Hey young people, tell us what you can do!

[Half Fast]

Maybe @Half Fast is bored in his retirement...

HAH!

...and wants to general a house build.

I’m having enough trouble with my own house, thank you.

 

[Half Fast]

We're renting a house that almost exactly matches that description (minus the garage), and would probably have offered to buy it except that the yard needs ~$75k in regrading and fill to prevent it from turning into a 8" deep lake every time it floods.

Well, if you can find a decent lot, maybe you could buy the house (only) and have it moved. But you’d have to get a fantastic price; that house needs work.

But I know you - if @2-Bit Speed buys you lumber and nails, you’ll watch a YouTube video and build a castle. And have dinner on the stove by the time he’s off work to boot!

 

[Racerx]

Next fly in.... A POA habitat for humanity amalgamation

 

[Zeldman]

I heard yurts are the popular with the young crowd these days..

 

[Fiveslide]

So, whereas a home could be purchased for 3.05 years' salary in 1984, now it takes close to 7

This really should be a number more buyers look to when shopping, get it as low as possible. Our's when we bought, was 1.4. Now, our mortgage is a little over 7% of our take home income every month. It's even less than rent at the low income apartments in the all the nearest towns. Our number isn't low because we make a lot of money, either. It's low because we live a long way from any city, in a regular house, not a new McMansion in a neighborhood with a clubhouse and pool.

Buying what home the bank says you can afford, is a great way to end up eating dinner of Ramen noodles every night in a home you can't afford.

 

[Racerx]

Might sound bad but...

View attachment 134373

Play the long game.... Become a hoodlum and terrorize a neighborhood every night for months on end. Have fun and be creative with it!

 

[JOhnH]

This really should be a number more buyers look to when shopping, get it as low as possible. Our's when we bought, was 1.4. Now, our mortgage is a little over 7% of our take home income every month

Your situation is probably different than mine. I paid cash for my house, but I still spend over a grand a month on property taxes and home and flood insurance. I also have to pay for my utilities, lawn care and maintenance. I'm probably paying more than a "low income renter".

 

[Bob Noel]

Play the long game.... Become a hoodlum and terrorize a neighborhood every night for months on end. Have fun and be creative with it!

or you could be like that 182 owner that flew low, slow, and loud over neighborhoods near an airport. He had a history of buying property near an airpot and then helping to get the airport shutdown...

 

[Fiveslide]

Your situation is probably different than mine. I paid cash for my house, but I still spend over a grand a month on property taxes and home and flood insurance. I also have to pay for my utilities, lawn care and maintenance. I'm probably paying more than a "low income renter".

Yes. Our property taxes on the house are under $500 for the year. Like I said, we bought an inexpensive home, in an inexpensive area. County taxes only, no city or town property taxes. If we were in the nearby town limits, it would double the rate on everything... home, cars, dogs, etc... That's still extremely cheap compared to other areas.

But we live a half hour drive from any type of convenience. No nearby grocery stores, shopping or restaurants. Get a little old car that gets great gas mileage, and it's super cheap to live here.

 

[Racerx]

or you could be like that 182 owner that flew low, slow, and loud over neighborhoods near an airport. He had a history of buying property near an airpot and then helping to get the airport shutdown...

A two pronged attack. @SkyChaser practices turns around a point in the target area. While @2-Bit Speed gets em on the ground

 

[Racerx]

Your situation is probably different than mine. I paid cash for my house, but I still spend over a grand a month on property taxes and home and flood insurance. I also have to pay for my utilities, lawn care and maintenance. I'm probably paying more than a "low income renter".

Lake county Illinois resident here. One of the higher tax rates in the country. That property I paid 176k for in 2012 is now assessed north of 450. Property taxes alone are 13k a year.

 

[GaryM]

Lake county Illinois resident here. One of the higher tax rates in the country. That property I paid 176k for in 2012 is now assessed north of 450. Property taxes alone are 13k a year.

Before we fled NJ earlier this year, our property taxes were $22,000. Bought almost twice as much house in Idaho and the taxes fell to $5k, 1/4 of which is a special assessment set to expire this year

Gas, electric, water, TV, internet dropped by half, on average.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The world could do with a few less teachers and a few more HVAC technicians.

In case you haven't noticed - There's a massive teacher shortage now, and it's going to get MUCH worse before it gets better. The lack of respect given to one of the most important professions there is has had a big effect. Quite a few major college education departments have shut down due to lack of interest from students.

But as for teachers, I think we need more of them, but we need to get rid of the teacher's unions

I hate unions, but some unions are necessary, teachers among them. Wisconsin effectively got rid of teachers unions in 2011 and we are on the verge of a crisis.

I wish more 'starter-homes' were being built, but everything seems like a mansion now.

It seems like the price delta between "starter home" and "home we'd actually stay in for a while" is small enough now that it isn't worth having a starter home. When my wife and I were shopping a decade ago, a starter home would have cost us around $260K, and we were able to buy our forever home for a hair over 300. Given the cost (and effort) to move, it just wasn't worthwhile.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

In case you haven't noticed - There's a massive teacher shortage now, and it's going to get MUCH worse before it gets better.

Good.

The lack of respect given to one of the most important professions there is has had a big effect.

Maybe if more teachers were worthy of respect this wouldn't be an issue.

 

[luvflyin]

Good.


Maybe if more teachers were worthy of respect this wouldn't be an issue.

Lee Iacocca had something to say about that

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Good.

Yep, no need for education at all. Let's just go back to living in caves.

Seriously, what is your problem?

Maybe if more teachers were worthy of respect this wouldn't be an issue.

You either don't know very many teachers, or you know one REALLY bad one.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

You either don't know very many teachers, or you know one REALLY bad one.

I have known several very bad teachers. I have known too many self-important sphincters that have no respect for their students and treat students like un-washed beggars.

Seriously, what is your problem?

Many teachers are only employed because their customer base is mandated by law and they face little to no competition.

 

[Fiveslide]

Well, if you can find a decent lot, maybe you could buy the house (only) and have it moved.

I did the land surveying for a guy that bought five or so houses for pennies, they were to be demolished for a new interstate bypass. He bought the closest lots he could and moved all the houses to them. Most of them were moved less than a mile. We talked numbers and, if his numbers were correct, was going to net him over a half million in a few months time.

It could be a way to get a home for deep discount. I don't know how one would go about getting financing for the whole operation. My client was working with cash.

 

[Racerx]

I have known several very bad teachers. I have known too many self-important sphincters that have no respect for their students and treat students like un-washed beggars.



Many teachers are only employed because their customer base is mandated by law and they face little to no competition.

I had more than one teacher show up to school drunk... Escorted out by police never to be seen again. Which seems to be the only way they can get fired. My 4th grade teacher would leave the class unsupervised so she could take a smoke break. I had an math teacher in high school tell me when I asked how I can apply the class to real life, "you shouldn't be in this class unless you're going into a math intensive field." Lady, I need so many math credits and this is the lowest one on the totem pole. I'd have much less of a gripe with some teachers if they quit pushing their own politics and just taught the material. I can count on one hand the number of good teachers I had. One of which I absolutely hated at the time, but now realize how good he was. He taught the material, no bs.

I have friends that are teachers. When this topic comes up, I always have to preface it by saying new teachers are underpaid. However, there is no reason a gym teacher should make 136k a year plus benefits. They then notify the district 4 years before they intend to retire so their salary increases an insane percentage to get a bigger pension. My mom does payroll for a local district.

However, I can see why teachers have become disenfranchised. Some of the things they have to put up with is unacceptable. And kids have gotten worse post COVID. One parent told a friend they let their kid do what they want at home because school is so structured and he needs a break. He's the kid practicing karate moves in class. Friend won't send him to the principle because it doesn't help. Principle won't back them up. Principle is afraid of the school board who's afraid of the parent. We've rubber stamped grade promotion whether it's deserved or not.

Bring back the paddle. All problems solved. Hell. I might even sign up as a substitute.

 

[Zeldman]

Way back in 1971 is when the schools in the area where I grew up started integration, I mean busing. I had 2 ancient teachers announce that they did not sign up to teach (insert derogatory n word here). They both said, ''I have 2 years until retirement. I am just going to sit here and wait it out, then retire''. And they did. All a student had to do to pass was show up for roll call.

I am starting to see why my parents yanked me out of public school and sent me to a private military school for boys, where the paddle was NOT used sparingly.

 

[Half Fast]

The lack of respect given to one of the most important professions there is has had a big effect. Quite a few major college education departments have shut down due to lack of interest from students.

From the data I've seen, home-schooled students consistently perform 15-30 percentile points higher than those taught in traditional classrooms, they score above average on SAT/ACT exams, and they graduate college at a higher rate.

It seems to me the amateur teachers are doing a better job than the "professionals."

 

[Bob Noel]

From the data I've seen, home-schooled students consistently perform 15-30 percentile point higher than those taught in traditional classrooms, they score above average on SAT/ACT exams, and they graduate college at a higher rate.

It seems to me the amateur teachers are doing a better job than the "professionals."

however, comparing the two student populations (home-schooled vs public school) isn't quite trivial. It would be reasonable to suspect that the parents doing the home schooling might be more motivated to make sure their children learn the material and wouldn't be problem children (like some found in public school)

 

[Half Fast]

I can count on one hand the number of good teachers I had. One of which I absolutely hated at the time, but now realize how good he was. He taught the material, no bs.

I graduated from HS in 1979, so my experience is terribly outdated (or maybe not), but back then I had some truly outstanding teachers with impressive credentials, knowledge, and skill, and national recognition in several cases. However, I was in AP or accelerated classes, and those classes always got the top teachers.

I tutored students who were taking basic math, science and English classes, and many of their teachers were awful. They either didn't understand what they were teaching, or they were unable (or unwilling) to convey it, and I spent time as a tutor correcting things that should have been taught better in the first place.

Those top-notch, highly qualified folks are no longer willing to deal with public school BS. So fill the educator ranks with that latter category of rotten teachers, toss in today's student discipline problems, remove the best and brightest students and put them in private or home schools, get rid of vocational programs, and what's left in public schools is mostly a disaster.

 

[Half Fast]

however, comparing the two student populations (home-schooled vs public school) isn't quite trivial. It would be reasonable to suspect that the parents doing the home schooling might be more motivated to make sure their children learn the material and wouldn't be problem children (like some found in public school)

Yes it would. Which speaks volumes for how public schools operate, having little motivation to make sure the students learn the material and to deal with problem children.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I have known several very bad teachers. I have known too many self-important sphincters that have no respect for their students and treat students like un-washed beggars.

Many teachers are only employed because their customer base is mandated by law and they face little to no competition.

Let me guess: Small town very far from anything resembling suburbs? Or big-city school district? Those seem to be the problem areas... But shrinking the supply of good teachers isn't going to help any of them.

I had more than one teacher show up to school drunk... Escorted out by police never to be seen again. Which seems to be the only way they can get fired.

Hah... No. There's a teacher here who might be fired because she was using the same material that's been used in the particular class in question for many years, and someone decided to take offense to it and report it.

My 4th grade teacher would leave the class unsupervised so she could take a smoke break. I had an math teacher in high school tell me when I asked how I can apply the class to real life, "you shouldn't be in this class unless you're going into a math intensive field." Lady, I need so many math credits and this is the lowest one on the totem pole. I'd have much less of a gripe with some teachers if they quit pushing their own politics and just taught the material. I can count on one hand the number of good teachers I had. One of which I absolutely hated at the time, but now realize how good he was. He taught the material, no bs.

One of my better teachers fit into that sort of category, but he'd lost his job despite the union (for good reason), sued, got his job back and the principal fired, and then was pretty much untouchable... But I'm glad I was a white dude.

I have friends that are teachers. When this topic comes up, I always have to preface it by saying new teachers are underpaid. However, there is no reason a gym teacher should make 136k a year plus benefits.

There are *ZERO* teachers in our entire (very well funded) district making six figures. 136 would be the highest paid principal in the district.

From the data I've seen, home-schooled students consistently perform 15-30 percentile points higher than those taught in traditional classrooms, they score above average on SAT/ACT exams, and they graduate college at a higher rate.

It seems to me the amateur teachers are doing a better job than the "professionals."

Nope.

Take a professional and give them a class size of just a few students, and they'll do far better.

Or, give an amateur a class of 30 students that aren't related to them, including a couple with severe mental disabilities, a couple more that are so poor they haven't eaten anything since lunch yesterday, several with behavioral problems, and a spectrum that includes both ends of the bell curve so that a third of the class is either so dumb they'll never get it without a crap-ton of handholding, or so smart that they're going to be bored and start causing trouble instead, and watch that person flame out in under a week.

That's like saying "I got my ATP in a 172 and I'm better than the guy who just got assigned to the Raptor."

 

[2-Bit Speed]

Let me guess: Small town very far from anything resembling suburbs? Or big-city school district?

The lack of competition is universal.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The lack of competition is universal.

"Competition" isn't something you get by creating a shortage either.

But yes, there is competition. My wife works in a well-off suburban district, that people generally would like to work for. We get plenty of teachers from other districts - Both smaller rural districts where there's not enough funding, and from larger urban districts where there are often more challenging students to work with. Of course, we've also lost teachers to the city district for other reasons, such as a choir director going to the city's school for the performing arts, which of course none of the other districts are large enough to have.

There are literally dozens of school districts that are within an easy commute of our house, so there is definitely competition - And the highest paid teachers are the ones that keep jumping district to district, or even take a year off here and there.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

"Competition" isn't something you get by creating a shortage either.

But yes, there is competition. My wife works in a well-off suburban district, that people generally would like to work for. We get plenty of teachers from other districts - Both smaller rural districts where there's not enough funding, and from larger urban districts where there are often more challenging students to work with. Of course, we've also lost teachers to the city district for other reasons, such as a choir director going to the city's school for the performing arts, which of course none of the other districts are large enough to have.

There are literally dozens of school districts that are within an easy commute of our house, so there is definitely competition - And the highest paid teachers are the ones that keep jumping district to district, or even take a year off here and there.

You are failing to understand me.

 

[Racerx]

There are *ZERO* teachers in our entire (very well funded) district making six figures. 136 would be the highest paid principal in the district.

Maybe she needs to move to Illinois. Here's one page from the district my mom does payroll for. Some of the teachers on the list only made 16,000...probably substitutes. And a superintendent 233k with 20 vacation days plus sick days. Plus bonuses. Plus "retirement enhancements". But still included in the totals. Rough math based on total compensation says the 467 employees averaged 94k a year.

 

[Half Fast]

Take a professional and give them a class size of just a few students, and they'll do far better.

Or, give an amateur a class of 30 students that aren't related to them, including a couple with severe mental disabilities, a couple more that are so poor they haven't eaten anything since lunch yesterday, several with behavioral problems, and a spectrum that includes both ends of the bell curve so that a third of the class is either so dumb they'll never get it without a crap-ton of handholding, or so smart that they're going to be bored and start causing trouble instead, and watch that person flame out in under a week.

That's like saying "I got my ATP in a 172 and I'm better than the guy who just got assigned to the Raptor."

Oh brother.

These "professional" educators are supposedly trained and certified to provide classroom instruction. They're supposed to be adept at classroom management and at handling problem students and behavioral problems. Furthermore, they have extensive resources: classroom technology, support staff, peers for consultation, training in new techniques, counselors for problem students, etc., etc.

Yet in terms of measurable results they're getting their butts kicked by untrained stay-at-home moms teaching their kids at the kitchen table.

Your post is actually an indictment of the public school system, and certain parts of society, more than it is a defense of teachers.

 

[Racerx]

Your post is actually an indictment of the public school system, and certain parts of society, more than it is a defense of teachers.

An indictment of the public school system is the fact I was allowed to to graduate early. Only had 1 semester senior year and it included 2 study halls and gym. But I couldn't go to gym because I broke my wrist racing and had a cast from July 2nd-thanksgiving. So a 3rd study hall. I did not study. Needed to get an A on a final to pass a class because I'm not doing homework if youre only checking for completion not that's it's correct, and I've got a gear to change and carbs to re-jet in the race car for friday. I got 1 wrong on the final. Mic drop.

Popped in during wrestling practice and climbed the rope to the ceiling one handed...I probably could have gone to gym

As far as teachers go. I am sympathetic to a point. There are a lot of kids who's parents just don't give a damn. But there's also a lot of teachers who don't give a damn either.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You are failing to understand me.

Maybe you should explain it again... Or ask a teacher to teach you how to express ideas in written form more clearly.

Maybe she needs to move to Illinois. Here's one page from the district my mom does payroll for. Some of the teachers on the list only made 16,000...probably substitutes. And a superintendent 233k with 20 vacation days plus sick days. Plus bonuses. Plus "retirement enhancements". But still included in the totals. Rough math based on total compensation says the 467 employees averaged 94k a year.

View attachment 134451View attachment 134450

Is that greater Chicagoland, or is it Effingham? There's a big cost of living difference, so "Illinois" doesn't tell us much here.

These "professional" educators are supposedly trained and certified to provide classroom instruction. They're supposed to be adept at classroom management and at handling problem students and behavioral problems. Furthermore, they have extensive resources: classroom technology, support staff, peers for consultation, training in new techniques, counselors for problem students, etc., etc.

Yet in terms of measurable results they're getting their butts kicked by untrained stay-at-home moms teaching their kids at the kitchen table.

Training allows you to handle more students, but comparing a class of 30 to a class of 3, the individualized attention will ALWAYS win the day. Class sizes are an important metric for that reason.

As far as teachers go. I am sympathetic to a point. There are a lot of kids who's parents just don't give a damn. But there's also a lot of teachers who don't give a damn either.

There's a lot of *insert career here* that don't give a damn, because there's a lot of people who don't give a damn.

Some careers have people who give more of a damn than other careers. Are those the ones that we respect and pay more, or respect and pay less?

When everyone is talking trash about teachers and we pay them crap, do we expect that in the future we'll have more teachers that give a damn, or less?

 

[2-Bit Speed]

Maybe you should explain it again... Or ask a teacher to teach you how to express ideas in written form more clearly.

What part of 'government mandated customers' was unclear?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

What part of 'government mandated customers' was unclear?

Ah, I thought you meant competition for teaching positions. But now that I know what you're talking about, let's sit down for a bit of story time.

Here's what actually happens with "government mandated customers."

There are quite a few states that allow "school choice", and the ones I'm aware of all operate in a roughly similar fashion. There's a "Count Day", usually October 1st or 15th or thereabouts, where the number of students enrolled at that school is counted for funding purposes. However, outside of that day, nothing matters in terms of funding. So, you have private schools who entice students with promises of "a free iPad for every student" and the like. They do whatever they can to get as many students in the door as they can... And then once Count Day is over, they take all the difficult students (disabilities, behavior problems, underperforming) and push them out, whereupon they go back to public schools.

However, at this point, the money for these students has already gone to the private schools instead of the public schools, so now the public schools are dealing with a more difficult group of students while having less funding to do so, while the private school operators rake in the profits (and donate a portion of them to politicians who'll ensure things stay that way).

All this does is to ensure that the public schools get worse.

When you look at "government mandated customers" from the public school perspective, there's plenty they'd rather not have too, but they don't have that option. They are required to take the worst "customers" and still attempt to make them into productive citizens, which is a good thing for all of us, yet "we" fight them every step of the way.

Look, I understand that not all schools are the same. I'm not opposed to the idea of school choice, I'm opposed to the execution that allows private schools to take money away from public schools. I'm opposed to for-profit education taking my tax money and not educating the students they got funded for.

 

[Racerx]

Is that greater Chicagoland, or is it Effingham? There's a big cost of living difference, so "Illinois" doesn't tell us much here.

Far northwest Chicago suburbs, where nearly 80% of my 13k property tax bill goes to the school district.

To stay on thread topic....I wired a new 240v outlet at my mom's house for her new car after work today. The great thing about this area is they won't let you use romex. Snaking conduit sucks, but it looks neater when finished.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

Ah, I thought you meant competition for teaching positions. But now that I know what you're talking about, let's sit down for a bit of story time.

Here's what actually happens with "government mandated customers."

There are quite a few states that allow "school choice", and the ones I'm aware of all operate in a roughly similar fashion. There's a "Count Day", usually October 1st or 15th or thereabouts, where the number of students enrolled at that school is counted for funding purposes. However, outside of that day, nothing matters in terms of funding. So, you have private schools who entice students with promises of "a free iPad for every student" and the like. They do whatever they can to get as many students in the door as they can... And then once Count Day is over, they take all the difficult students (disabilities, behavior problems, underperforming) and push them out, whereupon they go back to public schools.

However, at this point, the money for these students has already gone to the private schools instead of the public schools, so now the public schools are dealing with a more difficult group of students while having less funding to do so, while the private school operators rake in the profits (and donate a portion of them to politicians who'll ensure things stay that way).

All this does is to ensure that the public schools get worse.

When you look at "government mandated customers" from the public school perspective, there's plenty they'd rather not have too, but they don't have that option. They are required to take the worst "customers" and still attempt to make them into productive citizens, which is a good thing for all of us, yet "we" fight them every step of the way.

Look, I understand that not all schools are the same. I'm not opposed to the idea of school choice, I'm opposed to the execution that allows private schools to take money away from public schools. I'm opposed to for-profit education taking my tax money and not educating the students they got funded for.

All of which is to say that public schools are spending more money per student per year than charter schools but getting worse results. I'm not sure how that's an argument in favor of public schools.

 

[Bob Noel]

All of which is to say that public schools are spending more money per student per year than charter schools but getting worse results. I'm not sure how that's an argument in favor of public schools.

When a school can pick and chose which students it allows to enroll, it can certainly use that to ensure more successful outcomes. I'm not saying that charter schools are doing that, but...

Consider MIT. If everyone was allowed to go to MIT regardless of ability, would the MIT graduation rate change?

another way to look at it: sometimes people look at hospitals and/or doctors success rate for treating patients. Well, a doctor can game the system by only taking patients with a good chance of surviving a procedure.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

When a school can pick and chose which students it allows to enroll, it can certainly use that to ensure more successful outcomes. I'm not saying that charter schools are doing that, but...

Most charter schools are doing exactly not that. Many use a lottery system since they have more applicants than they have openings, meaning they are not choosing their students in any way.

 

[Bob Noel]

Most charter schools are doing exactly not that. Many use a lottery system since they have more applicants than they have openings, meaning they are not choosing their students in any way.

ok.

But, I think it's fair to say that the parents/students that "win" the selection lottery are probably more motivated than the average public shool parents/students.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

ok.

But, I think it's fair to say that the parents/students that "win" the selection lottery are probably more motivated than the average public school parents/students.

More motivated than the parents that applied and lost due to lottery? Whose kids end up in public school because of a bad lottery pull?