Her's an interesting approach

Alan said:
I did this one about a year ago and was disappointed in my execution. We got in OK with no tense moments, but I could have flown it better.
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My principal comment is that the Procedure turn is doen at 6,0000. If you're airspeed is high (as in 421 going 120 kts) you really only have a one minute outbound, and then the turn. That leaves 100 seconds to get down from 6000 to 4000. I'd put the gear out on the 343 degree leg of the turn and get it dirty. Think of the final approach course really beginning outside of EBALY intersection.

If you get fast on the descent, it gets to be a problem....:-0
 
bbchien said:
My principal comment is that the Procedure turn is doen at 6,0000. If you're airspeed is high (as in 421 going 120 kts) you really only have a one minute outbound, and then the turn. That leaves 100 seconds to get down from 6000 to 4000. I'd put the gear out on the 343 degree leg of the turn and get it dirty. Think of the final approach course really beginning outside of EBALY intersection.

If you get fast on the descent, it gets to be a problem....:-0
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Well, there's no reason it has to be one minute. The aircraft is required to remain within 10nm of WEPSY; therefore at 140 knots ground speed, the pilot could pass WEPSY outbound, wait a couple of minutes (about 4.5nm), then make the procedure turn (another two miles for the outbound, and another mile for the 180 degree turn inbound to be on the conservative side.) This would leave at least a two mile buffer for higher outbound groundspeeds due to winds.

This would require only a moderate descent rate to reach WEPSY at 4,000 feet.
 
Your PT segment gives you a fairly narrow window. The chart obviously depicts the PT past Ebaly, which is 4 NM from the start point of the outbound time, Wepsy. So you need to turn after Ebaly, with enough time to get back inbound and down to 4800 at Ebaly, without busting the 10 NM from Wepsy limit. I would think that you would want at least a mile past ebaly, in a slower plane, before turning left and then right back onto the course. Maybe two miles on second thought. That means starting the actual PT outbound at 6 miles of the 10 mile protected airspace.

Overall, starting the timer for the PT at Wepsy makes this a bit different in that you start your procedure turn clock a long way away from the airport. This is different than most of the procedure turn VOR approaches that I have done, where you start the PT outbound timing at the VOR. Like Bruce said, with a fast plane you gotta scrub altitude in a short span. OTOH, in a slower plane, like the skyhawk that I fly, you are a LONG way from the airport when you turn around. As much as 12 or 13 miles. This is a long trip back, at a fairly divergent angle from the runway (208.5 versus runway 22).

I would think that narrow window for the PT would keep you on your toes. My worry would be busting the 10 NM protective ring.

Jim G
 
grattonja said:
Your PT segment gives you a fairly narrow window. The chart obviously depicts the PT past Ebaly,
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Nope. It depicts it outside of WEPSY. In fact, EBALY isn't even an IAF; it's just a stepdown fix. There's nothing preventing the pilot from beginning the PT immediately after crossing WEPSY outbound, if he/she so desires. The only restriction is remaining at 6,000 feet while you're outbound. What's confusing you is the fact that the PT barb is depicted north of EBALY on the plan view; but that's not the literal location of where the PT must occur. It's simply a notation showing you which side of the FAC the PT must be initiated. Look at the profile view; the diagonal, descending outbound line (028 degrees) begins at WEPSY.

I would think that narrow window for the PT would keep you on your toes. My worry would be busting the 10 NM protective ring.
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Maybe at 180 knots or so, but 140 or less... hmm. Well, it's a decision that's up to the style and comfort level of the individual pilot. Any way you want to handle the PT, so long as you remain within protected airspace, is fine.

Have fun!

-Ryan
 
Ryan Ferguson said:
Nope. It depicts it outside of WEPSY. In fact, EBALY isn't even an IAF; it's just a stepdown fix. There's nothing preventing the pilot from beginning the PT immediately after crossing WEPSY outbound, if he/she so desires. The only restriction is remaining at 6,000 feet while you're outbound. What's confusing you is the fact that the PT barb is depicted north of EBALY on the plan view; but that's not the literal location of where the PT must occur. It's simply a notation showing you which side of the FAC the PT must be initiated. Look at the profile view; the diagonal, descending outbound line (028 degrees) begins at WEPSY.



Maybe at 180 knots or so, but 140 or less... hmm. Well, it's a decision that's up to the style and comfort level of the individual pilot. Any way you want to handle the PT, so long as you remain within protected airspace, is fine.

Have fun!

-Ryan
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I am not confused, I don't think. I understand that, theoretically, you could begin the PT as long as you are outside Wepsy. But, pratically, if you want to meet that step-down fix at Ebaly, you gotta wait until past Ebaly to make the turn, or, at a minimum, you are going to be a very busy camper inbound on the PT. And you are going to have to dump a lot of altitude in a hurry. I figure the barb is depicted outside of Ebaly for a reason, and that reason is that, pratically, you are going to want to wait until after Ebaly to make the PT. You want to be descending from 6K in the PT, with an eye towards hitting 4800 at Ebaly, somewhere inbound. And, if you follow those criteria, then you have a fairly narrow window to start and complete that PT within 10.

Jim G
 
grattonja said:
I am not confused, I don't think. I understand that, theoretically, you could begin the PT as long as you are outside Wepsy. But, pratically, if you want to meet that step-down fix at Ebaly, you gotta wait until past Ebaly to make the turn, or, at a minimum, you are going to be a very busy camper inbound on the PT.
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You could certainly elect to wait until EBALY before making the PT. But there is no requirement for that, and your original statement appeared to indicate your belief that the pilot must wait until EBALY before beginning the PT. I probably wouldn't, but I'm usually in a hurry. :)

And you are going to have to dump a lot of altitude in a hurry. I figure the barb is depicted outside of Ebaly for a reason, and that reason is that, pratically, you are going to want to wait until after Ebaly to make the PT.
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That's not the reason. The reason is, it's standard notation for FAA terminal procedures. Nothing more, nothing less.

You want to be descending from 6K in the PT, with an eye towards hitting 4800 at Ebaly, somewhere inbound. And, if you follow those criteria, then you have a fairly narrow window to start and complete that PT within 10.
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You do understand that 4800 is a minimum altitude, not a 'hard' (mandatory) altitude? You needn't be at 4800 right at EBALY except by personal choice.

EBALY exists solely to prevent a descent below 4,800 feet on the FAC, outside of 9.2 DME from the LWB VOR. This would be true whether you were flying the full procedure (with procedure turn) or vectored onto final outside of EBALY. In essence, it has nothing to do with the procedure turn, in terms of how the approach is depicted on the plate. You can, however, use the fix for whatever other purposes you desire.

-Ryan
 
One should never post until one's thoughts are fully in order. Guilty on that one.

My original post did make it sound like Ebaly is a mandatory point of passage prior to starting the PT. Which it is not and I know that.

When I look at this plate, I look in terms of flying it as shown, intending to meet the altitudes at the points where they are given. I.E. flying the approach as close to exactly as it is laid out. Looking at it that way then, what I set forth as opinions (and they are that only) are based on flying the plate, basically exactly. Obviously, this is not required. You do not have to absolutely get down to 4800 feet at Ebaly. You could certainly stay higher, and even be above 4000 at Wepsy. These are floors, and despite the fact that my post may not have sounded it, I do know that.

I am still new enough to the IR world to look at a plate as something that I want to fly exactly. I am always afraid that, if I don't get down to the recommended floor at the recommended waypoint, that I will remain too high and be unable to get down within the required time. IOW, I will not get down to 2760 before MAP. So I still look at the plate as something to be flown as shown.

In this case, it appears to me that the intent is to get out past Ebaly before turning, so as to be able to come down to 4800 by Ebaly coming back in. You would not have to do that. But, then you would still be starting the PT at 6K feet, and you would probably have to be seriously considering getting the aircraft down to 4000 feet inbound, as you would then be looking at Wepsy as your altitude.

I do understand that you do not need to use Ebaly. Nor do you HAVE to get the plane down to 4K by Wepsy either. But... You will have a pretty steep final descent to 2760 if you don't get to 4K by Wepsy. You are already at 3.06 if you do follow the chart. So that 4800 foot step down fix is something that I would want to hit coming back in, or at the very end of the PT. Although not a mandatory number, obviously the designers put some thought into that altitude. Besides, I remain of the school that says that the sooner you get down to an altitude as permitted on a non-precision approach, the better to get below the clouds and see the airport.

And I continue to believe that, if you wait until clearly past ebaly before making your PT, then you are closer to the 10 NM protected ring than you would be if you started your time out for the PT from the VOR, as in some other approaches that I have flown. If you follow this plate to the letter, I still think it leaves you with a fairly narrow window upon which to make the PT. IMO again.

Jim G
 
Everybody's talking about the PT... so I'll open a new thought on this approach, at the OTHER end of it:

The VOR is on the field (with the MAP at 0.1 DME), so the needle will get REEAAAALLY twitchy as you get close in... be sure you don't "chase the needle"... continue flying whatever heading was working earlier in the approach (assuming you got it nice and stable, which you should have).
 
Troy Whistman said:
Everybody's talking about the PT... so I'll open a new thought on this approach, at the OTHER end of it:

The VOR is on the field (with the MAP at 0.1 DME), so the needle will get REEAAAALLY twitchy as you get close in... be sure you don't "chase the needle"... continue flying whatever heading was working earlier in the approach (assuming you got it nice and stable, which you should have).
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Gotta agree with you there. Although, I find, by the time the needle gets really hyper, I either have or don't have the field. I hope to know more or less by then whether it is miss or land.

Jim G
 
Since we have only 4nm from EBALY to WEPSY, and have to descend from 6000 to 4000 after intercepting the FAC but prior to WEPSY (OK, don't HAVE to, but would want to to help ensure a soundly stable descent to MDA), seems to me that Bruce's suggestion- get dirty and reasonably slowed on the PT outbound, thus reduce likelihood of going outside protected space and also be ready for nice, gentle turn to FAC on the inbound, thus ready for nice leisurely descent to 4000. Assuming we managed the rest of our flight properly (got plenty -o- fuel and no other crises), what's the big rush?

In any event, really need to go past EBALY outbound to achieve that result.
 
bbchien said:
My principal comment is that the Procedure turn is doen at 6,0000. If you're airspeed is high (as in 421 going 120 kts) you really only have a one minute outbound, and then the turn. That leaves 100 seconds to get down from 6000 to 4000. I'd put the gear out on the 343 degree leg of the turn and get it dirty. Think of the final approach course really beginning outside of EBALY intersection.

If you get fast on the descent, it gets to be a problem....:-0
Click to expand...

That was my complaint with my execution on the approach last year. I was too high.

I had a couple with me who were new to GA flying and I wanted to keep the descent as smooth as possible. I had good ceilings, but when I broke out, I was high and close. We made it in with no heroics, but I wish I'd done a better job. My son, Garrett, was copilot and we both commented on the steep descent required.
 
We need Todd (I think this airport is in his sector). I got vectors and I think I got a pretty close turn and at 6,000, but I'm not sure. Radar coverage is pretty good here (probably since the bunker at Greenbrier was to be used by the top politicians in the event of a national emergency), but I recall being held high until time to get down NOW!

I'll be going back in there next week. Whe we went three years ago we followed "Justice One". When we landed thee was a 727 surrounded by armed guards unloading prisoners. Interesting...
 
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