Have a collection of "can I afford this" threads handy?

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OneSixDelta

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OneSixDelta
Hello,

I'm in the early stages of figuring out whether I can (or should) purchase an aircraft. I'm a new pilot, just a dozen hours past my PPL certificate.

My area doesn't have any flying clubs within 1hr drive and the rentals basically aren't available except in summer. (Heavily booked flight school fleet) Basically I need to decide... purchase, move, drive hours or just go back into R/C planes and upgrade my flight simulator.

I know this question has probably been discussed to death, if you have any threads handy, I would appreciate some links, I'm having trouble finding with the search.

I'd probably fall into the older model C172/similar category and flying for personal/fun hopefully around 70-80 hours per year.

I've been doing my homework but still trying to find all the hidden costs, average costs, noobies like myself don't think about like taxes/registration that you wish you knew your first time.

Thanks for any links, tips, scares... :)
 
Stop the presses, a newly minted pilot wants a C172.
 
The airplanes condition, and where you bring it will largely decide the cost of the annual inspection. Also when looking for an older airplane you must take Total Time (TT) of airframe, and engine time SMOH (Since Major Overhaul) into consideration. I believe the TBO (Time Between Overhaul) for a 172 is about 1800 hours. You'll find that engine hours have a large part in deciding the value of an airplane, as once the engine is timed out, a rebuild is ridiculously expensive.
 
I should have added, just using some online calculators, it seems like I'd be in the 7-9000/yr range. The only costs I really know with some certainty would be fuel $5.75, hangar 1800, insurance 1100.
 
$10k/year for a 172 is probably a good budget including reserves if you fly 100 hours or less per year and have a modest plane with minimal intentions of upgrades. Figure about $3k before you turn the key. If you can afford it, then go for it!

You could very possibly find a partner for the plane, which will cut your fixed costs in half, which means you can afford to fly more, and with two people the plane should fly more. The more the plane flies, the lower your variable costs. Flying a plane is good.
 
16D-welcome.

First access your mission: you already said Training and then occasional vacations. Depending on how far your vacations are that would change from a training mission to a long xcountry plane. That doubles the cost.

You can call your local airports for costs of Tie downs; covered parking and hangars and then plug that into your spread sheet of costs.

Second you find out your gas prices.

Third you calculate your fixed costs: hangar, taxes, Insurance and annual inspection.

Fourth you calculate your variable hourly costs: fuel, oil, maintenance.

Fifth you calculate your airplane loan if there is one.

For example:

I bought a Cherokee for $20k cash so I had no payment. The plane had a fresh annual and was ready for me to take my ppl training.

The hangar rent was $120 per month or $1440 per year.
Insurance on $20k hull was $485 per year.
KS has a tax exemption for planes older than 30 years so I got it.
Annual inspection was $600 per year Starting at the end of my 1st yr.

So my fixed costs were:

Rent $1440
Insurance $485 (i chose not to buy insurance but for illustration included)
Taxes $50 one time filing fee for exemption
Annual inspection $included first year

So $1975 first year and $2575 fixed cost per year there after.

Now the variable cost which increased with each hour actually flying the plane:

I had a mogas STC so fuel was always about half of av gas. 9 years ago it was $1.69 or less per gallon at 8gph so about $12 per hour fuel.

Fuel $13 per hour (now it would be $26= $3.30 * 8 gph)
Maintenance $6-7 per hour
Oil usage 1 at in 9 hrs.

Over the 9 years I owned the Cherokee the fuel doubled but the maintenance stayed constant, the hangar rent actually came down a bit with more hangars now available.

So I think it is safe to say that if you buy a mogas STC 172 or Cherokee you can plan on about $225 per month; and about $26 per hour to fly. So if you fly about 100 hrs a year this might work out to less than $5000 per year total.

you can get a bit faster plane by getting a 180hp engine and this would only minimally change your total costs but if you go to a Hi performance or a complex this would double these costs pretty quickly.

So take my numbers, call your insurance broker, airport for hangar and fuel prices and then fit it in your calculations.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
$10k/year for a 172 is probably a good budget including reserves if you fly 100 hours or less per year and have a modest plane with minimal intentions of upgrades. Figure about $3k before you turn the key. If you can afford it, then go for it!

You could very possibly find a partner for the plane, which will cut your fixed costs in half, which means you can afford to fly more, and with two people the plane should fly more. The more the plane flies, the lower your variable costs. Flying a plane is good.
Click to expand...

I agree. If you can't find a club or partnership go ahead and buy the plane you want and you can afford without a partner and then you can always sell half or 3/4's of the plane and get some partners to lower your total costs significantly.

I have seen as many as 7 guys fly one airplane without getting in each others way very often.

one last word of advice: Buy the plane exactly like you want to own it and fly it. Do not buy a fixer upper do not buy a plane planning to add avionics.
 
Good advice so far, thank you.

I'm tall, trained in a C172 then moved to a 1978 C152. The aircraft will be for 1-3 people and a couple bags 90% of the time.

I'd like a 4 place simply for the room and feeling more comfortable on max weight without having to fly with partial fuel to make things work.

I'm not concerned with the looks, color, originality or bells & whistles. I want something that's safe and as easy as possible on the maintenance bills with parts/service available as readily as possible. I realize it's a first plane after all.
 
I like 172's but they have a price premium over the Piper Cherokee but identical performance.

The conti 300 is a maintenance hog so I would look for a Lycoming 172.

You should sit in a Cherokee to see if you fit. I am 6' tall with a very long torso so if you are a normal 6'3" you might well fit.

I seemed to have more height in my Cherokee than an A36 I ferried to Florida. Kept hitting my head in the Bonanza. Maybe it is just that the seats are more adjustable in the Cherokee.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I like 172's but they have a price premium over the Piper Cherokee but identical performance.

The conti 300 is a maintenance hog so I would look for a Lycoming 172.

You should sit in a Cherokee to see if you fit. I am 6' tall with a very long torso so if you are a normal 6'3" you might well fit.

I seemed to have more height in my Cherokee than an A36 I ferried to Florida. Kept hitting my head in the Bonanza. Maybe it is just that the seats are more adjustable in the Cherokee.
Click to expand...

I liked an Archer II (1978?) aside from the single door and lack of shade, I only did some basic maneuvers on a perfect day though so it's hard to compare one to the other.
 
OneSixDelta said:
I liked an Archer II (1978?) aside from the single door and lack of shade, I only did some basic maneuvers on a perfect day though so it's hard to compare one to the other.
Click to expand...

Interior Archer II front seat is the same height and width. I think they put 4" more leg room in the back seat from what I hear over the Cherokee.

I think you'd fit. It could save you $5k on purchase over a 172 same year and condition. Easy to work on yourself.

If it were me, I would buy a Cherokee if I wanted the best price flying for 2+2 (adults/children), if I wanted more room then I would go to the 182 with mogas stc for second best bargain (3+1 adult/children) and if I wanted more speed then I would go to the I think it is the E225 Bonanza V tail (2+2) 225hp with mogas STC.

Your biggest expense after purchase will be fuel. Mogas is half the price of avgas.

Without autopilot or fancy panel:

Cherokee 115 mph 8 gph mogas (can be bought $15-20k)
182 150 mph 12 gph mogas (can be bought $33-40k)
Bonanza 165 mph 12 gph mogas (can be bought $20-30k)

Add $20k for fancy panel, $30k fancy panel with autopilot.
 
Partnerships are very workable f you get the right person/people. Even with 3-4 involved it will still spend 98% of its life in the hangar, but it will dramatically reduce costs if the patterns of usage allow for partnership.
 
Depending on where you live, alcohol free mogas can be hard to find and even if you are in an area that has it, you often need to truck it in. It isn't an option here in Northern Cal. I don't know anyone around here who uses it and I have only heard of one airport near the Bay area that has it. All of the off airport gas stations around here have alcohol in the gas. 100LL is coming down though. I have been paying under $5 the last couple of weeks.
 
John221us said:
Depending on where you live, alcohol free mogas can be hard to find and even if you are in an area that has it, you often need to truck it in. It isn't an option here in Northern Cal. I don't know anyone around here who uses it and I have only heard of one airport near the Bay area that has it. All of the off airport gas stations around here have alcohol in the gas. 100LL is coming down though. I have been paying under $5 the last couple of weeks.
Click to expand...

Yea, mogas won't be an option for me unless it really takes off. (Yea, lame pun) :)
 
mogas availability map

http://flyunleaded.com/mapusairports.html

What you burn is your business and I am not trying to talk anyone into anything however if there is someone out there with a thrift mindset I provide this information for:

An Engineer friend of mine said blended gas cannot be pumped, shipped mixed interstate. So all Ethanol is added locally at the point of delivery. The jobbers carry mogas and ethanol and mix it upon delivery.

One Engineer I allowed to fly my Cherokee got a 55 gallon drum at his house, a filter and hand pump from TSC and his jobber friend filled it up with mogas. He would then bring 15 gallons out once or twice a week and fill the Cherokee when he flew.

I personally called a local supplier and he said that all Phillips 66 stations only sell mogas as ethanol costs them more than their cost of gasoline and they manufacture gasoline only.

So I always bought my mogas from this group of Company gas stations.

If I lived in CA or some where that mogas was not available from the pumps considering it is 1/2 the cost of av fuel I would seriously consider getting a 150 gallon tank at my home or work and get a jobber fill it up.

The savings of fuel cost on my Cherokee would have more than paid for a New Engine, New prop and money left over for a used G430W.

I chose to pocket those savings and buy a Comanche. But had I kept the Cherokee with mogas I could have easily funded all manner of things using mogas. When I flew cross country if I couldn't find mogas thats no problem I would just add avgas. No trouble mixing it.
 
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
If I lived in CA or some where that mogas was not available from the pumps considering it is 1/2 the cost of av fuel I would seriously consider getting a 150 gallon tank at my home or work and get a jobber fill it up.
Click to expand...

The difference around here is about a buck a gallon, or about 20%, but even Mogas is pretty expensive compared to the rest of the country. I paid $4.89 for 100LL last and about $3.70 for premium Mogas.
 
Thanks for the replies so far.

Just to switch gears a bit, what would the savings be for sticking with a 152 (or similar)? (ignoring initial cost to purchase + sales tax)

An annual should be cheaper, insurance is cheaper, fuel burn is less. (Anything else?) It doesn't fit the bill perfectly of course but it's still an aircraft, and an aircraft that I enjoy flying.

I'm just curious, maybe it's somewhat marginal in the end until you get into the complex/HP world.
 
OneSixDelta said:
Thanks for the replies so far.

Just to switch gears a bit, what would the savings be for sticking with a 152 (or similar)? (ignoring initial cost to purchase + sales tax)

An annual should be cheaper, insurance is cheaper, fuel burn is less. (Anything else?) It doesn't fit the bill perfectly of course but it's still an aircraft, and an aircraft that I enjoy flying.

I'm just curious, maybe it's somewhat marginal in the end until you get into the complex/HP world.
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The annual on any similar vintage fixed gear, fixed prop four banger will probably be about the same. Insurance will be about the same (The difference is mostly based on hull value, so same value, same cost. I pay about $600/yr on a $25K hull value). Tiedown or hangar would be the same. A 152 will suck less gas than a Cherokee, but a Cherokee is still pretty good (7 to 9 GPH vs maybe 5 to 7). Aquisition costs for a 152 (vs a 150) is pretty similar to a Cherokee or even more. The Cherokee will hold 50 Gallons of fuel and has four seats (you can't use them all and full fuel, though).
 
John221us said:
The annual on any similar vintage fixed gear, fixed prop four banger will probably be about the same. Insurance will be about the same (The difference is mostly based on hull value, so same value, same cost. I pay about $600/yr on a $25K hull value). Tiedown or hangar would be the same. A 152 will suck less gas than a Cherokee, but a Cherokee is still pretty good (7 to 9 GPH vs maybe 5 to 7). Aquisition costs for a 152 (vs a 150) is pretty similar to a Cherokee or even more. The Cherokee will hold 50 Gallons of fuel and has four seats (you can't use them all and full fuel, though).
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Good to know. When you mention a Cherokee, are you referring to like a 150/160? I need to do my research on that line and the variations.
 
OneSixDelta said:
Good to know. When you mention a Cherokee, are you referring to like a 150/160? I need to do my research on that line and the variations.
Click to expand...

It is a Cherokee 140. It had a 150 HP O-320 from the factory. There is an STC to upgrade it to 160 HP by putting in higher compression cylinders and many have done that. Mine is 150 HP. It has about 900 lbs. useful load. Full fuel is 300 lbs. So, you can actually carry quite a bit. They aren't the best climbers but will probably out climb a C150 and cruise is about 110 KTS indicated. They go for about $25K or less for a decent example.
 
John221us said:
The difference around here is about a buck a gallon, or about 20%, but even Mogas is pretty expensive compared to the rest of the country. I paid $4.89 for 100LL last and about $3.70 for premium Mogas.
Click to expand...



100LL is over $7.13 here in South Florida
 
Zhunter said:
100LL is over $7.13 here in South Florida
Click to expand...

There are places around here that you will pay that much (big airports at major FBOs), but my field has been $4.89 for a couple of weeks. I flew to Big Bear last weekend and they were $4.95.
 
What terms or documents should I be searching for when researching any/all one time and recurring taxes? I've found information on (MN) sales tax for the initial but I don't really know about other fees, what is paid yearly and so on.
 
docmirror said:
Stop the presses, a newly minted pilot wants a C172.
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with that.

Ted DuPuis said:
$10k/year for a 172 is probably a good budget including reserves if you fly 100 hours or less per year and have a modest plane with minimal intentions of upgrades. Figure about $3k before you turn the key. If you can afford it, then go for it!

You could very possibly find a partner for the plane, which will cut your fixed costs in half, which means you can afford to fly more, and with two people the plane should fly more. The more the plane flies, the lower your variable costs. Flying a plane is good.
Click to expand...

I agree with Ted's advice. I also suggest you check in to the cherokee line.
 
Just a thought, but I wonder if it would help to have a separate forum category on recommended airplanes for missions/operating costs???

Kind of a one stop shopping place for this info. I am in no way complaining about the number of threads like this (I have started many such myself), but wonder if it would be easier for folks to research some of the ideas that have been discussed before?

Thoughts?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Just a thought, but I wonder if it would help to have a separate forum category on recommended airplanes for missions/operating costs???

Kind of a one stop shopping place for this info. I am in no way complaining about the number of threads like this (I have started many such myself), but wonder if it would be easier for folks to research some of the ideas that have been discussed before?

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

A nice thread or database like this would be priceless.. could even build a worksheet on the free Office online to crunch numbers - that way you could insert local fuel prices and crap like that..
 
supernovae said:
A nice thread or database like this would be priceless.. could even build a worksheet on the free Office online to crunch numbers - that way you could insert local fuel prices and crap like that..
Click to expand...

Yea, a nice little Google doc would be good, kind of similar to http://ben.com/flying/costown.html although it doesn't include the initial taxes or yearly costs with registration/etc that I'm still a bit fuzzy on.
 
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