Help the new pilot

[Let'sgoflying!]

My good friend is learning to fly. I think it is normal and healthy to be asking questions of others - that is, to seek knowledge in addition to that which your instructor is providing. I did make note to him in my response that I couldn't teach a hound to bay so he should pass all my ideas past his cfi first. Anyway, this is what he asked, can you suggest anything?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"did a bunch of touch and goes--my biggest problem was lining up on final--when the cfi said we were lined up I felt like I was way right..I guess it was just my perspective but thought i would ask a pro for pointers???

2ndly---"keeping the nose up" while landing, he would say good hold it there...get it up! I was confused, i thought hold it there meant the yoke,but nooooo,it meant the attitude, i think i understand that now....
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[SkyHog]

My good friend is learning to fly. I think it is normal and healthy to be asking questions of others - that is, to seek knowledge in addition to that which your instructor is providing. I did make note to him in my response that I couldn't teach a hound to bay so he should pass all my ideas past his cfi first. Anyway, this is what he asked, can you suggest anything?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"did a bunch of touch and goes--my biggest problem was lining up on final--when the cfi said we were lined up I felt like I was way right..I guess it was just my perspective but thought i would ask a pro for pointers???

2ndly---"keeping the nose up" while landing, he would say good hold it there...get it up! I was confused, i thought hold it there meant the yoke,but nooooo,it meant the attitude, i think i understand that now....
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Not a CFI either, but I had a similar problem with lining up the runway. My secret:

Make the approach end and the departure end of the runway line up. Pick two points on the runway, and make them stack up- on on top of the other (make sure the points are far away). That means that the runway is lined up. As you get closer, put the line between your legs. Eventually, putting the line between the legs from further out gets easier.

2nd one - I had the same problem too...it was fear. I wanted the nose on the ground ASAP! He just needs to break the desire to drop the nose.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"did a bunch of touch and goes--my biggest problem was lining up on final--when the cfi said we were lined up I felt like I was way right..I guess it was just my perspective but thought i would ask a pro for pointers???

Usually due to student using the spinner as the visual alignment center point instead of a cowl crease (whatever) directly ahead of the pilot. If the student has the proper visual alignment point and places both ends of the runway along that point s/he is usually properly aligned on final.

 

[poadeleted20]

Usually due to student using the spinner as the visual alignment center point instead of a cowl crease (whatever) directly ahead of the pilot. If the student has the proper visual alignment point and places both ends of the runway along that point s/he is usually properly aligned on final.

Usually, if the trainee is using the spinner instead of something directly in front of him, he lines up left, not right, of centerline (unless he's a USAFA cadet in the right seat of a DA20). To help this student, I'd start by asking what he is using to line up, and go from there.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Usually, if the trainee is using the spinner instead of something directly in front of him, he lines up left, not right, of centerline

If you ask the student, it would be good to also listen to what the student tells you. Go back and read the description, Ron. Student states that when CFI places aircraft on extended runway center line final, student tells CFI that proper line up appears to be right of what student thinks is proper center ("when the cfi said we were lined up I felt like I was way right")... IOW, the student is setting up left.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Well, I told him to ask the i to take him along the localizer, left, and right and get the sight picture of what R, C, and L looks like all the way from 2 miles out to touchdown. (I figured this would also help rule out any instructor alignment error)
I suggested more time on the ground with a model in hand for the second problem, with 'i' describing the airplane attitude, the verbal corrections he would be giving for each likely problem.

 

[gismo]

It does sound like he's lining up his eyes, the spinner, and the approach end of the runway so a discussion about what to line up is in order. I think your idea of drifting back and forth across the centerline might help as long as the CFI points out what to look for and when it looks right. To me the key is making the center stripe (or the whole runway if you are far out on final) is very important because you cannot center any particular point on the plane if you are crabbing into the wind. Also one's perception of drift and centerring has much more resolution when you are looking at two points far away from you and each other compared to having one of those points close up (EG a spot on the cowl). Finially, I'd have the student verbalize what he's seeing and correcting for on final to confirm that he's got the right sight picture.

On the nose drop in the flare, it sounds like the student didn't understand that the goal is to maintain a specific pitch attitude which will require a continual increase in back pressure due to the loss of control effectiveness as you slow down. IOW I think he's confusing the need to hold pitch constant with the incorrect notion of holding the yoke constant. Usually this effect is demonstrated during slow flight practice, but his instructor may not have made the connection with the same issue in the flare. That is probably coupled with a student's instinctive tendency to "not mess with anything" (IE quit actually flying the plane) during the flare from a (potentially subconscious) fear of making the wrong input and messing things up. The same "mental force" causes pilots to drift off the centerline during the flare.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you ask the student, it would be good to also listen to what the student tells you. Go back and read the description, Ron. Student states that when CFI places aircraft on extended runway center line final, student tells CFI that proper line up appears to be right of what student thinks is proper center ("when the cfi said we were lined up I felt like I was way right")... IOW, the student is setting up left.

Next time, I will have my first cup of coffee before posting.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Next time, I will have my first cup of coffee before posting.

I know the feeling.

 

[Henning]

My good friend is learning to fly. I think it is normal and healthy to be asking questions of others - that is, to seek knowledge in addition to that which your instructor is providing. I did make note to him in my response that I couldn't teach a hound to bay so he should pass all my ideas past his cfi first. Anyway, this is what he asked, can you suggest anything?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"did a bunch of touch and goes--my biggest problem was lining up on final--when the cfi said we were lined up I felt like I was way right..I guess it was just my perspective but thought i would ask a pro for pointers???

2ndly---"keeping the nose up" while landing, he would say good hold it there...get it up! I was confused, i thought hold it there meant the yoke,but nooooo,it meant the attitude, i think i understand that now....
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

First: This is not a problem, he is correct in that it is a perspective issue. The problem is he isnt using the correct point over the cowl, everyone likes to us the spinner at first. When the instructor tells him he's lined up, he should look at the centerline if the runway and look at where that intersects with the cowl. A piece of tape on the spot may help.

2ndly: His thoughts as to holding attitude vs. yoke position are correct. As airspeed bleeds off, elevator authority diminishes therefor the control must be eased back continuously to maintain attitude. Since the main foil will stall prior to the tail plane in a properly loaded aircraft, this will lead to the wing progressively stalling from root to tip (a design feature of the airplane involving a difference in the angle of incidence of the chord and/or changes in the foil design its self) as airspeed bleeds off and the plane settling onto the runway. If the plane doesn't have far to settle, he'll grease right in.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

My good friend is learning to fly. I think it is normal and healthy to be asking questions of others - that is, to seek knowledge in addition to that which your instructor is providing. I did make note to him in my response that I couldn't teach a hound to bay so he should pass all my ideas past his cfi first. Anyway, this is what he asked, can you suggest anything?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"did a bunch of touch and goes--my biggest problem was lining up on final--when the cfi said we were lined up I felt like I was way right..I guess it was just my perspective but thought i would ask a pro for pointers???

2ndly---"keeping the nose up" while landing, he would say good hold it there...get it up! I was confused, i thought hold it there meant the yoke,but nooooo,it meant the attitude, i think i understand that now....
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Try visualizing the extended RWY centerline right up to your chest with no adjustment for parallelax, because it isn't necessary until you're just above the flare on very narrow RWYs.

 

[MSmith]

First: This is not a problem, he is correct in that it is a perspective issue. The problem is he isnt using the correct point over the cowl, everyone likes to us the spinner at first. When the instructor tells him he's lined up, he should look at the centerline if the runway and look at where that intersects with the cowl. A piece of tape on the spot may help.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think I ever line up anything on the plane with the runway. I just try to keep my ground track lined up on the runway. Makes things easier when I have to crab my way down.

On the other hand, maybe I am lining something up subconsciously and just don't realize it.

 

[poadeleted20]

At the carrier, the Navy has a neat system called the "drop lights." They run a vertical line of lights straight down from the aft end of the landing area centerline lights. If you're lined up, the drop lights and centerline lights form a straight line. If not, there an angle between them, with the bottom end of the drop lights pointing to the side to which you're off. Makes line-up a lot easier at night, but it's hard to implement at land airports unless they're located on the edge of a 60-foot cliff.

 

[MSmith]

Would drop lights work at a place like Charlotte, WV (on the top of a mountain), or does it have to be a straight dropoff?

Make that CHARLESTON, WV.

 

[bharris]

At the carrier, the Navy has a neat system called the "drop lights." They run a vertical line of lights straight down from the aft end of the landing area centerline lights. If you're lined up, the drop lights and centerline lights form a straight line. If not, there an angle between them, with the bottom end of the drop lights pointing to the side to which you're off. Makes line-up a lot easier at night, but it's hard to implement at land airports unless they're located on the edge of a 60-foot cliff.

Maybe we could ask the folks at Sedona, AZ to install those lights. Landing on RWY 3 would be easier, and you could ignore all of that rock in front of your go-around.

 

[mpartovi]

I was always told to "sit" on the centerline...IOW...align your body with the centerline.

Gives you the perception that you're right of center...but wait till you touch down...oh how sweet it is.

 

[gismo]

At the carrier, the Navy has a neat system called the "drop lights." They run a vertical line of lights straight down from the aft end of the landing area centerline lights. If you're lined up, the drop lights and centerline lights form a straight line. If not, there an angle between them, with the bottom end of the drop lights pointing to the side to which you're off. Makes line-up a lot easier at night, but it's hard to implement at land airports unless they're located on the edge of a 60-foot cliff.

I think you'd get the same effect with a very tall lighed pole at the far end of the runway. Might be a problem for takeoff's though.