Heckling a Student!

[Let'sgoflying!]

Hey I have often wondered, at what distance from the threshold does a right turn to join final approach course become an enroute maneuver which results in a straight-in instead of a base-to-final turn?
Should I expect a numeric answer or is this one of those subjective things? Id bet someone here knows.

 

[cherokeeflyboy]

Hey I have often wondered, at what distance from the threshold does a right turn to join final approach course become an enroute maneuver which results in a straight-in instead of a base-to-final turn?
Should I expect a numeric answer or is this one of those subjective things? Id bet someone here knows.

At the lateral limits of the airspace?

 

[Richard]

At the lateral limits of the airspace?

Better yet; when in position to make a normal landing using normal manuevers at a normal rate of descent.

Yes, I'm paraphrasing 92.175 and yes, I do know it concerns flight under IFR but why should the above section not pertain to VFR as well?

 

[gismo]

Hey I have often wondered, at what distance from the threshold does a right turn to join final approach course become an enroute maneuver which results in a straight-in instead of a base-to-final turn?
Should I expect a numeric answer or is this one of those subjective things? Id bet someone here knows.

I think there was a case about this specific issue several years ago. IIRC, the judge decided that you'd have to be well outside the normal traffic patterns to make a turn against the established pattern direction. I think the number was 4 nm, the radius of the standard Class D airspace (not that this has anything to do with Class D). I normally make sure I'm at least 5-6 nm out if I'm going to make a "wrong direction turn" to a straight in final at an uncontrolled airport. If I'm coming from a direction close to 90 degrees off the runway heading, I'll just enter on the crosswind instead.

 

[Dakota Duce]

"Lawrence Traffic, Mooney 1234, student over Lawrence, thats not what i asked, I asked whether you are left or right downind"

Do you guys think this was a little out of line?

Well it could have been worse. The student could have always replied..

"Let me check again, Please. Yep. I'm exactly in the spot that I'm in. If I wasn't here, then I'd be someplace else. Oh, by the way.. Are you the person to whom I'm speaking to? If not, then I'm talking to somebody else."

Dakota Duce

"May All Your Flights Be Of Good Weather!"

 

[MSmith]

Second, you don't know the situation in the Mooney. He could have had a really rough flight and been on edge. He could have been a CFI, going into teaching mode. You simply don't know the situation.

If he wasn't the Cessna student's CFI, I wouldn't want him trying to teach the student anything from another aircraft (or from the ground). Only the student's CFI will know what teaching is appropriate for that student pilot.

If the situation involved imminent danger, I might change my mind. But not in this case (assuming it WAS a CFI).

 

[MSmith]

Calling on turns is great and very exact, if there is plenty of time. Otherwise pilots may have to jump in with a call whenever a blank in the airtime permits, no matter where there are in the sequencing.

Our little untowered airport shares a CTAF with 2 other airports within 5 NM. Add to that the fact that the same CTAF is received in our pattern from other airports as far as 100+ NM away.

On a nice spring/summer weekend, you have to get into machine-gun mode in your announcements to get it all in. Even then, I've missed a call for base because I couldn't get a word in.

Add to that the bozo asking complicated questions to Unicom about ordering a taxi and it gets really bad. (If the frequency is THAT busy, order the cab on the ground - OK?)

 

[ScottM]

Add to that the bozo asking complicated questions to Unicom about ordering a taxi and it gets really bad. (If the frequency is THAT busy, order the cab on the ground - OK?)

How about hte guy 20NM out wanting to know the winds and asking for other traffic to 'please advise'? Can't they check the nearest AWOS and listen for the traffic that is calling? ERrrrr

 

[Pjsmith]

Well it could have been worse. The student could have always replied..

"Let me check again, Please. Yep. I'm exactly in the spot that I'm in. If I wasn't here, then I'd be someplace else. Oh, by the way.. Are you the person to whom I'm speaking to? If not, then I'm talking to somebody else."

That's really very funny. I'm a student myself and while I respect proper authority, I can be a bit irreverant when someone elects him/her self to that position! I've noticed in myself initially but in other students as well an early tendancy to defer to everyone else on the radios. Why, I don't know. As I spent more time in the air, however, I came to realize that a fair number of those 'seasoned' pilots who I was hearing weren't operating 'by the book' themselves, and were really in no position to comment on my radio calls which were accurate if a bit slow or fumbling.

This guy sounds like he has a serious superiority complex. Good thing he came out of the womb knowing inherently how to fly a plane and work the radios, and didn't have to go through the painful process of flight training. I hope that when he landed he was immediately snatched up by the local flight school as their Chief flight instructor, in recognition of his unparalleled accumen.

 

[Henning]

I definitely understood why the guy asked and wouldn't label him as a jerk, I was just kind of thinking it was a little over the top. I am sure the student had enough to think about. Probably made the student feel a little uncomfortable, which could be a really bad thing, especially so close to his landing.

The main thing I hope that the student came away from this with is to understands he needs to be more observant and to completely process the information. The first piece he should have caught was "10 miles out". I would have told him "no factor at 10 miles". Hopefully this little harmless if harsh exchange clues him in to pay attention. I have to admit, if someone is clueless while aviating, I can be rude to them. It's then up to them to figure out why they were up there clueless and if that leads to them chewing their instructors ass, so be it. I know there are better ways to go about, but I'm not being paid to be nice and nice takes longer and more of my time and effort. Some lessons you pay in cash, some you pay in ego and humiliation, still a fair price when you consider some lessons in aviation will cost you your life. Perspective must always be learned. Perhaps destiny sent him this cold hearted prick from 10 miles out to give him the wakeup call he needed to save him from that mid air in marginal vis two years from now. Trust me I don't believe that humiliation is the best way to teach something, but it can be quite expediant.

 

[Richard]

The main thing I hope that the student came away from this with is to understands he needs to be more observant and to completely process the information. The first piece he should have caught was "10 miles out". I would have told him "no factor at 10 miles". Hopefully this little harmless if harsh exchange clues him in to pay attention. I have to admit, if someone is clueless while aviating, I can be rude to them. It's then up to them to figure out why they were up there clueless and if that leads to them chewing their instructors ass, so be it. I know there are better ways to go about, but I'm not being paid to be nice and nice takes longer and more of my time and effort. Some lessons you pay in cash, some you pay in ego and humiliation, still a fair price when you consider some lessons in aviation will cost you your life. Perspective must always be learned. Perhaps destiny sent him this cold hearted prick from 10 miles out to give him the wakeup call he needed to save him from that mid air in marginal vis two years from now. Trust me I don't believe that humiliation is the best way to teach something, but it can be quite expediant.

How do you get away with it? I especially like the, "...I'm not paid to be nice..." line, that can describe me too but I always get busted for it by someone. I'd really like to know how I can get away with it too.

BTW: I don't disagree with anything you said. Might be too harsh for some but it is the truth.

 

[Henning]

How do you get away with it? I especially like the, "...I'm not paid to be nice..." line, that can describe me too but I always get busted for it by someone. I'd really like to know how I can get away with it too.

BTW: I don't disagree with anything you said. Might be too harsh for some but it is the truth.

Because I speak the truth and I've seen too many people killed and most importantly, I don't mind being called a cold hearted prick. I don't mind being called that if the potential result is that a kid grows up with a parent rather than without, or even more so, a parent doesn't have to bury their child. Small price, sometimes wake up calls are more effective with a canon than a feather.

 

[Richard]

Because I speak the truth and I've seen too many people killed and most importantly, I don't mind being called a cold hearted prick. I don't mind being called that if the potential result is that a kid grows up with a parent rather than without, or even more so, a parent doesn't have to bury their child. Small price, sometimes wake up calls are more effective with a canon than a feather.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Henning, you're my hero. I'm serious.

 

[Henning]

so if it says airplanes must make left traffic, then it *is* standard, so why call it unless the chart says right - i.e. non standard?

Must??? Never assume anything.

 

[Henning]

That strikes me as illegal:

§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.

(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

(2) Each pilot of a helicopter or a powered parachute must avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft.

§ 91.127 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class E airspace.

(a) Unless otherwise required by part 93 of this chapter or unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class E airspace area, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class E airspace area must comply with the requirements of §91.126.

Now go read part 137 and you'll see one exception.