have the problem of the hard carbon sticking to the valve stem, and wearing the guide, so you get to pull the cylinder and have it overhauled or replaced because we don't change the guide while the cylinder is installed.
That is what the Lycoming service bulletin to do the valve wobble check is for, (checking for excessive guide wear) IMHO auto accelerates this problem.

Note the hard black carbon stuck to the valve stem. The leaded fuel the lead will stick to the cooler surface (guide)

 

[Henning]

Who's talking about burned valves?

the 0-200 doesn't run hot enough to burn valves, It simply chokes the guide until it sticks a valve open, (if you are lucky) then it is a matter of doing the rope trick ream the guide and keep going.

But the auto users have the problem of the hard carbon sticking to the valve stem, and wearing the guide, so you get to pull the cylinder and have it overhauled or replaced because we don't change the guide while the cylinder is installed.
That is what the Lycoming service bulletin to do the valve wobble check is for, (checking for excessive guide wear) IMHO auto accelerates this problem.

Note the hard black carbon stuck to the valve stem. The leaded fuel the lead will stick to the cooler surface (guide)

The carbon is also what burns them and any engine that has a leaky valve is developing enough heat to burn a notch out of it, even a 3hp Briggs and Stratton. You will not see a reduction in any level of build up that sticks valves open by running 100LL, You will not see a reduction in valve guide wear by running 100LL. The only thing 100LL will do for an O-200 is increase the problems.

 

[Tom-D]

The carbon is also what burns them and any engine that has a leaky valve is developing enough heat to burn a notch out of it, even a 3hp Briggs and Stratton. You will not see a reduction in any level of build up that sticks valves open by running 100LL, You will not see a reduction in valve guide wear by running 100LL. The only thing 100LL will do for an O-200 is increase the problems.

the leak does not occur until we have guide to stem problems causing the valve not to close properly.

causes.
1. the stem has worn the guide, and no longer sets squarely on the seat.
2. The guide is clogged with lead, and the valve can't close.

It's simply a matter of which problem you would like to fix easiest.

Ream the guide with the cylinder in place?
or
Remove the cylinder and replace the guide and valve?

which is the less costly?
I can do the rope trick in about 30 minutes after the cowl is removed.
You could be looking at a bunch of down time waiting for a cylinder.

 

[bflynn]

Yeah and I run it all the time in the 152 w petersen STC. 93 octane too...

There is a mogas stc for the 150 correct?

Interesting, where do you get it from?

I ask because I know that several years ago the state legislature (bless their hearts) changed the law so that gas stations no longer have to say that there is any ethanol in the fuel. As a result, most owners/operators really don't know anymore unless they're taking special steps during their buying process. And because most owners don't know, you can bet that consumers have no way to tell.

But if we can get real gas, I'd like to know where it is...

 

[Skylane81E]

Haven't got a chance to play around with any of the new DI gas engines, most all my time in the last few years has been with medium and larger Diesels where digital really shines. How do they do?

Carboned up and dead