Hi Performance Cars VS. High Performance planes

Dean

Dean

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Dean
We hear all the time about high paid professionals that learn to fly and then right after they get their ticket, go buy a HP airplane and make a smoking whole in the ground.

I have been a driving instructor for almost 20 years and can tell you its not just airplanes. I did a class this weekend and a Doctor in his mid 50's shows up in his brand new Mercedes Benz e63 AMG. For those that don't know this car, it has 525 HP/465 lb-ft of torque and a 0-60 time of 4.5 seconds.

After spend two days with him just doing the basic "get to know your car" exercises and some defensive driving techniques, it was obvious that this was WAAAAAY to much car for this man. Even if I spent a month plus with him, he was never going to be able to handle it..

So as an instructor I felt I had an obligation to tell him that he really should consider a down grade before he kills himself or someone else.

So have any of you CFI's done the same with an HP airplane and had to tell someone "You don't have what it takes and probably never will" I could keep working with this gent and keep taking his money, but the outcome is going to be the same.
 
Dean said:
We hear all the time about high paid professionals that learn to fly and then right after they get their ticket, go buy a HP airplane and make a smoking whole in the ground.

I have been a driving instructor for almost 20 years and can tell you its not just airplanes. I did a class this weekend and a Doctor in his mid 50's shows up in his brand new Mercedes Benz e63 AMG. For those that don't know this car, it has 525 HP/465 lb-ft of torque and a 0-60 time of 4.5 seconds.

After spend two days with him just doing the basic "get to know your car" exercises and some defensive driving techniques, it was obvious that this was WAAAAAY to much car for this man. Even if I spent a month plus with him, he was never going to be able to handle it..

So as an instructor I felt I had an obligation to tell him that he really should consider a down grade before he kills himself or someone else.

So have any of you CFI's done the same with an HP airplane and had to tell someone "You don't have what it takes and probably never will" I could keep working with this gent and keep taking his money, but the outcome is going to be the same.
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There's a reason why you almost never see a Dodge Viper on the road. 99% of them are either wrecked in the first 2 days of ownership or locked in a garage because the owner is afraid of it.
 
Ditto this. I drove a friend's Viper last summer. What a blast. I don't have any training nor much experience with HP cars. I took it easy, and it still spooked me a bit.



Keane said:
There's a reason why you almost never see a Dodge Viper on the road. 99% of them are either wrecked in the first 2 days of ownership or locked in a garage because the owner is afraid of it.
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What are you considering a HP airplane? Is it the same as the FAA definition, or are you thinking of some higher standard?

Would a 182 fit your perception?
 
I can understand how having a high performance aircraft can get you into trouble.

I have no experience with high performance cars. What is it about a high performance car that gets you killed other than just going too fast for the conditions. Which can happen with a normal car.
 
skidoo said:
What are you considering a HP airplane? Is it the same as the FAA definition, or are you thinking of some higher standard?

Would a 182 fit your perception?
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Not to start the airplane war, but like the low time pilot that buys an A36 Bo, SR22, Cessna 400 etc, the 182 is just a 172 on steroids.
 
Dean said:
We hear all the time about high paid professionals that learn to fly and then right after they get their ticket, go buy a HP airplane and make a smoking whole in the ground.

I have been a driving instructor for almost 20 years and can tell you its not just airplanes. I did a class this weekend and a Doctor in his mid 50's shows up in his brand new Mercedes Benz e63 AMG. For those that don't know this car, it has 525 HP/465 lb-ft of torque and a 0-60 time of 4.5 seconds.

After spend two days with him just doing the basic "get to know your car" exercises and some defensive driving techniques, it was obvious that this was WAAAAAY to much car for this man. Even if I spent a month plus with him, he was never going to be able to handle it..

So as an instructor I felt I had an obligation to tell him that he really should consider a down grade before he kills himself or someone else.

So have any of you CFI's done the same with an HP airplane and had to tell someone "You don't have what it takes and probably never will" I could keep working with this gent and keep taking his money, but the outcome is going to be the same.
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I know this is going to come off as insulting, which I don't mean it to be, so I'll apologize in advance. This is the silliest thread I've yet seen on POA.

My bike is faster than any land vehicle any of you have ever driven, period. It is twitchier and more maneuverable to boot (as much hp as my cherokee at about 400lbs). 0-60 in way less than 4.5. And being a motorcycle, it is already dangerous as all get out. What could I do to make such a beast safe? Lean off the throttle. Rides like any other bike, just turns faster and stops quicker. The fellow in the Benz could just keep his leaden foot off the gas. His car will drive like any other. Why he felt the need to go to a driving instructor is beyond me. I didn't go to an instructor to learn my Fireblade, I just did it (ran prescriptions out to my mother-in-law just to ride the thing. What fun!)

High performance aircraft are a different beast. You can't just lay off the throttle and expect it to act like a low performance airplane, many have complex systems and flight characteristics that take a well-prepared pilot to master. That said, most pilots should be able to learn to fly such aircraft with sufficient training. Any CFI who tells their student to fly a different aircraft instead of flying the one they got is likely a poor instructor unwilling to do their job.
 
steingar said:
My bike is faster than any land vehicle any of you have ever driven, period. It is twitchier and more maneuverable to boot (as much hp as my cherokee at about 400lbs). 0-60 in way less than 4.5. And being a motorcycle, it is already dangerous as all get out. What could I do to make such a beast safe? Lean off the throttle. Rides like any other bike, just turns faster and stops quicker. The fellow in the Benz could just keep his leaden foot off the gas. His car will drive like any other. Why he felt the need to go to a driving instructor is beyond me. I didn't go to an instructor to learn my Fireblade, I just did it (ran prescriptions out to my mother-in-law just to ride the thing. What fun!)
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Take someone that is used to riding a 50cc moped and put them on a CBR1000RR and you'll see them quickly bust their ass. Staying off the throttle isn't as easy as it sounds when you're extremely new and unsmooth. Accidental over-use of power on a liter bike is extremely common and is what results in many of them getting busted.

I've let a few select people ride my Bandit 1200S which is no CBR1000RR. They're always used to less powerful/torquey machines and I've seen them nearly dump it immediately from improper throttle application. (not many people get to ride my bandit).

I will not fault those who seek guidance from the more experienced when they're learning a new machine of any type.

Plenty of people buy a bike like a CBR1000 because they WANT to push it to the limits on a closed course track. If that is their mission - instruction from someone who is good at doing just that would be very wise.
 
steingar said:
Any CFI who tells their student to fly a different aircraft instead of flying the one they got is likely a poor instructor unwilling to do their job.
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I have a Liter bike.

Anyway, I would never suggest that my father -- who I gave first duel to in 30 years last summer -- ever buy a Bonanza.

And he would agree.

Part of a CFI's responsibilty includes candid assessments of current proficiency when requested.
 
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jesse said:
Take someone that is used to riding a 50cc moped and put them on a CBR1000RR and you'll see them quickly bust their ass. Staying off the throttle isn't as easy as it sounds when you're extremely new and unsmooth. Accidental over-use of power on a liter bike is extremely common and is what results in many of them getting busted.

I've let a few select people ride my Bandit 1200S which is no CBR1000RR. They're always used to less powerful/torquey machines and I've seen them nearly dump it immediately from improper throttle application. (not many people get to ride my bandit).

I will not fault those who seek guidance from the more experienced when they're learning a new machine of any type.

Plenty of people buy a bike like a CBR1000 because they WANT to push it to the limits on a closed course track. If that is their mission - instruction from someone who is good at doing just that would be very wise.
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Very good points Jesse, Thanks. And the closed course is were HP bikes and cars should be put to the test, not on the street. A lot of time the person sharing the road with the HP driver is the victim.
 
Jesse's right on the bikes. That's why my motorcycle mentor when I started riding told me to get something 600ccs or less and nothing with the letter "R" in the name. I ended up getting a KZ700, which was acceptable since it had such low compression that it was effectively a 600. Even on that, I could see where improper use of the throttle could cause issues. I had a Bandit 1200S like Jesse, same thing. It's not just not going full throttle, it's apply it appropriately. Same thing with cars. Plus a lot of them don't have gentle characteristics when you push them too far, they just lose traction.

High performance airplanes (and to me this is about primarily aerodynamic performance, not just engine) similarly require pilots who can handle the more advanced systems and be more careful about flying them the way they need to be flown. A lot of people shouldn't be flying anything more than a Cherokee. A lot of people shouldn't be flying at all.

As a CFI, I will fully admit that there are some people that I can't teach. Some of that is due to my own faults as an instructor, but some of that is also due to people who just don't have "the knack." Not everyone has it. Goes for planes, cars, motorcycles, and most other mechanical devices.
 
I seem to recall reading about a lawsuit that Porsche lost a while back that the widow sued becuase the car was just too fast and there were not enough placards that said don't be stupid ( or something to that effect :)).
 
jtheune said:
I seem to recall reading about a lawsuit that Porsche lost a while back that the widow sued becuase the car was just too fast and there were not enough placards that said don't be stupid ( or something to that effect :)).
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Don%27t%20Be%20Stupid.jpg
 
jesse said:
Take someone that is used to riding a 50cc moped and put them on a CBR1000RR and you'll see them quickly bust their ass. Staying off the throttle isn't as easy as it sounds when you're extremely new and unsmooth. Accidental over-use of power on a liter bike is extremely common and is what results in many of them getting busted.

I've let a few select people ride my Bandit 1200S which is no CBR1000RR. They're always used to less powerful/torquey machines and I've seen them nearly dump it immediately from improper throttle application. (not many people get to ride my bandit).

I will not fault those who seek guidance from the more experienced when they're learning a new machine of any type.

Plenty of people buy a bike like a CBR1000 because they WANT to push it to the limits on a closed course track. If that is their mission - instruction from someone who is good at doing just that would be very wise.
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Take a noob and put them on a sportbike and yes, you'll have a sore-assed noob in short order. Take someone with even a glimmer of street or dirtbike experience and put them on a Fireblade and they'll do just fine if they have but a lick of sense in their heads. I know plenty of people who've had big bore sportbikes as their first street bikes, and they're still kicking. Most of the folks who buy the things do it to stunt, which is why the average life expectancy can be measured in weeks and the average insurance policy in triple digits. I personally won't go anywhere near a track as anything other than a spectator. I know too many dead racers.

Take someone used to a Toyota and put them in a Ferrari and they'll do just fine if they have a lick of sense in their heads. Ferrari offers lots of advantages to a Toyota, as it will stop faster and turn better. Just keep off the throttle, not exactly rocket science here. Bikes are bikes, and cars are cars.

Airplanes are not airplanes. For example, I would not try and fly an experimental Lanceair without a boatload of training, it is a totally different beast than what fly. I'll happily jump on whatever bike you have or whatever car you're driving. Unless it has right hand drive or some other drastic control change, it just won't be that different, and nothing is faster than what I ride already. And I hoped onto that vehicle with no training at all, and I'm the most pathetic klutz who ever lived.
 
I wish I could find it, but I remember a video on youtube of someone with new Hayabusa that gave it a little too much gas and dropped it before even getting out of the dealers parking lot.
 
The other thing with high-end sports cars is that they are a lot less forgiving on 'the edge'. In a Toyota turning too hard will make a large amount of shimmying and complaining long before spinning. A Ferrari/Porsche/etc will spin/slide seemingly without provocation.

New inexperienced drivers of the high-end sports cars tend to have an inflated sense of the abilities of the car, and do something stupid.

In addition (as it has been mentioned) throttle control on a high powered car is VERY touchy. A little too much gas a little too early in a corner, and you get to see a nice 720 degree view of the street.

Finally, many high end cars are Turbo charged. Thanks to turbo lag many rookie drivers find themselves with too much throttle low in the power band, just to have boost kick in and kill them. It is VEEERY easy to mess up if you haven't driven a high-boost turbo car before.
 
Kind of pompous to tell someone they can't drive a streetcar. Used to call the it 'the bowling speech' as in better take up bowling. Never had to give it to a flight student and only seen it delivered to handful of skydive students after they were given many chances to learn. A street car? Maverick you are dangerous....
 
ClimbnSink said:
Kind of pompous to tell someone they can't drive a streetcar. Used to call the it 'the bowling speech' as in better take up bowling. Never had to give it to a flight student and only seen it delivered to handful of skydive students after they were given many chances to learn. A street car? Maverick you are dangerous....
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Usually you don't have to tell them... they find out right after the wreck their 20 mile old 200k car :yesnod:
 
Again, it is really simple common sense to lay off the throttle until you are comfortable with the thing. Yes, lots of people don't (and there are some graphic photos linked to another thread to prove it) but that doesn't change the fact. Any of us could easily drive a Ferrari. I doubt any of us could fly a Bonanza. I doubt I could, not without a fair bit of training. Apples and oranges IMHO.
 
steingar said:
Again, it is really simple common sense to lay off the throttle until you are comfortable with the thing. Yes, lots of people don't (and there are some graphic photos linked to another thread to prove it) but that doesn't change the fact. Any of us could easily drive a Ferrari. I doubt any of us could fly a Bonanza. I doubt I could, not without a fair bit of training. Apples and oranges IMHO.
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I have spent more money learning how to drive cars to their limits than I have training to fly airplanes. It is not a matter of laying off the throttle. It is about learning vehicle dynamics, track conditions, sensory feedback, and the rules. I would also submit that it takes more talent and ability to drive well than it does to fly well.

BTW, these guys are planning on putting in a runway.

I think the thing you are forgetting is that while it is easy to "drive" a Ferrari it is not easy to push it to 80% of its envelope which you must do to an airplane every time you fly.

Eggman
 
I've never to my knowledge driven a high performance car, but I'm thinking that what gets people in trouble with high performance airplanes is not the size of the engine unless it's something like a P-51, but the handling characteristics and higher speeds necessary to keep them aloft. A C-206 has a somewhat larger engine than a trainer but I don't think it will get that many people in trouble whereas a Lancair might.
 
fgcason said:
+1

Countless classic examples are readily available just about anytime anywhere that there is a road 24/7/365.25 for at least the last 25+ years.
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We must be pompous. :D
 
steingar said:
I know this is going to come off as insulting, which I don't mean it to be, so I'll apologize in advance. This is the silliest thread I've yet seen on POA.

My bike is faster than any land vehicle any of you have ever driven, period. It is twitchier and more maneuverable to boot (as much hp as my cherokee at about 400lbs). 0-60 in way less than 4.5. And being a motorcycle, it is already dangerous as all get out. What could I do to make such a beast safe? Lean off the throttle. Rides like any other bike, just turns faster and stops quicker. The fellow in the Benz could just keep his leaden foot off the gas. His car will drive like any other. Why he felt the need to go to a driving instructor is beyond me. I didn't go to an instructor to learn my Fireblade, I just did it (ran prescriptions out to my mother-in-law just to ride the thing. What fun!)

High performance aircraft are a different beast. You can't just lay off the throttle and expect it to act like a low performance airplane, many have complex systems and flight characteristics that take a well-prepared pilot to master. That said, most pilots should be able to learn to fly such aircraft with sufficient training. Any CFI who tells their student to fly a different aircraft instead of flying the one they got is likely a poor instructor unwilling to do their job.
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Sorry to bust your bubble but I leave bikes like yours all the time in 911 turbo. 0-60 3.5 range.
Here is a link car and driver says 3.2 0-60
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/02/2010-porsche-911-turbo-first-drive/
 
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I think that this is the sign they should have...

fire.JPG

It's just as true as "Bridge May Be Icy" :D
 
dennyleeb said:
Sorry to bust your bubble but I leave bikes like yours all the time in 911 turbo. 0-60 3.5 range.
Here is a link car and driver says 3.2 0-60
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/02/2010-porsche-911-turbo-first-drive/
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My Suzuki Bandit 1200S will 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. It also costs $3,000. Hard to beat the performance per dollar of sport bikes.

That said, not many riders can actually do it that fast. Plus it takes pretty good conditions to hook up with that much power on the rear wheel. But..it probably does for the 911 as well.
 
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jesse said:
My Suzuki Bandit 1200S will 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. It also costs $3,000. Hard to beat the performance per dollar of sport bikes.
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Now Jesse, don't go bursting bubbles like that. His overpriced VW has just got to be quicker and faster than anything else. It's just gotta!
 
Keane said:
In a Toyota turning too hard will make a large amount of shimmying and complaining long before spinning. A Ferrari/Porsche/etc will spin/slide seemingly without provocation.
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No, not generally. You get plenty of warnings in those cars that you're about to get a bit of oversteer. And you have to try to get into a situation with the newer Porsches where you can't correct the oversteer (probably the same with the newer Ferraris, but I have no first-hand experience).

I believe most (all?) Toyotas are front-wheel drive. As such, of course they understeer (what you call shimmy) a lot. But if you actually know how to drive, a RWD HP car will generally be easier to control at high speeds. I'd much rather be driving my HP RWD car (about as fast as that E63) than the Camry I had before. Perfect weight distribution helps a lot.

So, I don't think the problem is rooted in too much horse power, torque, etc. There's two main causes: People never learn how to drive correctly, especially at the edge of the performance envelope, and they're unable to accurately assess their own skill level. It doesn't help that one doesn't generally learn how to drive well in a typical driving school course. I think everybody should at least be aware of what understeer/oversteer is, how it's induced, why braking down a long hill is a bad idea, and so on. Most people haven't even practiced an emergency stop, and they have no idea if their car has ABS or how that might be important.

In short, they're completely unaware of very basic components of driving well. Otherwise, I would not see at least 1 tailgater in a 1980s pickup truck on the freeway every day who has absolutely no way of stopping in time if I just tap my brakes.

-Felix
 
dennyleeb said:
Sorry to bust your bubble but I leave bikes like yours all the time in 911 turbo. 0-60 3.5 range.
Here is a link car and driver says 3.2 0-60
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/02/2010-porsche-911-turbo-first-drive/
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The CBRs (mine at least) will do 0-60 in 2.9. You lose.

Reminds of of the guy that pulled up to me in his Saleen'd out Mustang. At a light, I'm not paying attention, and he pulls up next to me, and I'm sitting up waiting for the light, and he starts revving the engine. I don't bother to look, so he revs it louder and faster. I look over at him and shake my head no. He leans on the throttle again. I click it into gear, shake my head to myself because I know how this is going to turn out. Light goes green, I eat the clutch just enough to keep my front tire down, I hear his wheels chirp, and see nothing in my peripheral after 25 feet. I take it to 100, then back down to 55 (the speed limit), count to 5, and THEN he goes by at 100+
 
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steingar said:
Same here. The Trapper's RC-51 might be able to beat the 954 depending on who's the better rider.
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That goes for most things. I've beaten my friend's modified 3000GT VR-4 with my XJ-S...
 
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