Hello

[DSandberg]

Hi All -

I'm as new to flying as one can be. Well, maybe I've got one toe past the starting line in that I took my discovery flight yesterday. If was very awesome and I'm certainly interested in moving forward with the license. The flight school instructor seemed very knowledgeable and honest but I have a few questions that I'd like to get feedback on from a variety of pilots because I know the answer may vary based on a few factors.

1. Is the "initial license" a license to fly single propeller planes? The instructor mentioned getting an "instrument license" at some point. Can someone lay out the progression of licenses (single propeller, instrumentation, ...?) for someone who is interested in being a pilot only for his/her own recreation and not commercially?

2. I understand that after getting the license it is possible to use private planes for transportation but is it feasible? In other words, what sort of range is realistic (safe)? What sort of cost do most of the non-commercial pilots incur for a flight (say for a weekend)?

3. How often does one need to fly to maintain their license after it is obtained?

Thanks in advance, guys. I hope to be part of the elite group of pilots soon!

-Dan

 

[Captain]

Welcome to aviation! I'll try to answer your questions best I can. Others may have a different view...

1. Is the "initial license" a license to fly single propeller planes? The instructor mentioned getting an "instrument license" at some point. Can someone lay out the progression of licenses (single propeller, instrumentation, ...?) for someone who is interested in being a pilot only for his/her own recreation and not commercially?

The 'initial license' is usually a Private Pilots license (it's a certificate really). Most get their Private in Single Engine Land aircraft. You can also get Multi Engine Land and there are planes on floats that would be single or multi engine sea. You'll figure it out as you go along. For now, I'd bet you can just focus on Single Engine Land and working towards your private pilot certification.

2. I understand that after getting the license it is possible to use private planes for transportation but is it feasible? In other words, what sort of range is realistic (safe)? What sort of cost do most of the non-commercial pilots incur for a flight (say for a weekend)?

This question goes to cost. Given enough money anything is feasible. Want more range and fly faster...fine, it costs more.

[

3. How often does one need to fly to maintain their license after it is obtained?

Once you get your private it lasts forever (well, it can be revoked and you can surrender it). To use your certificate you have to be compliant with certain rules and regulations. Your CFI will teach you all about those. It's nothing too hard. Basically the FAA wants to make sure your proficient enough to not kill anybody.

Hope this helps. Again, welcome.

 

[arealrider]

Pick up a copy of the Far/aim.. It's the rules and regs for flying. It will explain the categories and types of pilot certificates...You will learn this as part of ground school or self study...the basic PPC SEL [single engine land] allows you to fly under certain conditions [ nice days] after that some pilots go for an Instrument rating..which basically lets you fly according to the instruments [ bad weather days/clouds]...Good luck on your journey! and safe flying !

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm as new to flying as one can be.

Welcome!

1. Is the "initial license" a license to fly single propeller planes?

Typically, yes -- and limited to good weather.

The instructor mentioned getting an "instrument license" at some point. Can someone lay out the progression of licenses (single propeller, instrumentation, ...?) for someone who is interested in being a pilot only for his/her own recreation and not commercially?

That's pretty much the progression -- get your Private Pilot certificate with Airplane Single Engine Land rating, build some experience (typically another 50 to 100 hours on top of what you have when you get the PP-ASEL), then do the instrument training and add the Instrument-Airplane rating you that PP.

2. I understand that after getting the license it is possible to use private planes for transportation but is it feasible?

Sure, if you accept certain limitations. First, there will be days when even if you have an instrument rating, your airplane can't handle the weather. Icing conditions and thunderstorms are the biggest barriers. Second, beyond a certain point , flying the airlines is cheaper and faster, although a lot less fun (and these days more and more painful), so many of us take our own planes even when the airlines appear to make more sense.

In other words, what sort of range is realistic (safe)?

I find that the break-even point for airlines versus my own plane is somewhere in the 500-800 mile range depending on where I'm going.

What sort of cost do most of the non-commercial pilots incur for a flight (say for a weekend)?

If you're renting a plane, most operators charge a minimum 2-3 hours a day if you take the plane for a weekend. For a typical light 4-seater, that could be as much as $800 or so whether you fly that far or not. If you own your own plane, it's a little harder to nail down, since there are fixed overhead costs like insurance and hangar which aren't affected by how often you fly. So if you go somewhere, say, 3 hours away, the direct marginal cost of the trip might only be the fuel and maybe an overnight tied down fee. For the sort of plane about which we're talking, fuel might run $350 and the overnight fees maybe $15 for two nights.

3. How often does one need to fly to maintain their license after it is obtained?

As an absolute legal minimum, you must get one hour of training with an instructor every two years to maintain your legal currency to fly as pilot in command, but that's a long way from maintaining sufficient proficiency to be safe. I think most folks agree that about 4 hours a month is about the minimum to maintain real proficiency, especially for a newer pilot.

Thanks in advance, guys. I hope to be part of the elite group of pilots soon!

Good luck!

 

[spinfire]

I'm not sure if anyone has explained yet what is meant by "instrument". You will learn to read all of the instruments during your private pilot training. The "instrument rating" is a new set of skills you learn to fly the airplane *solely* by instruments. This is needed to fly in reduced visibility or in clouds. Absent an instrument rating you are limited to flying under Visual Flight Rules. In practice this means ceilings (cloud bases) of at least 2000 feet or so and visibility more than 5 miles. The airlines are always flying under Instrument Flight Rules which requires the instrument rating but permits travel through clouds even down to low visibility landings.

You can do a lot of transportation flying under Visual Flight Rules. If you are retired and have all the time in the world you could do all of your transport flying VFR but most people would prefer to avoid waiting out whatever weather is causing instrument conditions. As some others have pointed out even an instrument rating will not allow you to penetrate all weather (even the airlines are blocked by thunderstorms!).

 

[Badger]

Welcome Dan!

 

[dell30rb]

In other words, what sort of range is realistic (safe)? What sort of cost do most of the non-commercial pilots incur for a flight (say for a weekend)?

There is no (safe) limit to the length of trips you can fly. I think Cap'n Ron's estimate is a good 'realistic' range, where flying yourself can save time and money over airlines. What matters on long trips is being able to understand weather forecasts and being able to read the weather by looking out your windows and if things are looking bad, you can go around it, land at a nearby airport and check the weather, call a weather specialist on the radio in flight, etc etc... your instructor (if he's good) will teach you all of these things.

One thing many new to GA don't realize - there are thousands of airports out there, you can land at all but a select few for free. For example, in NC, I am rarely more than 15 minutes from being able to land somewhere.

 

[alfadog]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_certification_in_the_United_States

 

[N801BH]

Welcome to flying and POA.....

You might give some thought to making sure you can pass a FAA medical before you get too far down the training road...

 

[alfadog]

2. I understand that after getting the license it is possible to use private planes for transportation but is it feasible? In other words, what sort of range is realistic (safe)? What sort of cost do most of the non-commercial pilots incur for a flight (say for a weekend)?

Depends on what you are flying.

My Arrow does maybe 160 mph, 5 hours range but you would want an hour of that for reserve, about $1/mile when you factor in everything involved in ownership except purchase or depreciation. And it holds four people so certainly a viable option for up to 640 sm, especially if you have passengers. More than that you have to justify above simple transpo.

 

[gprellwitz]

Depends on what you are flying.

My Arrow does maybe 160 mph, 5 hours range but you would want an hour of that for reserve, about $1/mile when you factor in everything involved in ownership except purchase or depreciation. And it holds four people so certainly a viable option for up to 640 sm, especially if you have passengers. More than that you have to justify above simple transpo.

But my experience with an Arrow (heck, most four-seaters for that matter) is that you can't have US-sized butts in all the seats and still have full tanks. Probably more like 320sm non-stop if you have all the seats filled.

Note that this is a common issue with light aircraft. The manufacturers build them to give us flexibility. We can trade fuel aboard (which equates to range) for people and cargo. However, in the US there are a lot of airports, so you can stop along the way, stretch the legs, and get more fuel! It's not uncommon for us to fly from Chicago down to the Bahamas, the East Coast, or New Orleans. In fact, the only one of those that isn't non-stop is the Bahamas. (This is a Cessna 182 Skylane with two to three adults aboard. The Skylane has much larger tanks and useful load than the Arrow, but isn't as fast.)

 

[alfadog]

But my experience with an Arrow (heck, most four-seaters for that matter) is that you can't have US-sized butts in all the seats and still have full tanks. Probably more like 320sm non-stop if you have all the seats filled.

Note that this is a common issue with light aircraft. The manufacturers build them to give us flexibility. We can trade fuel aboard (which equates to range) for people and cargo. However, in the US there are a lot of airports, so you can stop along the way, stretch the legs, and get more fuel! It's not uncommon for us to fly from Chicago down to the Bahamas, the East Coast, or New Orleans. In fact, the only one of those that isn't non-stop is the Bahamas. (This is a Cessna 182 Skylane with two to three adults aboard. The Skylane has much larger tanks and useful load than the Arrow, but isn't as fast.)

Usable load is about 1000# less 300# for full fuel leaves 700# for butts and bags. So depends on the size of butts and bags.

 

[denverpilot]

Welcome Dan. Good answers by all. Just saying hi.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Hello and welcome to PoA. Once you get that first license, you can fly all over the US if you want to. Hubby and I took a flight from New York to California and back in our 4-seat propeller-driven Cessna 172 within a year of getting his license. We gave ourselves three weeks to do it in and it was a wonderful adventure. We still do the trip about once every year or two.

Ron's estimation that the roll-over decision point comes around 500 to 800 miles works except that we fly into destinations that are not well-served by airlines. And, when we get to that destination, we want to be able to make short side-trips. It all comes down to how comfortable you are with your flying.

If your spouse is involved, it is so much better for both of you. Those who just "come along for the ride" are missing so much. A two-person crew makes the flying much more enjoyable and safe for both of you.

 

[gprellwitz]

Usable load is about 1000# less 300# for full fuel leaves 700# for butts and bags. So depends on the size of butts and bags.

That's a better useful load than the one I've flown! Nice! And yes, it always comes down to the size of the butts and bags!

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Hi All -

I'm as new to flying as one can be. Well, maybe I've got one toe past the starting line in that I took my discovery flight yesterday. If was very awesome and I'm certainly interested in moving forward with the license. The flight school instructor seemed very knowledgeable and honest but I have a few questions that I'd like to get feedback on from a variety of pilots because I know the answer may vary based on a few factors.'

Dude. Welcome.

1. Is the "initial license" a license to fly single propeller planes? The instructor mentioned getting an "instrument license" at some point. Can someone lay out the progression of licenses (single propeller, instrumentation, ...?) for someone who is interested in being a pilot only for his/her own recreation and not commercially?

I think that's covered already. Single engine land is a typical starting point. Adding an instrument rating is handy if you want to do a lot of cross country flying. But not necessary if you are willing to be flexible.

2. I understand that after getting the license it is possible to use private planes for transportation but is it feasible? In other words, what sort of range is realistic (safe)? What sort of cost do most of the non-commercial pilots incur for a flight (say for a weekend)?

The longest trip I've made in a single engine airplane (and not instrument rated) was about 3000 miles each way. (Cessna 120, two seat, 85 horsepower). Took about two weeks for the round trip. Several days involved hanging out at an airport waiting for weather to get better.

Cost? Aircraft take the Time = Money thing and turn it upside down. 1/Time = Money. (You have to pay for speed.)

Rent, you pay as you go. It adds up.

Own, much of the cost is now "fixed" and the marginal cost of taking a weekend trip is a lot lower. But you spend money even if you don't fly.

On the very low end of the marginal cost scale, if I were to take a weekend trip in my airplane, I would probably only go a few hundred miles because my airplane is so slow - otherwise I would spend the whole weekend flying there and back. But, if we assume 5 hours in the air each way (close to 400 miles) that would require about 45 gallons of gas for the trip. I could fill up with auto gas at home, but the rest of the way I would be paying airport prices for the fuel - about $6.00 per gallon. Just about any other airplane you could find would take more fuel (but go faster and could carry more weight).

Plus there is the potential for weather to get in the way and get stuck halfway for a night or two. If I were trying to get somewhere today, I would be stuck right now. The report from the home airport is clouds at 800 feet. Without an instrument rating, I ain't going anywhere.
Edit: An hour and a half later, ceilings are up to 2500 - good to go if I weren't at work.:wink2:

There is no upper limit on the cost.

3. How often does one need to fly to maintain their license after it is obtained?

Define "maintain". Legally, you need to get a flight review every two years. Practically, if you are only flying once a month, you will get pretty rusty.

Thanks in advance, guys. I hope to be part of the elite group of pilots soon!

Elite? Obviously you haven't seen my airplane...

 

[poadeleted20]

That's a better useful load than the one I've flown!

Note that his Arrow is one of the earlier models with only 50-gallon fuel capacity. The later ones hold 74 gallons, and their full-fuel payloads are consequently a lot smaller. Of course, you don't have to put full fuel in them, but be aware of this when talking about payloads in Arrows. In addition, his 1972 model is a lot lighter empty than the later models, but max gross weights have also gone up -- the current advertised "standard" useful load for a new Arrow is 960 lb (and unlike 1972, "standard" equipment is pretty well equpped, so I imagine most go out the door with over 900 lb useful load).

With 50 gallons of fuel, you have a bit under 5 hours of endurance at 135 knots TAS (about 10.5 gph at that speed). That means a no-wind range of about 400-450 nm with IFR reserves.

 

[alfadog]

Note that his Arrow is one of the earlier models with only 50-gallon fuel capacity. The later ones hold 74 gallons, and their full-fuel payloads are consequently a lot smaller. Of course, you don't have to put full fuel in them, but be aware of this when talking about payloads in Arrows.

With 50 gallons of fuel, you have a bit under 5 hours of endurance at 135 knots TAS (about 10.5 gph at that speed). That means a no-wind range of about 400-450 nm with IFR reserves.

I burn under 9 gph at that speed. I guess all those speed mods actually make a difference

edit: I do 21.7"/2400 at 8500/9500' and do almost 165 mph over the ground according to the GPS both ways (up and back). I have only a one-cyl EGT/CHT and been leaning just ROP but after watching the video on leaning by Mike Busch I might go LOP a bit.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Welcome to POA. My journey, too, started with zero experience and one hella fun discovery flight. Still can't believe I'm a pilot, not a day goes by that I don't think:

I can't believe I am a pilot!!!!

Good luck to you.