HELP NEEDED SMON17 TEC.

[amoel]

Hello guys,

I am a low time instrument rated pilot. I flew this weekend from KCRQ to KSMO back and forth and filed IFR (although there was no IMC at all).

I filed for my way back the SMON21 TEC route which I find very straight forward and easy to fly, but for my surprise, the clearance given to me was the SMON17. So I proceeded to look it up on my AF/D and charts.

I kind of figured out and used user defined waypoints to fly it and had no problems, but I really do not understand a few things.

The thing here is that I am used to setting up my flight plan using intersections, but this route has two points where there is no such a thing (intersection), the first one is after overflying SMO on the 125R southbound, you intercept V64, but not at an intersection, same happens afterwards where they want me to take V363 (V64 and V363 do intersect, but there is no intersection), so pretty much I had to guide me with the "purple line" and some VOR usage, monitoring my MFD every 30 seconds... I defined some user generated waypoints on the intersections, but it took me a while to figure out that function on the Cirrus Perspective...

Did I do the right and easiest thing, or did I just completely misunderstood my clearance? (I don't think so, because I would have been yelled at by ATC).

Any help?

 

[poadeleted20]

What sort of GPS are you using? If it's a Garmin 430/530/650/750, it is pretty easy to create a USR waypoint that is the intersection of two VOR radials -- see the Pilot Guide.

 

[amoel]

Its the Garmin G1000 Cirrus Perspective.

 

[poadeleted20]

Its the Garmin G1000 Cirrus Perspective.

Same thing is possible. In the Cirrus Perspective Integrated Avionics System Pilot Guide (190-00820-03 -- I've got Rev A), see "Creating User Waypoints" on Page 185. You're looking for the "RAD/RAD" method (item 4a).

 

[KA550]

A Child of the Magenta. Oh no, there is no named intersection. Declare an emergency.

 

[dans2992]

A Child of the Magenta. Oh no, there is no named intersection. Declare an emergency.

Well, to be fair, the FAA has taken the position that they are eliminating VORs. Given this fact, they really should assign intersection names where necessary for those pilots navigating more with GPS.

 

[amoel]

Well, thanks guys. I take it that it is NORMAL and COMMON to receive clearances with changes in Victor Airways even where there is no named intersection. At 165 hours (with only probably 35 after my instruments rating) this is the first time it happens to me.

 

[bbchien]

Well, thanks guys. I take it that it is NORMAL and COMMON to receive clearances with changes in Victor Airways even where there is no named intersection. At 165 hours (with only probably 35 after my instruments rating) this is the first time it happens to me.

Happened to me twice leaving Boston Center's airspace last month.....

 

[coma24]

I was mentoring a Cirrus pilot last year who had 800 hours total time, all of it in his SR22. We were talking about TEC routes in Socal (he's an east coast guy) and I threw that route at him in the sim as an exercise. He faced the exact same issue you did. Without an intersection name to plugin, he was struggling. I say that so you know that you're not alone.

There is a danger in having too much automation, though, you need to be able to fall back to fundamentals, tracking courses based on radials. The SMO125R to join V64 is a matter of tracking the SMO R-125 outbound until you intercept V64, which is just another radial of SLI.

The V64 V363 intercept is similar, you're tracking a radial off SLI for V64 to intercept a radial of ELB to join V363.

If you'd like to use the GPS a bit more, you can program "SLI TUSTI COREL JOGIT ELB" into your flight plan on the G1000 (no, you won't be flying them in that order, but stay with me...). Once you hit TUSTI, swap to HDG mode on the autopilot to hold the current heading. Advance the flight plan to the JOGIT->ELB leg and select 'activate leg'. That will have the GPS sequence you on a course from JOGIT to ELB (which is V363). Arm NAV mode on the AP and once you get close enough, the plane should turn right and fly that course.

So, you can either do it with creative use of existing waypoints and the Activate Leg feature of any GPS, or you can revert to simple VOR's.

A variation of the theme would be to use HDG hold while on V64, then swa to LOC mode on the GPS (to track a VOR course rather than a GPS-based course) and dial in the desired radial off ELB, then activate NAV mode. That would do it, too.

One of the recently-mentioned PilotEdge workshops covered this EXACT route in detail, with descriptions of various ways to fly it. I believe it was the IFR enroute workshop, but if you'd like me to look it up, let me know.

 

[coma24]

Also, perhaps I can help clear up some confusion as to why you got a different route than you filed. There is no actual CHOICE when it comes to TEC routes. At any given time, only ONE should be available. You said you filed the SMON21, but got the SMON17.

This link shows the TEC routes from SMO to CRQ:
http://myflightroute.com/tecsub.php?start=KSMO&end=KCRQ&type=%

Notice that the SMON21 is only used when SNA is in north operations. That is a very rare condition.

 

[dans2992]

Well, thanks guys. I take it that it is NORMAL and COMMON to receive clearances with changes in Victor Airways even where there is no named intersection. At 165 hours (with only probably 35 after my instruments rating) this is the first time it happens to me.

Agreed. Completely normal and common. I just find it interesting that the FAA claims they want to move from VORs to GPS, yet leaves all these intersections unnamed.

 

[wsuffa]

Well, thanks guys. I take it that it is NORMAL and COMMON to receive clearances with changes in Victor Airways even where there is no named intersection. At 165 hours (with only probably 35 after my instruments rating) this is the first time it happens to me.

It's also common IFR DP out of HEF toward the Ohio Valley and westward

 

[EdFred]

OBS function is your friend.

 

[coma24]

OBS function is your friend.

Practically speaking, if you're not far from the station, then OBS mode for a GPS course is a reasonable proxy for actually tuning the VOR. However, the calculated magnetic declination in the GPS will often be a couple of degs from the declination of the VOR.

For example T245 from SMO has a course of 128, yet it's along the SMO R-125. That's a 3 deg difference. If you're far away enough from the station, that could translate to a big enough deviation to get someone's attention.

 

[EdFred]

Practically speaking, if you're not far from the station, then OBS mode for a GPS course is a reasonable proxy for actually tuning the VOR. However, the calculated magnetic declination in the GPS will often be a couple of degs from the declination of the VOR.

For example T245 from SMO has a course of 128, yet it's along the SMO R-125. That's a 3 deg difference. If you're far away enough from the station, that could translate to a big enough deviation to get someone's attention.

Yeah, but since a CDI check can be off 4 or 6 degrees and still be legal anyway, it's a wash.

 

[flyingron]

Practically speaking, if you're not far from the station, then OBS mode for a GPS course is a reasonable proxy for actually tuning the VOR. However, the calculated magnetic declination in the GPS will often be a couple of degs from the declination of the VOR.

Only if miscoded.

For example T245 from SMO has a course of 128, yet it's along the SMO R-125. That's a 3 deg difference. If you're far away enough from the station, that could translate to a big enough deviation to get someone's attention.

The magnetic course changes continually (except for certain degenerate cases) over the length of any straight line (which a VOR radial is). There's a difference between being on the give OBS radial to a VOR (or whatever waypoint) and the displayed (and actual) magnetic course.

 

[jimstamm]

So I started flying PilotEdge and faced the same problem. After mapping the route, I found I had to make a single waypoint in the 430/530, which is pretty easy. Make the waypoint SMOW (or whatever you want to call it) with a radial of 125 deg and 18 NM wrt the SMO VOR. Once you do that, the route can be entered in a 430/530 as follows:

SMO SMOW WOKRO ELB DANAH OCN KCRQ

Happy Flying!

PS If you really wanted to get religious about the route, you could put seal beach VOR (SLI) in between SMOW and WOKRO, but not really needed

 

[John Collins]

There is no reason why these TEC routes should not be adapted to GPS/FMS usage. It would make the routes easier to enter and when the entire route is given in a clearance, easier to copy. I will follow up on this as I raised it as an issue at the ACF (Aeronautical Charting Forum) as the routes are published in the AFD. They could not handle the request, but I have the contact information to follow up with the responsible FAA group that assigns the routes. I would not ask for any changes to the routes, just to add waypoints at appropriate locations and to define the routes in terms of waypoints whenever feasible. In some cases, the routes have waypoints established, but are still defined in terms of radial/radial intersections. An example is POPPR intersection is defined as SMO125R/SLI272R. Both definitions are on the Low Enroute Chart, but only the longer one is used in the route. /A and /U aircraft are not affected as one must still use the Low Enroute Chart to determine the radials an intersections found along airways.

 

[jimstamm]

Beautiful John, thats great. Yes, it took me three times to get the distance for the waypoint right, and thats only because I'm simming and was watching my path only Foreflight, which should be completely unnecessary. Plus, the waypoints I created are contained only in one physical GPS--in my case not even a real one...

Jim

 

[coma24]

Short of using custom waypoints, you can put "SMO POPPR WILMA SLI WOKRO" as the route into the GPS. Approaching POPPR, swap to VLOC and hold the SMO R-125 outbound. Then, go to FPL and use 'activate leg' on the WILMA->SLI leg. You can hold the current course until you intercept the leg.

Btw, entering it into ForeFlight is a snap, you can do SMO125/SLI251 as a waypoint.

 

[Henning]

Hello guys,

I am a low time instrument rated pilot. I flew this weekend from KCRQ to KSMO back and forth and filed IFR (although there was no IMC at all).

I filed for my way back the SMON21 TEC route which I find very straight forward and easy to fly, but for my surprise, the clearance given to me was the SMON17. So I proceeded to look it up on my AF/D and charts.

I kind of figured out and used user defined waypoints to fly it and had no problems, but I really do not understand a few things.

The thing here is that I am used to setting up my flight plan using intersections, but this route has two points where there is no such a thing (intersection), the first one is after overflying SMO on the 125R southbound, you intercept V64, but not at an intersection, same happens afterwards where they want me to take V363 (V64 and V363 do intersect, but there is no intersection), so pretty much I had to guide me with the "purple line" and some VOR usage, monitoring my MFD every 30 seconds... I defined some user generated waypoints on the intersections, but it took me a while to figure out that function on the Cirrus Perspective...

Did I do the right and easiest thing, or did I just completely misunderstood my clearance? (I don't think so, because I would have been yelled at by ATC).

Any help?

Yep, that is SoCal and the problem with the Garmin 4xx/5xx interface. First time I came across it I was in descent at 200+ kts over lake Arrowhead inbound for LGB in a T-310R when LGB reported Low IMC even though the rest of the basin was clear (the LGB Cloud behind Signal Hill was in). He gave me one of those routes that dog legs between V-Airways, and there was no way I could plug the route in in time. Since I didn't have a Low Enroute with me, I had to fess up and tell SoCal I couldn't program that fast so he could give me vectors, or I would proceed VFR to Seal Beach and pick up my clearance for the ILS there. Kind of embarrassing. The 650/750 series radios have v-airways and allow you to rubberband.

There is an interesting option for the 430/530 series now though, a Bluetooth link to your tablet running Garmin Pilot from which you can change and upload you amendment through the same interface as the 650/750 series. I haven't worked with it directly, but this is my understanding of it from people who should know.