Helicopter Crashes on A&M Campus

Those rudders cause more heli crashes. There has got to be an AD out on them.:frown2:
 
If it was a tail rotor failure, then dropping it to the ground as a witness reported was the best thing. By the picture it looks like a hard landing straight down on the skids.
 
If it was a tail rotor failure, then dropping it to the ground as a witness reported was the best thing. By the picture it looks like a hard landing straight down on the skids.

How would dropping straight to the ground with a tail rotor failure be the best thing?
 
How would dropping straight to the ground with a tail rotor failure be the best thing?

Because unless there was a significant amount of forward spped the other option is to spin wildly until you drop to the ground is some random attitude.
 
Because unless there was a significant amount of forward spped the other option is to spin wildly until you drop to the ground is some random attitude.

Yea.

Helicopters usually fare much better in a vertical crash at level attitude. I don't know about the Blackhawk in particular, but most helos are designed with skids/shocks that will absorb impact, crumple zones under the seats, and things of that nature.
 
Because unless there was a significant amount of forward spped the other option is to spin wildly until you drop to the ground is some random attitude.

Really? Well, depending upon how high the hover, winds, aircraft load ( a UH60 lightly loaded) and obstacles I don't see a throttle chop as your only way out.

Guess we'll wait till the accident report to see what happened.
 
Yea.

Helicopters usually fare much better in a vertical crash at level attitude. I don't know about the Blackhawk in particular, but most helos are designed with skids/shocks that will absorb impact, crumple zones under the seats, and things of that nature.

When I was teaching in helicopters I always taught my students not to crash. :rolleyes:
 
Really? Well, depending upon how high the hover, winds, aircraft load ( a UH60 lightly loaded) and obstacles I don't see a throttle chop as your only way out.

Guess we'll wait till the accident report to see what happened.

First I'm not a R-H instructor and have never flown anything as big as a Blackhawk but if you are in a hover and you the tail rotor goes bye-bye what are your other options? I was taught to sit it down...straight down just as fast as I can. I think the phrase used was, "If the tail rotor goes it is the insurance company helicopter."
 
Really? Well, depending upon how high the hover, winds, aircraft load ( a UH60 lightly loaded) and obstacles I don't see a throttle chop as your only way out.

Guess we'll wait till the accident report to see what happened.

What other options are there in the right circumstances? Being a fixed wing pilot, I thought all you could do after the tail rotor broke was go round and round.
 
First I'm not a R-H instructor and have never flown anything as big as a Blackhawk but if you are in a hover and you the tail rotor goes bye-bye what are your other options? I was taught to sit it down...straight down just as fast as I can. I think the phrase used was, "If the tail rotor goes it is the insurance company helicopter."

You were taught wrong.:rolleyes:
 
What other options are there in the right circumstances? Being a fixed wing pilot, I thought all you could do after the tail rotor broke was go round and round.

Nope, you can fly a helicopter around with the tail rotor missing, it's been done many,many times before. You just have to know the procedures and keep your cool.

Today most helicopter instructors won't teach advance maneuvers such as stuck pedal left, center and right or tail rotor failures in flight.
 
You were taught wrong.:rolleyes:

So what exactly would you do under those circumstances? Translation: Maybe you could answer the gentlman's question rather than roll your eyes at'im. Maybe?
 
You were taught wrong.:rolleyes:

Oh excuse me. I didn't think this was the Red Board. I guess I need to get my color vision checked. Over at the Blue board people are usually wiling to explain things like this when asked.
 
Why couldn't it autorotate? No torque from the engine, but lift from the main blades. Lift, no spinning.
 
Why couldn't it autorotate? No torque from the engine, but lift from the main blades. Lift, no spinning.
Assuming it was a tail rotor failure, in that flight profile autorotation would be the correct course of action. However looking at some of the sites that had pictures and video just prior to the crash, I am guessing they were doing steep approaches due to the dust. In that case he had very little forward speed compared to the power he was pulling. Which would result in a fast strong yaw (if the tail rotor failed). He may have tried to auto or he may have been trying to pull power to go land somewhere else. I don't think we will know until they do interviews of the survivors.
 
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I see the question has still not been answered, above.

I read previously that performing autorations to the ground in the UH-60 in the best of circumstances are extremely difficult, they do not practice them in an actual aircraft and most training attempts in the sim (even the experienced folks) result in a crash more often than not.
 
Nope, you can fly a helicopter around with the tail rotor missing, it's been done many,many times before. You just have to know the procedures and keep your cool.

Today most helicopter instructors won't teach advance maneuvers such as stuck pedal left, center and right or tail rotor failures in flight.

With the tail rotor missing, most helicopters will have a CG issue that may end up rendering the aircraft a lawn dart depending on if the gear box is still attached and how the aircraft was loaded to begin with. A drive failure or complete loss of thrust, with the tail rotor still securely attached, may be controllable depending on the aircraft, loading and airspeed and altitude. The S92 does not fare well at all without the tail rotor turning - it is essentially an autorotation in order to recover and control the aircraft. However, the 412 I could limp along provided I was above ETL when the fan quit blowing.

Now, stuck pedal as you say, fixed pitch as I say, is a different story. Fixed pitch in most circumstances is no big thing. Fly around all day long and land like an airplane. Depending on the power setting at which the tail rotor is fixed will determine how fast you have to run it on. Doesn't sound, at least right now, that that was the case with this particular accident.
 
With the tail rotor missing, most helicopters will have a CG issue that may end up rendering the aircraft a lawn dart depending on if the gear box is still attached and how the aircraft was loaded to begin with. A drive failure or complete loss of thrust, with the tail rotor still securely attached, may be controllable depending on the aircraft, loading and airspeed and altitude. The S92 does not fare well at all without the tail rotor turning - it is essentially an autorotation in order to recover and control the aircraft. However, the 412 I could limp along provided I was above ETL when the fan quit blowing.

Now, stuck pedal as you say, fixed pitch as I say, is a different story. Fixed pitch in most circumstances is no big thing. Fly around all day long and land like an airplane. Depending on the power setting at which the tail rotor is fixed will determine how fast you have to run it on. Doesn't sound, at least right now, that that was the case with this particular accident.

Laurie:

Good to see you back and active again!

Can you describe for us rotorless pilots how you might accommodate a tail rotor failure and keep flying? I had always assumed that your only choice was to go to a no-power (ie, autorotation) mode, to avoid becoming a centrifuge.
 
Not Laurie, but Air & Space magazine had an article a while back on helicopter flying in the Army over the years and there was mention the S-58 (think Riptide) could be flown sans tail rotor provided the forward speed was sufficient to allow the airflow over the fuselage to provide the torque resistance. It flew a little cockeyed, but it could be done.
 
Laurie:

Good to see you back and active again!

Can you describe for us rotorless pilots how you might accommodate a tail rotor failure and keep flying? I had always assumed that your only choice was to go to a no-power (ie, autorotation) mode, to avoid becoming a centrifuge.

Hey Spike! I'm probably not as active as I ought to be, but slowly coming out from under my rock :)

Basically you have two kinds of tail rotor failures: A drive failure in which the tail rotor no longer turns, i.e. the drive shaft breaks or seizes, or a control failure where the tail rotor is still spinning thus creating thrust, but you are unable to control or change that thrust, i.e., it's 'stuck' or fixed.

If I have a drive failure and the tail rotor stops spinning creating the thrust to counteract the torque effect of the main rotor, I may be able to continue provided that I have enough forward airspeed to essentially streamline the aircraft. As an earlier post said, it will fly 'cockeyed' but is controllable. This depends heavily on the design of the vertical fin and tail section. The vertical fin is an airfoil, however on the 92 it is called a vertical 'pylon' because it really has no aerodynamic benefit; it is there simply to hold the tail rotor. Thus, on the 92 when I have a drive failure, I cannot stop the right hand rotation even in forward flight until I enter autorotation. In a hover or with little or no forward airspeed, that vertical airfoil isn't producing any or enough 'lift' to counteract the torque of the main rotor, so unless you have enough altitude to get airspeed while 'flying' the aircraft in the right spin, it's unlikely you will be able to recover and will have to accept a landing, using whatever rotor speed an inertia you have to cushion the landing.

Fixed pitch on the other hand, is controllable under most all conditions. For example, the aircraft I currently fly, the S92, has a positive 10.5 degrees of pitch on the tail rotor blades in cruise flight. For simplicity sake, we'll call this neutral because in the cockpit what you see is that the pedals are centered. If during cruise, both of my control cables break, I am unable to control the tail rotor, but it's still turning and providing anti-torque 'lift' at that 10.5 degree pitch setting. Now if I continue in cruise flight, the aircraft flies straight as an arrow, BUT, when I make a power change or airspeed change, thus changing the demand for anti-torque, the aircraft will begin to fly out of trim. If I get too slow, the rotation will increase to the right and will be uncontrollable, so in order to land I cannot come to a hover, but must land with forward airspeed. In this aircraft in this situation, the touchdown speed to remain aligned with the centerline of the runway is about 45-50 knots. As you can see, this will vary from aircraft to aircraft.

Now if I'm taking off from a hover say, I have a high power demand, thus a high anti-torque demand so I have left pedal applied, increasing the pitch on the tail rotor and increasing lift. If say something jams my pedals and they are stuck right there, when I reduce power the aircraft will yaw left in the direction of the pedal applied because the tail rotor is producing all that lift to the right. My options for landing this one is to land with high power, thus I will need a slower forward airspeed than the situation above. This will vary based on just how high of a power setting I had when the tail rotor fixed, but as an example, in the 92 it's in the neighborhood of 20 knots under most atmospheric and loading conditions.

If in cruise I decide to descend, I'll reduce power (lower collective), thus reducing the demand for anti-torque, therefore I may have to apply right pedal. If a torque tube breaks, cable jams, or pedals jam here, now I am going to have to land with more forward airspeed than both situations above. Forward airspeed will be critical in maintaing airflow over the tail surfaces to provide a streamlining effect in order to land the aircraft aligned with the centerline. Even though the tail rotor is still turning and producing lift, it's a lower setting than that required for cruise flight. In the 92, again as an example, this can be an airspeed in the 70-80 knot range. This scenario can be especially tricky because as the nose yaws right it tends to pitch up, reducing airspeed further. The airspeed that was keeping you controlled can go away in a real hurry if you don't anticipate and adjust pitch attitude accordingly. That's why in the helicopter world, we say lucky left and rotten right. A stuck left is lucky because it's easier to deal with and requires less runway and forward speed to land than a rotten stuck right. It also applies to wind, in that I would rather have a slight left crosswind for landing (lucky) than a straight on wind. A right crosswind would be downright rotten and make my job a lot harder. But that's another aerodynamics lesson.

I hope this wasn't too long-winded and answered your question.
 
Laurie:

It was an excellent response, well-written and almost as if the author was knowledgeable about the subject matter and capable of teaching it.

Oh, wait... duh!
 
Laurie:

It was an excellent response, well-written and almost as if the author was knowledgeable about the subject matter and capable of teaching it.

Oh, wait... duh!

Here here!! Laurie, that was an excellent write up, and I enjoyed learning a new "aviator's rule of thumb" I'd not heard before (lucky left vs. rotten right).
 
Oh excuse me. I didn't think this was the Red Board. I guess I need to get my color vision checked. Over at the Blue board people are usually wiling to explain things like this when asked.

First of all, my apologies for the short response. I'm traveling in Southeast Asia at the moment and internet time is short. That coupled with my direct approach to most things makes it look like a smartass answer. (think "Dr. House", I am what I am ) :D

The other poster here did a better job with the detailed explanation of helicopter dynamics in relation to TR failure than I had time too. One of the things that disappoints me in today's flight training environment, especially on the rotor wing side is the blatant lake of emergency training. More time is spent on radio communication and how to operate a GPS than real world emergency and abnormal situation training. When I was teaching helicopter I went well beyond the PTS and trained aggressively for emergencies. My reward was no accidents or incidents with my helicopters or students. I also had the advantage of a Flyit Helicopter FTD I owned in which I could put the student in and show them just how bad, and quickly things would go wrong as well as show them how to avoid the situation.

Again, sorry for the short reply, and I appreciate the other poster taking the time to explain things in detail.
 
Hey Rotor & Wing - nice to see some more rotorheads on here.

I agree that in general there is a lack of emergency training in the civilian world and flight schools. I flew with pilots when I worked at PHI that just came out of flight instructing and had no idea what fixed pitch was, let alone had demonstrated it in a helicopter to a student. When I was teaching in a 141 school in H269's, it was required to be demonstrated on the CFI, but when I wrote the school's training program, I required it be trained to proficiency at the private and commercial level also for the school's syllabus. What's to say that a tail rotor failure will only happen to a CFI? Of course there's only so far you can go without the advantage of a sim so as to not create a real emergency. I guess the general consensus is that the probability of it happening for real doesn't justify the risk in training. Of course, most serious instructors believe that to be hogwash.
 
Really? Well, depending upon how high the hover, winds, aircraft load ( a UH60 lightly loaded) and obstacles I don't see a throttle chop as your only way out.

Guess we'll wait till the accident report to see what happened.


Throttle chop is your only way out. We have done this in the simulator many times and you will crash. The 60 has a low inertia rotor system and without the advantage of bleeding off forward airspeed the rotor RPM falls very rapidly (many times quicker than any Bell product). The pilots did the right thing and if they delayed the autoroation at all my guess is that no one would have survived. They survived one of the most deadly EP's in a Blackhawk. Its sad one died but it could have been worse.


Laurie...good job on your explaintion. The H-60 I'm assuming has the same TR designas your S-92 because if the cables fail the servos will also center to 10.5 degrees. When I went through Army flight training in 05 we did tons of stuck pedal training. It was one of my favorite EP's in the TH-67. You really have to understand the effects on induced drag and use it to your advantage to pull off a stuck pedal in a helicopter....
 
The 92 was originally designed with the idea it would be the 60's big brother. The tail rotor quadrant and canted design carried over exactly - and that was it. Many of the systems and numbers are very similar so the 92 is generally a pretty easy transition for Blackhawk pilots. Sounds like the rotor inertia is about the same too, or rather, lack thereof. MGTOW on the 92 is 26,500 and the total weight of all FOUR rotor blades is about 1020 pounds.
 
Max weight on the 60 is 22,000. I have no idea what our blades weigh but 1020 pounds in just the blades is impressive. I see the CH-53's in the pattern and that is one big bird....it dwarfs the 60.
 
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