Heckling a Student!

[Rudy]

I meant to post this back when it happend, but better late than never I suppose.

I was out flying around PTS a couple of weeks ago. We pick up quite a few other airports once you get up to about 3000 ASL. I was hearing Lawrence traffic and I heard a student call in
"Cessna 1234 student is downwind runway 33"
another guy comes on "Mooney 1234, 10 miles North, student over Lawrence are you left or right downwind."
Pretty honest question to start off with,
Student replies "uhhh....Cessna 1234 is on the west side of runway, preparing to turn base" he was obviously a little confused.
Reply back comes,
"Lawrence Traffic, Mooney 1234, student over Lawrence, thats not what i asked, I asked whether you are left or right downind"
Student Replies "uhhh....Cessna 1234 is on Final Runway 33"


I thought to myself that the guy in the Mooney was kind of out of line, not for asking the question in the first place, but for demanding an answer, by the student saying he was on the west side of the runway the Mooney knew where he was. Then after thinking about it later, the Mooney is 10 miles out and when the student states he is to the west he said preparing to turn base.

It is obviously something the student should have known, but I don't think he deserved to be heckled, I mean at that time the student was probably worrying a lot just about flying the airplane, a guy getting angry at him, probably wouldn't help anything.

Do you guys think this was a little out of line?

 

[woodstock]

10 miles north the guy should have shut up, could he even see him?

don't drop the plane to fly the mike! student could have ignored him, too.

 

[SkyHog]

I meant to post this back when it happend, but better late than never I suppose.

I was out flying around PTS a couple of weeks ago. We pick up quite a few other airports once you get up to about 3000 ASL. I was hearing Lawrence traffic and I heard a student call in
"Cessna 1234 student is downwind runway 33"
another guy comes on "Mooney 1234, 10 miles North, student over Lawrence are you left or right downwind."
Pretty honest question to start off with,
Student replies "uhhh....Cessna 1234 is on the west side of runway, preparing to turn base" he was obviously a little confused.
Reply back comes,
"Lawrence Traffic, Mooney 1234, student over Lawrence, thats not what i asked, I asked whether you are left or right downind"
Student Replies "uhhh....Cessna 1234 is on Final Runway 33"


I thought to myself that the guy in the Mooney was kind of out of line, not for asking the question in the first place, but for demanding an answer, by the student saying he was on the west side of the runway the Mooney knew where he was. Then after thinking about it later, the Mooney is 10 miles out and when the student states he is to the west he said preparing to turn base.

It is obviously something the student should have known, but I don't think he deserved to be heckled, I mean at that time the student was probably worrying a lot just about flying the airplane, a guy getting angry at him, probably wouldn't help anything.

Do you guys think this was a little out of line?

What a jerk. Those are the type of pilots we don't need flying around, harrassing people over the air. We have a few here that will argue with someone over their runway choice, when they are not even heading towards the runway, they're sitting on the ramp.

Inexcuseable.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Interesting post. My initial reaction is not to call that heckling, since, as you pointed out, it's a legitimate question.

Had I been in the Mooney, I probably would have rephrased the question the second time because it was a student. I might have asked if the student was making left or right turns in the pattern.

Out of line? I dunno. Sounds like he was sharper to the student than he needed to be (I try to cut students some slack), but it also seems to me that the student should have known whether he was making left or right traffic (for which the blame should be laid at the CFI's feet).

Of course, all of that is easy for me to say because I learned to fly both airplanes and helicopters at fields with non-standard traffic patterns, so I learned to always announce giving pattern direction (helicopter right downwind 27, or Cherokee left downwind 27, etc.).

 

[SkyHog]

Interesting post. My initial reaction is not to call that heckling, since, as you pointed out, it's a legitimate question.

Had I been in the Mooney, I probably would have rephrased the question the second time because it was a student. I might have asked if the student was making left or right turns in the pattern.

Out of line? I dunno. Sounds like he was sharper to the student than he needed to be (I try to cut students some slack), but it also seems to me that the student should have known whether he was making left or right traffic (for which the blame should be laid at the CFI's feet).

Of course, all of that is easy for me to say because I learned to fly both airplanes and helicopters at fields with non-standard traffic patterns, so I learned to always announce giving pattern direction (helicopter right downwind 27, or Cherokee left downwind 27, etc.).

Double Eagle (my home airport) is the same way. Standard pattern for 17 and 4, Non Standard for 22 and 35. I still find that unacceptable. The student should have known, but the Mooney should have also know that "west of the runway" meant the student was to the west and deduce it from there. Maybe a private convo with the student's CFI later to have the CFI go over it. Not on the radio. There's no need to fluster a new pilot like that.

 

[Frank Browne]

The student was probably nervous and concentrating very hard focusing on the task of landing his airplane. Making sure he wasn't forgetting anything on his checklist, correcting for drift..etc. Then some bozo with an ego problem comes on the radio demanding the student answer his question. I agree. The guy was a jerk.

 

[Brian Austin]

I wouldn't really label him a jerk.

First, the student should have been using the correct terminology for everyone's (including his) safety. Every one of us has a visual of the area in our head as we're approaching an airport. Heads on a swivel, listening to the radio and mentally placing aircraft as positions are called out. If we're expecting to hear certain things, it's automatic. If we're not hearing what we expect, it takes a few seconds to figure out what is being communicated.

Second, you don't know the situation in the Mooney. He could have had a really rough flight and been on edge. He could have been a CFI, going into teaching mode. You simply don't know the situation.

Not enough information to make a judgement call, in my opinion.

 

[Michael]

I will try and be more politre in the future.

The guy couldve been nicer, but i kinda understand where the mooney guy is coming from. He is 10 miles out. wont take him long to be in the pattern, and ALOT of students i observe tend to stretch the pattern a bit, in a cessna that could take some time. It was a good call, i wouldve asked twice, but not in the same tone.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Double Eagle (my home airport) is the same way. Standard pattern for 17 and 4, Non Standard for 22 and 35. I still find that unacceptable. The student should have known, but the Mooney should have also know that "west of the runway" meant the student was to the west and deduce it from there. Maybe a private convo with the student's CFI later to have the CFI go over it. Not on the radio. There's no need to fluster a new pilot like that.

Nick, I didn't mean to imply that the Mooney was being a nice guy. He certainly could have been a whole lot nicer about it, but I'm hesitant to call it out of line -- it was a legitimate question which he had (it seems to me) the right to get an answer to.

I am reminded though by the tone of the Mooney driver of a flight thru Philly class B when I got handed off to a different controller who asked me my destination (which I guess got swallowed up by the computer). I told him, and he fired back "Is that southest of northeast?".

That being not exactly in the pilot-controller glossary, I guess I keyed the mic and said "southeast of northeast?". He about tore me a new one with a very sharp "Is that southeast of northeast, affirnative or negative sir?"

About that time I realized that what he was trying to ask in a rather pecular way was whether my destination airport was southeast of Northeast Philly Airport. Which, while most folks call it Northeast Philly, the controllers are supposed to call it North Philadelphia.

He too could have been a whole lot nicer. He just picked a lousy way to ask the question...

 

[Rudy]

I definitely understood why the guy asked and wouldn't label him as a jerk, I was just kind of thinking it was a little over the top. I am sure the student had enough to think about. Probably made the student feel a little uncomfortable, which could be a really bad thing, especially so close to his landing.

 

[ejensen]

But did he use a left or right final.

When he said west I would have asked 'then you are left downwind', to confirm rather than demand.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

But did he use a left or right final.

When he said west I would have asked 'then you are left downwind', to confirm rather than demand.

Wouldn't that still have to be in the form of a question from the Mooney guy, so as to not be erroneously presumptive of the runway the student was using ?

 

[woodstock]

typically you don't call left as it is standard. right pattern, always call it. that's one clue.

if the guy just wanted to know if a certain runway was right or left pattern the student could have been a smartass and said "look it up on the chart"

 

[woodstock]

ps. my CFI always says - fly your own plane, let the others fly theirs. if the guy was in CFI mode he had no business being such. "fly your own plane - teach your own students"

 

[Frank Browne]

But did he use a left or right final.

When he said west I would have asked 'then you are left downwind', to confirm rather than demand.

Very early in my training I called "left final" at Fernindina once. My instructor explained after our return to CRG that final was final. Oops.

I still think the Mooney pilot was out of line considering the student identified himself as a student during his position calls.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Idiot? Maybe. Bad form? Oh, yeah. You find a "Radio Nazi" at every airport. Death to all Radio Nazis!

 

[Richard]

Yeah, the Mooney driver was a jerk. Well, maybe. What you have here is a failure to communicate to which both pilots contributed. The student by not using std phraseology, the Mooney for insisting on that phraseology. The student needs to come up to speed and hopefully his CFI was listening or the student will discuss with his CFI. The Mooney should have given the benefit of the doubt to the student and use his head and not so much his mouth. But, where was the Mooney pilot coming from? Perhaps he had some urgent task at hand. Things happen, our comms to be relatable to others in spite of those things.

 

[Frank Browne]

Yeah, the Mooney driver was a jerk. Well, maybe. What you have here is a failure to communicate to which both pilots contributed. The student by not using std phraseology, the Mooney for insisting on that phraseology. The student needs to come up to speed and hopefully his CFI was listening or the student will discuss with his CFI. The Mooney should have given the benefit of the doubt to the student and use his head and not so much his mouth. But, where was the Mooney pilot coming from? Perhaps he had some urgent task at hand. Things happen, our comms to be relatable to others in spite of those things.

Non-standard phraseology can, to some degree, be expected from student pilots. By stating his status as a student in his transmission, he should have been accorded some lattitude by the other pilot. I hope the student discusses the episode with his instructor, and I hope the Mooney driver get some anger management counseling.

 

[gibbons]

I think everyone is pretty much on the same page on this one.

The tone is the thing. I agree it was a good idea for the Mooney pilot to make sure he knew where the Cessna guy was, but there was no need for the "That's not what I asked..." crap. Everyone should remember that just because someone doesn't know if he's on right downwind or left downwind, that doesn't mean he can't throw a wicked right cross.

Every airport seems to have pilots who feel like the only way they can build themselves up is to talk someone else down. These pilots have neither safety nor advancing aviation in mind. They are simply mean or inconsiderate. Sounds like the Mooney guy may have been one of them.

Student pilots deserve our admiration and a little bit of room to make mistakes, especially on the radio. They are learning after all.

 

[ejensen]

Wouldn't that still have to be in the form of a question from the Mooney guy, so as to not be erroneously presumptive of the runway the student was using ?

He announced 33 but you're right a gentle question to confirm both. 'That puts you left downwind for 33, right?'.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

"Cessna 1234 student is downwind runway 33"
another guy comes on "Mooney 1234, 10 miles North, student over Lawrence are you left or right downwind."
Pretty honest question to start off with,
Student replies "uhhh....Cessna 1234 is on the west side of runway, preparing to turn base" he was obviously a little confused.

10 miles out? Mooney? Other aircraft is turning base? The Mooney is on an ego trip if s/he thinks s/he can't possibly become a conflict for the student. Proper (student) reply: "Left or right? Who the #$%# cares? Give it your best forward speed. I'll be ordering my second beer at the bar down the road before you get here."

 

[RotaryWingBob]

typically you don't call left as it is standard. right pattern, always call it. that's one clue.

if the guy just wanted to know if a certain runway was right or left pattern the student could have been a smartass and said "look it up on the chart"

I don't agree -- there's nothing wrong with calling "left base" etc. Don't assume anything -- in helos we usually do the reverse pattern...

 

[Richard]

"Left or right? Who the #$%# cares? Give it your best forward speed. I'll be ordering my second beer at the bar down the road before you get here."

May I use that if I ever need it?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

The Mooney guy might not have known the patterns and wanted to find out if it was left or right traffic without looking at a current chart and was perturbed he didn't get the info from the student as requested...

 

[SkyHog]

typically you don't call left as it is standard. right pattern, always call it. that's one clue.

That's the first I've heard of that, actually. I (in my whoppingly large experience of 150 hours) have always used both "Left Downwind" and "Right Downwind."

I have, however, heard that for holds, ATC will not say a direction if it is standard.....

 

[RotaryWingBob]

That's the first I've heard of that, actually. I (in my whoppingly large experience of 150 hours) have always used both "Left Downwind" and "Right Downwind."

I have, however, heard that for holds, ATC will not say a direction if it is standard.....

And I think that's an excellent habit, Nick. I was in the pattern one time at my home airport and announced left downwind 9. A fixed-wing pilot heard that and mistakenly thought 9 was left traffic. So he announced that he was going to enter the 45 for entry to left downwind 9. I politely corrected him by saying that 9 was left traffic for helicopters, and right traffic for fixed wing. He thanked me and a possible situation was avoided.

Something else to mull over for those who don't announce whether they're making left or right traffic:

91.126 (b) says that airplanes must make left traffic unless right traffic is indicated with visual signals. That does not apply to helicopters. 91.126 (b) (2) says that helicopters must avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft. That gives me the descretion (in a helo) to make either left or right traffic so long as I don't impede fixed-wing traffic.

So, even if an airport has a standard (left) traffic pattern, if I announce something like:

Podunk valley, helicopter turning base for 27, Podunk valley,

you don't have any clue whether I'm making left or right traffic.

Just another reason to indicate your turn direction.

 

[Brian Austin]

That's the first I've heard of that, actually. I (in my whoppingly large experience of 150 hours) have always used both "Left Downwind" and "Right Downwind."

Ditto here. "Standard" per the AF/D and "standard" per local customs aren't always the same at non-towered airports.

 

[gismo]

When I read Rudy's post, I wondered if perhaps the "radio Nazi" was actually the student's CFI on another flight. Other than that, IMO it is never a good idea to give another pilot a hard time on the radio. In addition, the idea of expecting communication perfection from a student is unreasonable and probably hippocritical assuming the Mooney pilot actually made a mistake or two when he was a student.

As to calling left/right legs, I always try to unless the frequency is really busy, in which case I skip the direction on some legs when I think it's obvious. I'm pretty sure the notion of not specifying the direction when it's "standard" only applies to ATC calling a hold. While it's true that left traffic is "standard" (for fixed wing a/c) AFaIK that simply means it's left traffic unless published othewise, not that you shouldn't announce which way you're turning.

And speaking of turning, I think it's better to announce your pattern position when you start each turn rather than at some ambiguous point along each leg. IOW "turning left base" and "turning final". Of course this doesn't apply when entering the pattern such as "entering midfield right downwind", "enterring left crosswind", or "five mile final" if straight in.

 

[woodstock]

And I think that's an excellent habit, Nick. I was in the pattern one time at my home airport and announced left downwind 9. A fixed-wing pilot heard that and mistakenly thought 9 was left traffic. So he announced that he was going to enter the 45 for entry to left downwind 9. I politely corrected him by saying that 9 was left traffic for helicopters, and right traffic for fixed wing. He thanked me and a possible situation was avoided.

Something else to mull over for those who don't announce whether they're making left or right traffic:

91.126 (b) says that airplanes must make left traffic unless right traffic is indicated with visual signals. That does not apply to helicopters. 91.126 (b) (2) says that helicopters must avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft. That gives me the descretion (in a helo) to make either left or right traffic so long as I don't impede fixed-wing traffic.

So, even if an airport has a standard (left) traffic pattern, if I announce something like:

Podunk valley, helicopter turning base for 27, Podunk valley,

you don't have any clue whether I'm making left or right traffic.

Just another reason to indicate your turn direction.

so if it says airplanes must make left traffic, then it *is* standard, so why call it unless the chart says right - i.e. non standard?

 

[RotaryWingBob]

so if it says airplanes must make left traffic, then it *is* standard, so why call it unless the chart says right - i.e. non standard?

Because what if the pilot misreads the chart or A/FD or assumes that the pattern is standard when it's not? It happens all the time, and calling out left or right helps to catch it.

Also, as I tried to point out, as a helo pilot I can fly a pattern at an airport with a standard pattern making either left or right traffic. If I don't tell you which I'm doing, you'll have no idea whether I'm making left or right turns.

IMO opinion, regardless of whether you're flying fixed- or rotary-wing, calling out the turn direction adds a margin of safety, and doesn't cost anything.

 

[Brian Austin]

so if it says airplanes must make left traffic, then it *is* standard, so why call it unless the chart says right - i.e. non standard?

Some people fly at airports so long, they never refer to the AF/D or chart after a while. The pattern may change for noise abatement, however. They'll continue flying the same old pattern, though. Payson, AZ, was like this recently.

 

[ejensen]

so if it says airplanes must make left traffic, then it *is* standard, so why call it unless the chart says right - i.e. non standard?

I like to hear left/right because not everyone follows the standard. An airport near hear has several corporate planes that like to enter right base (all standards patterns) to save time or whatever. Other folks might just be messed up. But I would hate to stake my life on the lack of a direction guaranteeing a left pattern.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

I like to hear left/right because not everyone follows the standard. An airport near hear has several corporate planes that like to enter right base (all standards patterns) to save time or whatever. Other folks might just be messed up. But I would hate to stake my life on the lack of a direction guaranteeing a left pattern.

That strikes me as illegal:

§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.

(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

(2) Each pilot of a helicopter or a powered parachute must avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft.

§ 91.127 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class E airspace.

(a) Unless otherwise required by part 93 of this chapter or unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class E airspace area, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class E airspace area must comply with the requirements of §91.126.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

That strikes me as illegal

Obviously it is, but will having "The other guy was doing something illegal" engraved on your tombstone really give you comfort regarding your untimely demise? Or worse yet, "The other guy made a mistake, but I refused to verify my assumption."?

 

[Dave Langton]

I could understand if the student pilot got a little rattled by this. I can imagine that if this were the students first solo, just breaking his concentration could be a problem.

If one gets to the point in aviation where one is driving a Mooney, does he really need the opinion of a student? (sorry). I determine what pattern to fly based on what the AFD says, not what a student does. If someone is flying non-standard anything, I'll stay out of their way and use my own judgement to do the right thing.

I believe that every responsible pilot has an obligation to look out for students. If and when they make the news, we all get a black eye out of it. Oh, yeah....I was a student once also.

I hope this incident didn't leave a bad taste in the students mouth...we need as many aviators as possible to ensure the continuation of general aviation.

But, that's just my humble opinion....

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

When I read Rudy's post, I wondered if perhaps the "radio Nazi" was actually the student's CFI on another flight. Other than that, IMO it is never a good idea to give another pilot a hard time on the radio. In addition, the idea of expecting communication perfection from a student is unreasonable and probably hippocritical assuming the Mooney pilot actually made a mistake or two when he was a student.

As to calling left/right legs, I always try to unless the frequency is really busy, in which case I skip the direction on some legs when I think it's obvious. I'm pretty sure the notion of not specifying the direction when it's "standard" only applies to ATC calling a hold. While it's true that left traffic is "standard" (for fixed wing a/c) AFaIK that simply means it's left traffic unless published othewise, not that you shouldn't announce which way you're turning.

And speaking of turning, I think it's better to announce your pattern position when you start each turn rather than at some ambiguous point along each leg. IOW "turning left base" and "turning final". Of course this doesn't apply when entering the pattern such as "entering midfield right downwind", "enterring left crosswind", or "five mile final" if straight in.

Calling on turns is great and very exact, if there is plenty of time. Otherwise pilots may have to jump in with a call whenever a blank in the airtime permits, no matter where they are in the sequencing.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Obviously it is, but will having "The other guy was doing something illegal" engraved on your tombstone really give you comfort regarding your untimely demise? Or worse yet, "The other guy made a mistake, but I refused to verify my assumption."?

No, but if I saw someone doing that, I'd probably call the FSDO.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

No, but if I saw someone doing that, I'd probably call the FSDO.

I might make a subtle direct suggestion before I hit the FSDO's phone lines, but overall I agree.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

How did a innocent little discussion about pilot to pilot civility devolve into this quagmine of intemperate discourse? Maybe we could just agree that all turns should be to the left unless otherwise specified, radio work should be comensurate with experience, good initial training sets the stage for future success and yelling at folks over the radio serves no constructive purpose. Next thing you know the media will be reporting about "Air Rage" in the skies over America. Cumbaya!

 

[Richard]

I like to hear left/right because not everyone follows the standard. An airport near hear has several corporate planes that like to enter right base (all standards patterns) to save time or whatever. Other folks might just be messed up. But I would hate to stake my life on the lack of a direction guaranteeing a left pattern.

That had been happening at a nearby arpt until the aprt manager decided it had to stop. He sent notification to the jet operators and posted the same in the FBOs and teminal bldgs. Included in the notification was his intent to report any traffic--including call signs--to the FSDO. It took some time but the result was meaningful.