Hartzell props

[AcroBoy]

At the recommendation of my mechanics, we sent my two props to Hartzell for tear down and inspection. They were working fine, but since they hadn't been disassembled in ten years, we decided to go to the factory under the assumption that who would know more, have the parts, and be best able to fix any problem.

They estimated ten days in the shop. After two weeks, we called and they said they hadn't gotten to them. After three weeks they said they had started the job, but were delayed by computer problems.

Next call says there was an authorized repair by another shop, and if Hartzell couldn't undo the work, the hubs would have to go back to the previous shop.

Few days later, call says the previous shop can't be found, and Hartzell can't do the work, so the hubs are now red tagged. Cost for repairs to both? 19k.

Cost for two new props- 21k. And, by the way, Hartzell happens to have a new set of props in the shop ready to go.

At ths point it is probably not worth having the props shipped to another shop, and besides, once red tagged, can another shop declare a part serviceable?

Any other ideas or similar experiences?

 

[wsuffa]

Are they 2 blade or 3 blade props? When mine hit TBO (mandatory per type certificate) and had an AD that had to be done, it was cheaper to get 3 blade prop than to replace the 2 blade. And it was cheaper to replace than to do an overhaul. I went the 2 blade route 'cause I didn't want the extra weight.

So, no, I'm not surprised. If for no reason other than Hartzell trying to limit liability (they gave me a bit of a hard time when I wanted a 2 month TBO extension so we could comply at annual, FAA was great....)

 

[Ted]

A lot of the old props out there have a number of ADs on them, especially on the hubs. As such, STCs for new props have become increasingly popular. Hartzell recently released an STC on the Aztec, for instance, that I'm considering doing when the time comes. When my instructor's Comanche 180 needed a new prop, he found it was competitive on price to replace the 2-bladed Hartzell with a 3-bladed McCauley which is quieter and has no ADs on it.

If it's got a red tag on it by Hartzell, I doubt any prop shop will remove that. You're probably best off getting two new props. I would look for an STC for something better. They actually have made some improvements. I don't know what you fly, but there are a lot of STCs out there for better engines that require better props. Might be a good time to consider upgrading the props to handle future upgraded engines.

 

[rotorhead1026]

Any other ideas or similar experiences?

At this point you really don't know what has happened. Make Hartzell ship them back to you, red tags or no. Let a reputable prop shop have a look (no, I don't consider Hartzell reputable) - you'll at least know where you stand. I hope Hartzell doesn't try to stick you for some sort of "inspection" fee, especially if the condition of the propellers has been misrepresented. Now to be fair it could well be that they are in fact beyond economical repair, but I don't trust that operation at all.

 

[BiffJ]

First thing to do is take your serial numbers and models and look through service bulletins and AD's to see if your props have some issues that should have been taken care of earlier. They've updated a lot of bearings and the method of blade retention on a lot of props. If yours are an older style you might be glad they red tagged them. On the other hand you're probably screwed on those particular props. If the manufacturer says they're no good the FAA will probably take their word for it. Check and see if McCauley or MT have props STC'd for your purpose. You might get a better price. Get all your parts back from Hartzell and check serials against your logs to make sure you got your parts back. You may have some saleable parts. Good blades are frequently in demand and may help offset the cost of the new props.
Frank

 

[d.grimm]

Personally, I would never buy Hartzell propellers with their AD and hub history.
Dave

 

[Doggtyred]

Next call says there was an authorized repair by another shop, and if Hartzell couldn't undo the work, the hubs would have to go back to the previous shop.

Few days later, call says the previous shop can't be found, and Hartzell can't do the work, so the hubs are now red tagged.

So can someone explain to me (As I'm ignorant as to why)....if a previous repair was an authorized one, why Hartzell would have to undo the work.. and why the previous shop would have to do the work?

 

[PittsDriver]

Personally, I would never buy Hartzell propellers with their AD and hub history.
Dave

I guess it depends on the prop. I've got nearly 400 hours of high Gz, gyroscopic tumbling action on my Claw and besides being the most amazing prop ever mounted on an aerobatic airplane, it hasn't yet slung a trace of grease or had any problem what so ever

 

[Ted]

I guess it depends on the prop. I've got nearly 400 hours of high Gz, gyroscopic tumbling action on my Claw and besides being the most amazing prop ever mounted on an aerobatic airplane, it hasn't yet slung a trace of grease or had any problem what so ever

I have two Hartzell props and have run many more for many hours. I've been quite happy with them. There are certain props that I would not put on my plane, but I am happy with the Hartzell ones.

 

[Ted]

Jim,

After re-reading this and thinking about it some, I'm wondering if the previous repair by the prop shop was authorized or unauthorized? Or, did the prop shop say it was authorized, but Hartzell say it was unauthorized? If the manufacturer says one thing and an independent shop says another, chances are the manufacturer is right.

This can go both ways from the perspective of being the answer you want to hear. In my case, not long ago one of my propellers got dinged up from landing on an unimproved strip. My mechanic dressed the blades to clean them up, and then wanted me to have the prop overhauled with new blades. I made him go back to the Hartzell spec for what was allowable as far as dings are concerned. Turns out that it was still well within the limits. That made me happy, and saved the money.

So, the news isn't always bad.

 

[AcroBoy]

The props are original from 1980, so some time back the work was done. At first glance the repair appeared to be done with an approved repair, but on further research was not. The shop is long out of business, and the documentation poor.

Because of the delay, Hartzell offered a 15% discount on a new set of props along with free return shipping of their props and mine. Bottom line is 22K, less the work of the mechanic's labor. A lot more than the 6-8k I had budgeted.

Not a lot of other options as far as I can see.

 

[Ted]

The props are original from 1980, so some time back the work was done. At first glance the repair appeared to be done with an approved repair, but on further research was not. The shop is long out of business, and the documentation poor.

This sounds like what I would expect given your story. And I'm pretty sure 1980 puts the props well past their recommended year limit.

Because of the delay, Hartzell offered a 15% discount on a new set of props along with free return shipping of their props and mine. Bottom line is 22K, less the work of the mechanic's labor. A lot more than the 6-8k I had budgeted.

Not a lot of other options as far as I can see.

That sounds like they're making an effort to be reasonable, even though writing that check hurts. Last year I had to do a top overhaul on my left engine at 600 SMOH with new cylinders on it at overhaul (a field overhaul done two owners ago). Definitely not what I had budgeted for, and Superior wasn't about to offer any help. Since the engine had a bunch of hours left on it until TBO, I opted to put new factory cylinders on, which with 300 or 400 hours on them now are running great. But writing that check still hurt.

It still may be worth looking into some STCs to see if there's something that at least gives you extra cool factor for your investment, but that's a personal preference.

 

[AcroBoy]

They have been reasonable, and were apologetic about the lack of communication and delays. I like MT props, but there is no STC for my engines, so it looks like Hartzell.

 

[Ted]

Out of curiosity, what airplane/engines?

 

[AcroBoy]

1980 B-55 Baron, IO 470L

 

[rotorhead1026]

They have been reasonable, and were apologetic about the lack of communication and delays. I like MT props, but there is no STC for my engines, so it looks like Hartzell.

Jim, I'd still like to see a third party look at those - especially if all it costs you is time. Of course, if time is an issue then this has already taken too long ...

 

[Ted]

Lance's Baron has 3-bladed props. They sure do make the plane look cool. Might be worth considering.

 

[AcroBoy]

The props on my Baron were and will be three blades. I was hoping for an STC from MT, since their props are 20 lbs lighter, each.

 

[gismo]

Lance's Baron has 3-bladed props. They sure do make the plane look cool. Might be worth considering.

I went with new props when one of the hubs cracked on the McCauley 2 blades that came with the plane. I chose three blades for the promised cabin noise reduction, higher resale value, and because I was thinking of upsizing the engines to 300 hp (which I did a year later) and at that power level 3 blades are pretty much mandatory. I picked Hartzel because they were slightly lighter and a bit less expensive than McCauley (plus I was unhappy that one of the Mac's had failed).

I do think I lost a couple knots of TAS and while the noise is slightly less, the improvement isn't enough to eliminate the need for ANR headsets. And there's one other downside, they get in the way. I'm getting better at avoiding this but I can't count the number of times I've hit my head or banged a shin getting stuff out of the nose baggage compartment.

BTW, I shopped around for a good price and I think I got more than 15% off the list price from a high volume distributor. Perhaps you could work a better deal than the one the factory has proposed. You might even be able to combine what the factory offered with an additional discount from a distributor. I think I ended up going with Propellers Direct out of Florida.

 

[AcroBoy]

Might have been able to shop around for a better price. The factory offered me the price for FBO's, which I assume is what they charge maintenance shops, and they threw in free shipping of the new props along with my old ones for free, so I can't complain too much.

Anyone interested in some good condition Hartzell blades for a three blade prop from a B-55 with IO-470L engines? How about polished spinners?

 

[Ted]

The props on my Baron were and will be three blades. I was hoping for an STC from MT, since their props are 20 lbs lighter, each.

Looks like they do have for C-E Barons:

http://www.mt-propeller.com/en/entw/stcs/beech_95.htm

Might be doable on your 470s. I'd thought about some 4-bladed props on the Aztec, since they'd look cool. Maybe when it comes time that I actually need new props.

I went with new props when one of the hubs cracked on the McCauley 2 blades that came with the plane. I chose three blades for the promised cabin noise reduction, higher resale value, and because I was thinking of upsizing the engines to 300 hp (which I did a year later) and at that power level 3 blades are pretty much mandatory. I picked Hartzel because they were slightly lighter and a bit less expensive than McCauley (plus I was unhappy that one of the Mac's had failed).

Funny how that works. Everything breaks sometime.

I do think I lost a couple knots of TAS and while the noise is slightly less, the improvement isn't enough to eliminate the need for ANR headsets. And there's one other downside, they get in the way. I'm getting better at avoiding this but I can't count the number of times I've hit my head or banged a shin getting stuff out of the nose baggage compartment.

The extra blades do tend to decrease speed a small amount. The benefit tends to be for cool appeal and bigger engines. Of course, if you have bigger engines, you'll probably end up with more speed.

I have noticed dealing with the 3-bladed props on the 310 that they do tend to get in the way working around the plane. 2-bladed props may not look as cool, but they do tend to be more practical. That said, I'll still go for the 3-bladed. Call me vain.