Help with learning the different approaches

jasc15

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Joe
I have Sporty's IFR dvd course, and have been having a hell of a time keeping things straight in the "Terminal Operations" section. I am keeping notes, but it's still scattered in my mind. I'll write down that "LDA's are offset from the rwy by more than 3* (or some angle, I forget) and may or may not have a glideslope", but I don't see how it fits into the whole set of approaches.

I understand there are precision and non-precision approaches, but not which ones fall into those categories, or what the real difference is (precision has glideslope? Is that the only difference?)

Also, are there standard minima associated with each type? There seem to be unique minima for every approach, but I keep hearing about standard and non standard minima.

So it would be great if you fine folks could possibly give a clear list of the different approaches and a logical categorization of them.

Thanks!
 
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basically, precision is ILS. everything else is non precision.
 
basically, precision is ILS. everything else is non precision.
Technically, yes. For all intents and purposes, an LPV is also a precision approach, and I believe the PTS says that an LPV qualifies for the precision approach requirement.

Of course, you need a WAAS GPS to fly an LPV approach.
 
I have Sporty's IFR dvd course, and have been having a hell of a time keeping things straight in the "Terminal Operations" section. I am keeping notes, but it's still scattered in my mind.

So it would be great if you fine folks could possibly give a clear list of the different approaches and a logical categorization of them.

Thanks!
In your same boat using the same study materials, with the same results. My nearest flight school is an hour drive, 15 min flight, but I have a job and can't commit the time they'll want for a ground school. I'll just wind up memorizing the test like I did for my PPL. Hopefully by the time the checkride comes, I'll have enough in-plane time to speak intelligently about it. Half the stuff on the test I'll never need, and the other half will hopefully stand out. FYI I'm using the ASA Prepware Ipad app. Take the test a hundred times or so and you've got yourself a passing grade. I'm 67% there as of tonight, and about 9 hrs worth of hood/actual. Good luck!
 
Technically, yes. For all intents and purposes, an LPV is also a precision approach, and I believe the PTS says that an LPV qualifies for the precision approach requirement.

Of course, you need a WAAS GPS to fly an LPV approach.

ok its been a while since i looked at an instrument PTS. didn't know that. you still can't file an alternate at 600-2 based on an LPV though, right?
 
ok its been a while since i looked at an instrument PTS. didn't know that. you still can't file an alternate at 600-2 based on an LPV though, right?

I believe that's correct Tony. Ron will be along soon. :D
 
ok its been a while since i looked at an instrument PTS. didn't know that.
Yep, I just took my checkride so I was up on the possibility. ;) My DPE still had me do an ILS, though.
you still can't file an alternate at 600-2 based on an LPV though, right?
Yes, that's my understanding, you have to use non-precision alternate minimums, 800-2. It's in the AIM, in the Chapter 1 section describing GPS and WAAS (I can't remember the exact section number though).
 
I have Sporty's IFR dvd course, and have been having a hell of a time keeping things straight in the "Terminal Operations" section. I am keeping notes, but it's still scattered in my mind. I'll write down that "LDA's are offset from the rwy by more than 3* (or some angle, I forget) and may or may not have a glideslope", but I don't see how it fits into the whole set of approaches.
LDA is basically an ILS or LOC where the final approach course is more then 3 degrees off the runway centerline. I'm not sure why the FAA felt the need to create that different name -- perhaps it has to do with ICAO standards. From a pilot's perspective, an LDA is the same as a LOC (and a LDA with GS is the same as an ILS) except you're going to have to look left or right to see the runway when you break out and make a heading correction to align yourself with the runway.

I understand there are precision and non-precision approaches, but not which ones fall into those categories, or what the real difference is (precision has glideslope? Is that the only difference?)
That's correct -- precision has an electronic glide path, and nonprecision does not. The joker in the pack is the RNAV(GPS) approach with LPV (that's "localizer precision with vertical guidance"), which requires a WAAS GPS. LPV has a GPS-derived precision glide path, and is treated as a precision approach for training and testing purposes, but as a nonprecision approach for alternate minimums purposes. There is also something called LNAV/VNAV, which is treated the same as a LPV. LNAV/VNAV uses barometric data to aid the vertical guidance, but you're not likely to see that one in a light single.

The other big difference between precision and nonprecision is how you determine the missed approach point. For precision approaches, there is a Decision Altitude (DA). You fly the glide slope to the DA, looking for the runway as you descend. If you reach DA without having seen the runway, you start your missed approach upon reaching DA. Nonprecision approaches have a Minimum Descent Altitude (MDA), and a designated missed approach point (MAP) which is determined either by time from the FAF, DME distance, or passage of a ground navaid. Once you pass the FAF, you descend to the MDA, level off, and start looking for the runway. If you see the runway and are in position to descend and land, you do. If you reach the MAP without being able to land, you start the missed approach from there.

Also, are there standard minima associated with each type? There seem to be unique minima for every approach, but I keep hearing about standard and non standard minima.
The Terminal Procedures Standards (TERPS) set "standard" minima for each type of approach based on a wide range of factors, including everything from the type of system (VOR, NDB, etc) to the distance from the navaid to alignment with the runway to the lighting systems associated with the runway. That's all done by the folks who design the approach charts, it's transparent to you, and it's really not your concern -- you just use what's published and that's that.

Where you need to worry about standard vs nonstandard minimums is when you're selecting an alternate airport. Each approach to an airport is evaluated by the FAA to determine if you can use the "standard" alternate minimums to decide if the forecast weather there is good enough for you to use that approach/airport as your filed alternate, or whether you must use nonstandard minimums based on some criteria in TERPS. The standard alternate minimums are 600-2 for precision approaches, and 800-2 for nonprecision. If there is a reason those aren't good enough, then that approach chart will be marked with a triangle-A symbol to tell you to look in the nonstandard alternate minimums section of the approach book to see what the nonstanards alternate minimums are for that approach. If that approach is marked A-NA, you can't use that approach to file that airport as an alternate.
 
It can actually be quite a bit displaced. Take the DCA LDA's. The Roslyn one dumps you out 2000' and 3.4 miles from the runway that you are approaching at a 45 degree angle and there are obstacles in the straight line path between you and the runway. The EGE LDA 25 is pretty well aligned with the runway but still leaves you 2 miles out.

I can still hear Martha King going "Localizer Darn Angle" approach in the back of my head. Too many hours with those darn video tapes.
 
Great info Cap'n Ron, thats pretty much exactly how I needed it broken down.

One thing further on alternate minimums: I wasnt really sure what was meant by "alternate". I thought it was meant as "secondary" for the approach being used, but I now understand it to apply only if you are using that approach to land at your filed alternate destination. In other words, if the approach chart has a Triangle "A", you need to consider the alternate minimums only if you are using that approach as an alternate destination. Is this correct?
 
Great info Cap'n Ron, thats pretty much exactly how I needed it broken down.

One thing further on alternate minimums: I wasnt really sure what was meant by "alternate". I thought it was meant as "secondary" for the approach being used, but I now understand it to apply only if you are using that approach to land at your filed alternate destination. In other words, if the approach chart has a Triangle "A", you need to consider the alternate minimums only if you are using that approach as an alternate destination. Is this correct?
Not quite. The alternate minimums only apply in flight planning. They limit the airports you can choose as alternates to those that have good enough forecast weather for the best approaches that both exist at those airports and are flyable by you, with the equipment that you have legally installed and configured. The alternate minimums, standard or otherwise, define what "good enough" means. The need for an alternate only affects your fuel planning, since you have to carry enough fuel to fly to your destination, then to your alternate, and then for an additional 45 minutes at normal cruise. It's basically a way to make sure you carry enough fuel for the planned flight and reasonable contingencies. It doesn't say anything about what approaches you can use once you are at your destination, or at the alternate, or even that you *have* to go to your alternate if your destination is below minimums. Once you are actually in the air, you can shoot any approach you like (and are cleared for, except in a lost comms situation), and as long as you have the required visibility and visual references, you can land.
 
PRECISION APPROACH PROCEDURE− A standard
instrument approach procedure in which an
electronic glideslope/glidepath is provided; e.g., ILS,
MLS, and PAR.
(See INSTRUMENT LANDING SYSTEM.)
(See MICROWAVE LANDING SYSTEM.)
(See PRECISION APPROACH RADAR.)

NONPRECISION APPROACH PROCEDURE− A
standard instrument approach procedure in which no
electronic glideslope is provided; e.g., VOR,
TACAN, NDB, LOC, ASR, LDA, or SDF
approaches.

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/PCG/pcg.pdf
 
I don't mean this to sound snarky, but if you cannot attend ground school, can you spend more time with your instructor before you fly?

Ron's explanation is excellent, and should suffice; but it would be nice if your instructor could be there in person, interactively, perhaps even writing in your notebook or on a whiteboard.

I didn't do groundschool--just read the Jepp, did Sporty's, and spent time with my CFI-IA.

It may take awhile, but you'll get it!

I have Sporty's IFR dvd course, and have been having a hell of a time keeping things straight in the "Terminal Operations" section. I am keeping notes, but it's still scattered in my mind. I'll write down that "LDA's are offset from the rwy by more than 3* (or some angle, I forget) and may or may not have a glideslope", but I don't see how it fits into the whole set of approaches.

I understand there are precision and non-precision approaches, but not which ones fall into those categories, or what the real difference is (precision has glideslope? Is that the only difference?)

Also, are there standard minima associated with each type? There seem to be unique minima for every approach, but I keep hearing about standard and non standard minima.

So it would be great if you fine folks could possibly give a clear list of the different approaches and a logical categorization of them.

Thanks!
 
Hi Joe. Good luck on your pursuit.

Where else but on the Internet could you get the kind of useful, accurate and free information that Cap'n Ron, Azure and others provided you. There are a lot of great people on this (and other) boards that can be a big help as you pursue one of flying's most difficult ratings. Sometimes there are others that are argumentative and confrontational, and I appreciate that those who are here to learn and share their experience are willing to ignore them and continue being a part of "our" online community. Thanks guys -- I just wanted to say that after this fine example.
 
Thanks for the help, everyone. At this point, Im just getting my feet wet and trying to familiarize myself with the instrument environment. I'm not sure when I will be able to commit the time and money for the full rating, but I will certainly be employing the services of a CFII for ground training when the time comes.
 
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