Hey - take a look at KAXS. Whom, if anyone do I hafta talk to?

D

docmirror

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Cowboy - yeehah!
So, I get it's a TRSA, I get it's an uncontrolled, but the CFI says you gotta talk to Altus. I say no, cause the note; "class D excluded below 2500'". So, if I was to stay at 2234' pattern and stay in that box area to the west of KLTS, I can go nordo if I want.

Yes? No? Op-ed? :D
 
You can do whatever you want, or you could just call up altus approach and get flight following.
 
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Here are a couple of pictures that might help. It looks like the military airbase doesn't want to deal with the non-controlled airfields so they did a cut out. You do not need to talk to anyone to get to KAXS, but make sure you don't cross the line ;)

quzezena.jpg


udamy5a3.jpg



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Correct. That area is is just like a class B/C shelf. It goes from 2500 up to 3900.

Your CFI is wrong. Do you need to talk to approach when under a B/C shelf? No.
(yeah, yeah, someone will chime in with "you do if it's IMC blah blah blah" if that someone is you STFU)


(not you doc, the generic you)
 
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What I thought. I think he got confused with that blue dotted line circle that encloses KAXS. I'm going in low over the town, and out the west side.
 
More importantly, why would anyone want to go to Altus. I've spent a lot of time in Altus and I certainly don't want to go back.

One can only assume that you have to go to Altus!

:)
 
I would also check the notam ,on operating times of the class D.
 
timwinters said:
More importantly, why would anyone want to go to Altus. I've spent a lot of time in Altus and I certainly don't want to go back.

One can only assume that you have to go to Altus!

:)
Click to expand...

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frfly172 said:
I would also check the notam ,on operating times of the class D.
Click to expand...

Not planning to go into the D. Staying below 2500 and to the west of the blue line barrier. I don't care what their hours are.
 
Welcome to another installment of "Legal vs Safe"! To answer the original question, do you have to talk to Altus approach if you are VFR and are in the shelf beneath the controlled airspace? No, as stated above. This is backed up by the base's regulations.

But here is the big question: is it safe to do so? And a bit of my bias may come out here, but that answer is NO! I'll preface the following with this statement that I have very recently flown in that area (as in within the past couple days recent). In the local flying area, you've got multiple KC-135s and C-17s doing pattern work, including tactical departures/arrivals that go to/from the west of town. The base's VFR pattern is at 2900'. As shown in the document linked (and echoed in the in-flight guide the base pilots carry), overflight of AXS is prohibited and aircraft have to stay east of Park Lane. At night it gets even crazier with the introduction of NVG flying as well. The number of operations per day according to Airnav is 187. And that doesn't even take into account aircraft from Vance AFB and Sheppard AFB that terrorize the local airspace either.

I have never quite understood why some GA flyers (not saying you are one of them random) have such a disdain about talking to anyone on the radio. To get off my soapbox, it takes a minimum amount of effort to talk to ATC, and it can quite literally save your life at locations like this.
 
boilert said:
base's regulations.



I have never quite understood why some GA flyers (not saying you are one of them random) have such a disdain about talking to anyone on the radio. To get off my soapbox, it takes a minimum amount of effort to talk to ATC, and it can quite literally save your life at locations like this.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the link to the base regs.

Your lack of understanding doesn't really bother me much.
 
boilert said:
Welcome to another installment of "Legal vs Safe"! To answer the original question, do you have to talk to Altus approach if you are VFR and are in the shelf beneath the controlled airspace? No, as stated above. This is backed up by the base's regulations.



But here is the big question: is it safe to do so? And a bit of my bias may come out here, but that answer is NO! I'll preface the following with this statement that I have very recently flown in that area (as in within the past couple days recent). In the local flying area, you've got multiple KC-135s and C-17s doing pattern work, including tactical departures/arrivals that go to/from the west of town. The base's VFR pattern is at 2900'. As shown in the document linked (and echoed in the in-flight guide the base pilots carry), overflight of AXS is prohibited and aircraft have to stay east of Park Lane. At night it gets even crazier with the introduction of NVG flying as well. The number of operations per day according to Airnav is 187. And that doesn't even take into account aircraft from Vance AFB and Sheppard AFB that terrorize the local airspace either.



I have never quite understood why some GA flyers (not saying you are one of them random) have such a disdain about talking to anyone on the radio. To get off my soapbox, it takes a minimum amount of effort to talk to ATC, and it can quite literally save your life at locations like this.
Click to expand...


I have a hard time understanding why, if the traffic is that intense in the area, why did they make a cut out of the class D?
 
Marauder said:
I have a hard time understanding why, if the traffic is that intense in the area, why did they make a cut out of the class D?
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The traffic shouldn't be that heavy if it's just a delta. Also the secondary airports are off to the side of the primary airport.

There are lots of charlie and bravo airspace with similar cut outs and, in theory at least, they carry far more traffic than any delta.
 
boilert said:
Welcome to another installment of "Legal vs Safe"! To answer the original question, do you have to talk to Altus approach if you are VFR and are in the shelf beneath the controlled airspace? No, as stated above. This is backed up by the base's regulations.

But here is the big question: is it safe to do so? And a bit of my bias may come out here, but that answer is NO! I'll preface the following with this statement that I have very recently flown in that area (as in within the past couple days recent). In the local flying area, you've got multiple KC-135s and C-17s doing pattern work, including tactical departures/arrivals that go to/from the west of town. The base's VFR pattern is at 2900'. As shown in the document linked (and echoed in the in-flight guide the base pilots carry), overflight of AXS is prohibited and aircraft have to stay east of Park Lane. At night it gets even crazier with the introduction of NVG flying as well. The number of operations per day according to Airnav is 187. And that doesn't even take into account aircraft from Vance AFB and Sheppard AFB that terrorize the local airspace either.

I have never quite understood why some GA flyers (not saying you are one of them random) have such a disdain about talking to anyone on the radio. To get off my soapbox, it takes a minimum amount of effort to talk to ATC, and it can quite literally save your life at locations like this.
Click to expand...

I'm not in the military and not landing at the base, so frankly I don't care what base regulations are.

I have no legal obligation to talk to anybody in the TRSA outside of the class D.

Realistically? When I was active I used flight following as much as possible. The only time I did not was when I was below radar coverage (somewhat rare) or I was denied by ATC (very rare). I would be talking to approach as I approached the area.

But am I obligated to? Not at all.
 
Marauder said:
I have a hard time understanding why, if the traffic is that intense in the area, why did they make a cut out of the class D?
Click to expand...

Because military controllers don't want to be bothered with the civilian stuff down low. The volume might require increased staffing, or distract from their primary mission of supporting USAF traffic.

Just make a cutout.. AF stays one side, civvies do their own thing.
 
Flying out of KEDN (Enterprise, AL), the area is crazy busy with rotor wing traffic. If you look at a map, you don't -need- to talk to anyone, but I usually get flight following so I wanted to call up Cairns Approach. It was busy enough I had to wait, and some of that was warnings to military guys about the aircraft departing Enterprise, climbing through 1200, northbound. Me. :) As busy as they were, they seemed happy to talk to me, and immediately started vectoring me around other traffic. That may be an argument against flight following for some, but in that environment especially, I didn't mind at all.

The Altus TRSA seems to be a big "please talk to us" sign. You don't have to, but why would they put that there? They could have gone with just a class D. Instead, there's this big area in which you can (but don't have to) get traffic advisories.
 
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Looking at more of the comments...did anyone actually *look* at the chart? I mean really look at it.
 
Yep, carefully. Which is why I posed the question, and got the answer.
 
I'm wondering if anyone else noticed that the TRSA is also cutout to match the class D cutout.

"Talk to the AFB!!!!"

"Uh, yeah, they don't provide services in that area."

"Well, um, I have to go on a safety rant!!!!"
 
Mistake Not... said:
Flying out of KEDN (Enterprise, AL), the area is crazy busy with rotor wing traffic. If you look at a map, you don't -need- to talk to anyone, but I usually get flight following so I wanted to call up Cairns Approach. It was busy enough I had to wait, and some of that was warnings to military guys about the aircraft departing Enterprise, climbing through 1200, northbound. Me. :) As busy as they were, they seemed happy to talk to me, and immediately started vectoring me around other traffic. That may be an argument against flight following for some, but in that environment especially, I didn't mind at all.

The Altus TRSA seems to be a big "please talk to us" sign. You don't have to, but why would they put that there? They could have gone with just a class D. Instead, there's this big area in which you can (but don't have to) get traffic advisories.
Click to expand...
Talk to them all the time, picking up clearances going North. They welcome the chance to break the boredom . As has been most of my xperience talking to the military.
 
EdFred said:
I'm wondering if anyone else noticed that the TRSA is also cutout to match the class D cutout.

"Talk to the AFB!!!!"

"Uh, yeah, they don't provide services in that area."

"Well, um, I have to go on a safety rant!!!!"
Click to expand...

Approach and flight following services are.

Class D/Tower is not.
 
docmirror said:
So, I get it's a TRSA, I get it's an uncontrolled, but the CFI says you gotta talk to Altus. I say no, cause the note; "class D excluded below 2500'". So, if I was to stay at 2234' pattern and stay in that box area to the west of KLTS, I can go nordo if I want.

Yes? No? Op-ed? :D
Click to expand...

Yes. It's excluded from the TRSA as well.
 
Ok, I looked at the chart. I see it, I understand the symbols. What I don't understand is the somewhat cryptic hint EdFred's dropped.

So let's list what I think I know:

* KAXS is not in the TRSA (floor above it is at 2500)
* KAXS is not in the class D, due to notation "Class D excluded below 2500' MSL" (which shows up much better on skyvector).

Traffic going to and from KAXS and not passing through any other controlled airspace, is not obligated to talk to anyone.

As to why the "TRSA is cut out as well", no idea. But I'd bet that if you departed KAXS, called them up and requested traffic advisories, you'd get 'em, right? I'd get traffic advisories from a class C, even if I'm not contained within the airspace. I can't see that a TRSA is any different, but then that's why I'm asking... what's different.

Basically, you don't hafta, you could if you want.

From the AIM:

3-5-6. Terminal Radar Service Area (TRSA)

c. Participation. Pilots operating under VFR are encouraged to contact the radar approach control and avail themselves of the TRSA Services. However, participation is voluntary on the part of the pilot. See Chapter 4, Air Traffic Control, for details and procedures.


 
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