Helping yourself to fuel.

Please cite where I said that.

You didn't say that, I did. :lol:

I was hoping you would notice that I was leading to a lot of folks do not do a post flight fuel checks at an intermediate stop if that person did their pre-flight fuel calculations and fueled for the round robin.


If you cannot see a five-gallon difference on a fuel gauge for a tank of ~30 gallons, might be time for glasses.

Or time to get those gauges fixed. (gauges aren't always accurate, I never trust them)

I suggest you learn how to figure it out.

I had dispatchers to do that. All I had to do was confirm their math and make adjustments according to load or weather.
 
Are locking gas caps that are compatible so hard to make? Especially for those with tabs, all you would need is lock the tab.
Wouldn’t do much to prevent stealing the gas. Just makes the honest thieves pay cash rather than replace it.
 
Fair point, but why would anyone bother to mess with a siphon when every airplane has readily accessible gravity fed drains?
Because drains are very slow at draining ten gallons of fuel.
 
Because drains are very slow at draining ten gallons of fuel.
I’ve seen guys try to suck it out the top on a Baron. Fiddle-farted away half an hour before they got out the buckets and drained through the drains in less time.

I think that might’ve been the crew that asked me how much a 5-gallon bucket held. :rolleyes:
 
Because drains are very slow at draining ten gallons of fuel.
That might be true. But your premise requires that the perpetrator has done this often enough to know that its faster to go digging in a random dumpster to find a hose/tube that may or may not be there and then use said hose/tube to siphon fuel from the top of the tank knowing full well that tank has a gravity fed sump drain that will work no matter what even if it takes a few minutes longer in the long run.

Do you really want to place your bet on that horse in this race?

And of course all of this assumes the original post was valid and not BS created by a troll.
 
I had dispatchers to do that. All I had to do was confirm their math and make adjustments according to load or weather.

You have people for that. Gotcha. :goofy:

It would appear we are in violent agreement here... :biggrin:
 
If it were my car or pickup, it would be okay under emergency circumstances. With an airplane, however, fuel problems can end up killing you or causing lots of hassle getting it out of a field. Although the chance of something going wrong is remote, the Potential consequences involved if something DID go wrong are too great. At my home airport I trust the guys enough to fill my plane in the hangar, but even then, I follow up with looking into the tanks and drawing fuel samples. The thought of a total stranger messing with my fuel is just not something I want to add to the long list of things that can go wrong. I don’t care if they paid me four or ten gallons for one, the money is not the issue. My fuel and tanks were tampered with and it was not authorized by me. I would never do something like that to someone else’s plane except under absolutely dire circumstances.

Now, with that said, in the OP there was not a lot of explanation offered about the circumstances. If I had been such a jerk that I left my plane blocking the pump then went off and left it, then the person leaving the money maybe was too kind. We probably need to know more circumstantial details.
 
Fair point, but why would anyone bother to mess with a siphon when every airplane has readily accessible gravity fed drains?

Because in some cases it could take A long time to drain that much fuel with the drain that was designed to take a fuel sample.
 
You guys have working fuel gauges in your planes?
 
Saw this on another forum and had to share. Pilot says he and his wife returned to his plane to head home and found an envelope with cash and a note on the glare shield. Apparently another pilot took 10 gallons of fuel from his plane and left double what that would cost. I guess because fuel wasn't available when he was leaving.

Instead of taking fuel, what if the guy had taken your airplane, flew it somewhere, and left money for it? It is still theft.
 
No it's not theft because your loss was more than compensated. Maybe if you are stranded somewhere and desperately need help and everybody says says "not my problem" you would learn a lesson. Does anybody think a jury would punish that person?
 
No it's not theft because your loss was more than compensated. Maybe if you are stranded somewhere and desperately need help and everybody says says "not my problem" you would learn a lesson. Does anybody think a jury would punish that person?
Do you have a reference to the definition of “theft” that in any way discusses “compensation”?
 
I think that might’ve been the crew that asked me how much a 5-gallon bucket held. :rolleyes:

I was working for an auto parts store many years ago. We had an red headed manager that was quite attractive. I had gone to lunch one day and returned with a Burger King bag in my hand (I haven't eaten BK for over 30 years). She looked at the bag and asked where I got it. Told her that Wal-mart was having a sale on them ...;)
 
No it's not theft because your loss was more than compensated. Maybe if you are stranded somewhere and desperately need help and everybody says says "not my problem" you would learn a lesson. Does anybody think a jury would punish that person?

When you take something that is not yours without permission you are stealing. That's what thieves do. I get what you are trying to say and I understand (as I was taught in business administration) that "tough times call for tough measures" but that does not excuse anyone taking things that do not belong to them without permission.

I might be more understanding if I had a can of fuel that was taken and compensated for. But stealing fuel out of the tank of my airplane is not something I'm gonna take lightly. The perpetrator should hope they get a jury and not the owner to deal with if they get caught.
 
Who carries around a bucket and grounding strap (they did remember to ground the plane to the bucket, right?). My drains are over the wheel pants too so it won't just fall into a bucket.
 
Just a couple months ago the self-serve apparatus used at hundreds of airports went out of service nationwide.* I landed at Hattiesburg MS, and the Unicom operator asked if I was going to the self serve or wanted fuel from the truck. We both learned at the same moment that his self-serve didn't work, even though it did for the last plane within the hour. Fortunately, this airport did have a truck, and the manager gave me the SS price. No matter how much preflight planning you do, sometime this stuff happens.

That being said, I don't think it's ever ok to take fuel, or anything else, from someone else's airplane without permission. I would drive to another airport with some portable tanks before I touched another airplane.

*https://www.avweb.com/ownership/fuel-news/qtpod-self-serve-fuel-terminals-back-up-after-outage/

Jon
 
I believe that could be considered a federal crime - theft or tampering. Either way it's ugly...
 
Translation: "fuel was not available when I wanted to leave, so rather than wait, I made it your problem. Hopefully fuel will be available when you want to leave, but I do not know that. Here is a nominal amount of extra money to soothe my conscience and defend me from charges of theft."
 
Under no civilized circumstances is it ok for anyone to remove fuel from my aircraft without my knowledge and permission

@EdFred I’m more than willing to help if you ask. You touch my ride without permission and we are not friends.
 
I guess I am just nicer than a lot of you. A pilot would only pay double for fuel if he had no other reasonable choice and no way to contact you.

So you are lost in the desert. Two days without water. You come upon a locked house with water and nobody home. Of course you would never break a window to get water. A crime is a crime and no excuses. Paying double for the broken window does not excuse the terrible crime.
 
Wasn’t there a fuel exhaustion fatal accident about 10 years ago where the pilot siphoned fuel out of an airplane and tried to fly to the next airport? Can’t find it, but fairly certain I remember it.
 
No it's not theft because your loss was more than compensated. Maybe if you are stranded somewhere and desperately need help and everybody says says "not my problem" you would learn a lesson. Does anybody think a jury would punish that person?

If I were stranded like that, I would simply wait it out, or walk to the next town and ask for help rather than siphoning off someone elses fuel. If it were a true emergency and was transporting someone in critical condition, I would call 911. It still brings into question how you ended up at an airport with empty fuel tanks in the airplane.
 
It still brings into question how you ended up at an airport with empty fuel tanks in the airplane.

Perhaps the thieving pilot was also a victim of theft and they were just paying it forward... :D
 
The longer this goes on, the more I'm inclined to think it never happened and someone was simply bored and wanting to start an argument on the internet.
 
The longer this goes on, the more I'm inclined to think it never happened and someone was simply bored and wanting to start an argument on the internet.

Someone would go to that much trouble to start an argument?
 
I guess I am just nicer than a lot of you. A pilot would only pay double for fuel if he had no other reasonable choice and no way to contact you.

So you are lost in the desert. Two days without water. You come upon a locked house with water and nobody home. Of course you would never break a window to get water. A crime is a crime and no excuses. Paying double for the broken window does not excuse the terrible crime.
Not the same situation. You really think it was life or death for the pilot leaving the cash? The scenario we are presented with is the gas taker is to self important to fix his own **** up in a reasonable manner. Nothing in the scenario is life or death except for the now unknown impact on the fuel system/status of the guys airplane that has a pocket full of cash and less fuel in his tank.

if you chose to be ok with this scenario that’s fine. I wouldn’t question your judgment but I’m not an asshollllee for having a problem with the situation.
 
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Wasn’t there a fuel exhaustion fatal accident about 10 years ago where the pilot siphoned fuel out of an airplane and tried to fly to the next airport?

You may be thinking of the fatal accident linked below, which occurred on New Year's Day at JOT in 2009. They did "borrow/steal" fuel from another airplane at the airport (leaving some money and a note), but there's some question as to how much fuel was actually taken.

The NTSB was unable to define a probable cause, but fuel exhaustion isn't mentioned. Among other factors, they cited, "...the pilot’s failure to maintain adequate flying speed during the night takeoff for undetermined reasons, which resulted in an inadvertent aerodynamic stall and subsequent loss of control" They noted that, among other things, the airplane was slightly over gross weight and slightly beyond the aft CG limit... plus there may have been frost on the airplane.

Details here: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...ID=20090102X02015&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA
 
If I were stranded like that, I would simply wait it out, or walk to the next town and ask for help rather than siphoning off someone elses fuel. If it were a true emergency and was transporting someone in critical condition, I would call 911. It still brings into question how you ended up at an airport with empty fuel tanks in the airplane.
Easy to say because you are not faced with the situation. Wait it out if the small airport no longer sells fuel? If I have half tanks of fuel or more you can take it and pay no problem. I guess we see things differently in the rural Mountain West where helping out someone is considered something you just do as an moral obligation. Many people here have helped me in an emergency and I plan on helping others. I find some replies is depressing for me. We Americans are so smug as to how wonderful we are. My opinion has just fallen a lot.
 
Easy to say because you are not faced with the situation. Wait it out if the small airport no longer sells fuel? If I have half tanks of fuel or more you can take it and pay no problem. I guess we see things differently in the rural Mountain West where helping out someone is considered something you just do as an moral obligation. Many people here have helped me in an emergency and I plan on helping others. I find some replies is depressing for me. We Americans are so smug as to how wonderful we are. My opinion has just fallen a lot.
Are you referencing my posts ?
 
Saw this on another forum and had to share. Pilot says he and his wife returned to his plane to head home and found an envelope with cash and a note on the glare shield. Apparently another pilot took 10 gallons of fuel from his plane and left double what that would cost. I guess because fuel wasn't available when he was leaving.
That note would need to also say a very compelling reason for the emergency departure for me not to lose my cool. i.e. My wife is in labor, kid is in the hospital, etc. In which case I wouldn’t even care if they paid. I don’t even let pro’s fuel the plane without me being there.
 
So the chap who pilfered the fuel is now on his way. The person who "donated" the fuel now is stuck without enough fuel to get to someplace with fuel. :D
 
I don’t even let pro’s fuel the plane without me being there.

I don't let anyone fuel my plane but me. No one has ever given me any grief about that at all. I might let a line person fuel it while I was there instructing as my filler will splash back if not fueled correctly.
 
helping out someone is considered something you just do as an moral obligation.
Years ago nobody would have even thought twice about helping someone like this. It would have been automatic. Today, many people seem to want to crucify the "fuel buyer" without ever even knowing the full story. I would hope that if someone "borrowed/bought" fuel out of my plane, I would be glad to have been able to help them out. The fact that he paid double for fuel tells me that he felt a little bad for what he thought he had to do in his circumstance, whatever it was. He could have just stolen the fuel after all. There was a time when we looked to help out our fellow man. Not so much anymore, I guess. When my wife and I were coming home from the Bahama's in our Cherokee, on our second to last leg, we had much stronger than forecast headwinds, and I didn't think i could get to my intended final fuel stop. I made the decision to stop short at an airport that had self serve fuel in Northeast Louisiana. It was late on a Sunday afternoon, the weekend after Thanksgiving. It had been a long and trip, we were both a tired, and we were trying to get home before a massive cold front arrived in Kansas. The problem was that when we landed and taxied to the pump, there was a note on the cardtrol that said that the credit card reader was not working, and only the local smart card reader was allowing for fuel to be dispensed. I didn't know what to do. About that time, a local came up to confirm that the credit card reader did not work. I asked him if he had a smart card. He informed me that he did. I asked if I could buy a few gallons of gas to get me to the next airport, however, all I had to pay him with was a check. He declined. My wife and I were not angry at him, just very disappointed and very very sad. I lost a lot of faith in humanity that day. He was so worried that a 30 dollar check was going to bounce I guess, and to him, helping a fellow pilot out in his time of need was just not worth the risk. When all we can think about is ourselves, we all die a little. In today's world, I guess the Golden Rule no longer applies.
 
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Is it not obvious that there is a difference between helping someone out and someone helping themselves?

And let's get some perspective, there are very few circumstances where it is absolutely imperative to depart. So important that you steal from someone else.
 
So important that you steal from someone else.
I have had a number of things stolen from me in my life. In not a single instance did the thief leave a note and leave double the amount of money the item was worth.
 
Years ago nobody would have even thought twice about helping someone like this. It would have been automatic. Today, many people seem to want to crucify the "fuel buyer" without ever even knowing the full story. I would hope that if someone "borrowed/bought" fuel out of my plane, I would be glad to have been able to help them out. The fact that he paid double for fuel tells me that he felt a little bad for what he thought he had to do in his circumstance, whatever it was. He could have just stolen the fuel after all. There was a time when we looked to help out our fellow man. Not so much anymore, I guess. When my wife and I were coming home from the Bahama's in our Cherokee, on our second to last leg, we had much stronger than forecast headwinds, and I didn't think i could get to my intended final fuel stop. I made the decision to stop short at an airport that had self serve fuel in Northeast Louisiana. It was late on a Sunday afternoon, the weekend after Thanksgiving. It had been a long and trip, we were both a tired, and we were trying to get home before a massive cold front arrived in Kansas. The problem was that when we landed and taxied to the pump, there was a note on the cardtrol that said that the credit card reader was not working, and only the local smart card reader was allowing for fuel to be dispensed. I didn't know what to do. About that time, a local came up to confirm that the credit card reader did not work. I asked him if he had a smart card. He informed me that he did. I asked if I could buy a few gallons of gas to get me to the next airport, however, all I had to pay him with was a check. He declined. My wife and I were not angry at him, just very disappointed and very very sad. I lost a lot of faith in humanity that day. He was so worried that a 30 dollar check was going to bounce I guess, and to him, helping a fellow pilot out in his time of need was just not worth the risk. When all we can think about is ourselves, we all die a little. In today's world, I guess the Golden Rule no longer applies.
I think the dude in Louisiana was an *******. I would have gladly taken your check or even a handshake promise to send a check in the mail after you got home.

Do you honestly not see the huge difference in the moral context of what you are talking about and the original post that started this conversation? I sure do see a big difference. It is not even a little bit ok to enter my private property and take anything, compensated or not, without my knowledge and permission. Especially if it’s an airplane I’m flying my family around in... have you ever noticed how many stupid people fly airplanes. There’s no telling the level of dumb that could have happened when the fuel was being “purchased.”

If you’re really ok that’s fine but stop labeling me as a selfish person for disagreeing.
 
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