Hangar space issue

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by midwestpa24, Oct 22, 2020.

  1. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    I started to post this in another thread, but didn't want to hijack or derail it.

    All we keep hearing about is the decline of GA, less pilots, less airplanes, etc., etc. Then everywhere I go, I hear about hangar space being at a premium if even available. Airports all around have waiting lists years long.

    Now I know the common problem is non flying airplanes tying up hangar space, even though not true here, but what is causing the supply/demand issue for hangars in a declining industry? Are more people preferring to hangar rather than tie down outside?

    I'd love to hear other people's theories. Given I am an airport manager, it could be useful.
     
  2. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

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    You can drive by KPOU on RT 376 and see hangers full of construction equipment.
    Phone calls to the airport manager are never returned.
     
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  3. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Fewer airports?
    And, yea, tiedowns seem to have gone out of favor.
     
  4. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    If that airport has received federal funding in the last twenty years, the FAA would love to hear about that. A little thing called grant assurances.
     
  5. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy En-Route

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    We are in the process of building a 16,000 sq ft hangar at our field and we haven’t even broke ground yet and it will rented out completely.
     
  6. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    I can see that here, our tie downs are only used for transients anymore. Granted, in our climate zone your airplane would be unusable for months at a time if left outside, not to mention what it does to the plane.
     
  7. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

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    My buddy worked in the tower there for years. He sent a letter to the FAA about it.
    Three weeks later he was transferred to Arizona.

    They are in the process of building a really big corporate hanger on the southeast side of the field.
    It completely blocks the view from the tower in that direction.
    The guys in the tower complained. Guess what happened?
     
  8. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    Local politics can be like that unfortunately. That being said, the FAA regional or national offices are above local politics, and can cut through it. The airport manager or whoever is in charge will get the message when the federal funding not only gets cut off, but also have to repay the last 20 years of grants.

    Pretty sure this is the right office

    https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/arp/offices/app/app500/app520/
     
  9. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

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    At some airports it can be very challenging to increase the supply. At KBED, any new construction of hangars would be considered an airport expansion... which would drive the NIMBY crowd into a frenzy. At one time, there was a waiting list for hangars that was seven years long. I think that list got shorter when ma$$port started to charge a relatively small fee ($50?) to be on the waiting list... and charged each year. hmmm, ma$$port has what incentive to build more hangars? There has been a long waiting list for years and years and year and absolutely no new T-hangars built.

    I had a hangar at KBED, but bailed when the monthly rent went from $505/month to $606/month (with promises of future increases), for a T-hangar with electric bi-fold doors and a single 15amp circuit.
     
  10. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Line Up and Wait

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    I’ll call or write a letter for you. I have zero skin in the game so they have nothing to hold over me. Just need the accurate info so send along.
     
  11. kyleb

    kyleb Final Approach

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    The reason there are not more t-hangars at "popular" airports is the airport is trying to hold space for the next big-box corporate hangar which will come with jet tenants who buy lots of gas and pay lots of property taxes.

    The rabble with their piston rattletraps are not their preferred customers.
     
  12. midwestpa24

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    That is probably true. Many of the airports in highly populated areas are land locked and real estate in those areas comes at a premium. There isn't a square inch that isn't accounted for.

    Here in Iowa, at least at my airport, that isn't as big of an issue. The problem we run into that despite demand, we can't price the supply high enough to fund building new. Its not a popular idea to utilize local taxpayer dollars to fund what is essentially a toy box for a few. There are some grants that can be used, but hangar construction is a low priority for those grant programs.
     
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  13. mondtster

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    I've lived in the same location (which I believe is not far from you) for the last 10 years, and have had at least one hangar throughout the entire time period. I have also been very active at two of the nearby airports for the entire time. From what I've seen, the level of demand for hangars has not changed in that period of time. The hangars have always been full and there have been one or two people on a waiting list.

    I really suspect the airports in this area have an adequate number of T-hangars. Corporate and/or box hangars that will fit an airplane with a wingspan of over 40' are the big problem. There are very few, none are available, and when someone wants to build a privately owned hangar the airport sponsors seem to put up blockades to keep that from happening. It took a friend of mine 3 years of fighting and a high power attorney to force one of the local airport sponsors' hand and lease him some land to build an adequate building to house his airplanes.
     
  14. mondtster

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    Do it like other states do. If someone wants a big toybox hangar they can build it themselves.
     
  15. midwestpa24

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    That we do! It's the fastest growing part of the airport! But due to the cost of entry, it makes it hard for the average Joe airplane owner.
     
  16. donjohnston

    donjohnston Cleared for Takeoff

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    Seen this exact same thing at many airports.
     
  17. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf Pattern Altitude

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    We've got hangars here, but that's because nobody wants to live here. Sooooo, I'll keep enjoying my cheap hangar and hope I have a job until retirement.
     
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  18. MacFly

    MacFly Pre-takeoff checklist

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    My local airport where I hangar my plane has a prohibition in the lease agreement about "non-flying" airplanes, but clearly states that "arrangements can be made".

    There's a large seasonal component here. The rental here is month-by-month. Come the fall...the snowbirds start flying south and taking their airplanes with them. Rental here is $160/month. I have my eye on a nice hangar facing the late-day sun with a nice floor just down the row. I'm just waiting for the guy to check out for the winter then I'm going to claim his hangar.
     
  19. kyleb

    kyleb Final Approach

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    Why late day and not early morning sun? Even better, a hangar facing South (which is ideal, IMO).
     
  20. TommyG

    TommyG Pattern Altitude

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    I think the whole decline in GA went away with basic med. Ever since GA has been going up. Student numbers have been climbing.
     
  21. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    It's actually ACO-100 (APP-520 hands out money but doesn't enforce grant assurances) but the OP should start by speaking with the designated compliance specialist in his/her Airport Distrift Office (ADO). Will likely start with an informal part 13 complaint and then go from there.
     
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  22. mondtster

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    Glad to hear it. Having to buy or build my own hangar would be a gatekeeper for me personally, but I know the lack of ability to rent or build an adequate hangar has kept some people I know from buying an airplane or moving up into something more capable.
     
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  23. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I suspect there's a growing split between middle class and wealthy. In some parts of the country, such as around large populated cities, demand is as big as ever.

    Small municipal airports in older rust belt areas are definitely hurting. I'm wondering if COVID-19 will ultimately spread more people out throughout the country.
     
  24. MacFly

    MacFly Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Many factors, including the direction the hangar faces. They include...plowing schedule and proximity to the fuel truck hangar, distance to the FBO and distance to the bathroom. South-facing hangar is not ideal, all things considered, in this latitude at this airport in the winter.

    They also have a clause that discourages "non-airplane storage"...but I'm hauling my boat over there this weekend. The money that boat storage alone in that hangar will save me for that four months makes the hangar rental a net positive. The lease agreement is a very fluid thing, I have found.
     
  25. chartbundle

    chartbundle Cleared for Takeoff

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    Our airport just finally resolved a water flow issue that was preventing any more building on the airport. They already have 2 people starting the paperwork to build larger hangars. The problem is that compared to the current lease rate the city gets for the 10 existing T hangars it doesn't make sense for an investor(or the city) to build any more T hangars even though the space is now usable..
     
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  26. MacFly

    MacFly Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I’m midway between two airports....10 miles in either direction. One rents a large T-hangar for $160/month and has A&P and an avionics shop on-site (and a restaurant and fully staffed FBO)...the other has the same size T-hangar for $120/month but it’s a small rural airport with a distinct lack of amenities like that, but they also have a couple of private hangars, really quite large, for sale for around $30,000.
     
  27. NoHeat

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    I'm sure that's good info for somebody who has a complaint about a specific airport, but that might not be the OP. In fact, the OP described himself as an airport manager, and expressed no complaint about a specific airport, but was just wondering generally what was going on at other airports.
     
  28. Jumpmaster

    Jumpmaster Pre-takeoff checklist

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    At KCOE, our supply of land available for hangar leases has nearly run out. The Airport Director estimates less than 1 year of available supply at the current rate of new Leasees. And the County Commissioners shrug their shoulders and say there is no growth in pilots in Idaho. Ya right. The main driver for hangar space here seems to be either for turbines or higher end GA, e.g Cirrus or whatever. We also have several large commercial hangers under construction that will be for the refurbishment of interiors for private jets and a new FBO. Apparently, they will not paint because they don’t want to spend the $$$ for ID DEQ permits. The hangars and FBO are being built by Stancraft and if you know them, they make wood boats that start around $400K for a 23-25’. Absolutely gorgeous, handcrafted vessels. So I don’t think they are looking for piston poppers like me. Finally, I spoke with a young man the other day who says he is building a 100’x100’ hangar for piston GA aircraft. He said he has run the numbers and claims he can make money by subleasing spaces to other GA pilots. No idea how many planes you can get into 10,000 ft but he says people are beating down his door to secure a place. If it were me, I would creat an LLC and condo-ize parking stalls so my financing cost are off-set by capital contributions with monthly assessments that cover the operations and maintenance cost. Wonder what a parking stall in a hangar would sell for?
     
  29. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Pattern Altitude

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    At my airport, it’s because people that have nothing to do with aviation have figured out hangars are cheaper than any other space of similar size/door. Just for curiosity I’d love to know the percentage that have planes (flyable or not) vs those that don’t. That being said, I don’t know of anyone looking for a hangar in my area unable to acquire one and the hangar association/airport bills are being paid.
     
  30. Hang 4

    Hang 4 Line Up and Wait

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    My airport has a 3 page waiting list for T hangars. There is plenty of room to build more, and some very loose plans to do that. I considered building a row of T's myself with the idea of being cash neutral and having a free one for myself, but no way to make the numbers work. They have done a good job of kicking out non-aviation renters and even planes that have not been operated for years. Finally got the phone call yesterday that if #1 and #2 on the list don't reply by tomorrow, I'm in.
     
  31. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

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    Thanks Matt.
    Since I have no skin in the game, I'm becoming a fly in the ointment over there. I don't even use the airport. It's 7.1 miles by road from my house and I haven't landed there in 6 years.
    I have started doing all the public meetings, and public events there with a growing cadre of disaffected pilots and their families.
    It's slowly having an impact.
    One of the things I'm doing is compiling a list of everyone in every hanger.
    Information is power. It turns out that when you have a name and an address associated with a hanger full of illegal stuff, they are more amenable to cleaning up their act.
    They can't even kick me off the property :) I have invitations from about 20+ renters and the Cafe to come over anytime and do "Pastor at the Airport" functions.
    <music> "Me and Julio Down by the Schoolyard"</music>
    Except I'm the radical priest.
     
  32. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

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    I think part of the tiedown problem is plastic airplanes.
    I don't care what the manufacturer tells you. If you own a plastic airplane, sunlight is NOT your friend.
    Add that to the steadily increasing cost of maintenance for any aircraft, and it makes lots more sense to put the plane in a hanger and protect it from the weather.

    Can you tell I'm grounded by the weather today? All these posts before 7:30 AM. sigh....
     
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  33. JohnAJohnson

    JohnAJohnson Cleared for Takeoff

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    I've only been based at two airports, 500 miles apart. The first was a very rural county airport, with a manager and board chairman that had been in their positions for 25+ years, running the place autonomously. No oversite (accountable to no one), and an interest to keep it small, for their own enrichment. Complaints got tenants kicked out. The local county executive (judge), state AG, and FAA could care less.

    The second and my current location is city owned. It has lots of hangars but as a guess, 50% contain no airplane and are instead filled with RVs and boats. There is a four year + waiting list for a hangar. Here, money is made by selling Jet A to Navy students. Not sure, under these conditions, why the city would really care about a small aircraft owner not having a hangar. Complaints will get you kicked off the field.

    So to answer your question with a question... if small GA aircraft don't have any financial clout, and small town politics is the worst type of politics there is, if there is no political or financial benefit, why would anyone care about some guy who doesn't have a hangar?


     
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  34. MacFly

    MacFly Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The airports where I am are pretty lax at enforcing the "flyable airplane" clause in the hangar lease agreement so there are some builders and restorers hangaring there, but to get a hangar and keep it, you do have to have an insured airplane. It is true, however, that many of the hangars look like an episode of "Hoarders", with an airplane tucked in there somewhere among the boxes and other Storage Wars items.

    I confess...I'm taking my boat over there this afternoon to begin its long winter's nap. It will fit nicely in there at the back behind the RV9.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020
  35. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    It took my airport building new hangars for me to get one. They're all full of airplanes. My old airport had empty hangars when I left and probably has a few now. Also has ones with nonaviation stuff in them. My hangar neighbor had a stroke and had to sell his airplane. He kept the hangar for his junk. He stored an airplane frame in to make it legit. Old airport lost the flight school and mechanical services. It was the latter that drove me out.
     
  36. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    A few years ago CJR hangars was a mess. The waiting list hadn't budged in a long time. A lot of people who were sitting on a hangar were subletting them out. I was fortunate to get a sublet from a woman whose husband had died and had a hangar with a couple of Stinson 108 projects in it. She sold the Stinsons and I paid her from then on for the hangar.

    Finally, the airport had enough. The banned subletting, and sent lease renewals to whoever's plane was in the hangar on Jan 1. (They know this because they open them up to find out who they need to send property tax bills). This allowed me to become primary on the lease. If you moved the aircraft of record out of the hangar, you had 30 days to put another one in that YOU own or give up the hangar. Suddenly the waiting list started to get reasonable again. In fact, the woman who had been subleasing the hangar to me got on the waiting list (her plane was at HEF previosly) and she got one in under two months.

    Of course the CJR airport manager (who's also on the county commission) has a good attitude toward small GA. He was building a jet port to attract industry to his county, but realized that it was the swarm of recreational flyers who were keeping his airport busy so that he could get resources (a LOC and two LPV approaches went in while I was based there). They gave 24 hour access to the FBO building for pilots and kept the rents low. They put in a nice wash rack for public use as well.
     
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  37. charheep

    charheep Line Up and Wait

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    Well yea, its Peoria. Surprised you guys have indoor plumbing there.. :)
     
  38. chemgeek

    chemgeek Pattern Altitude

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    I'm a member of our municipal airport commission. Our hangar space is typically full, even after adding an additional 10 T-hangars in a recent construction grant. We have had waiting lists, but the last few years those have dwindled a bit as area ownership has declined. We do know from fuel purchase and other data that about 50% of our hangared aircraft do not fly. Ever. It's saddening to see these aircraft rot. Owners cannot part with them, and are loathe to set them outside. Our response has been to raise hangar rents while offering fuel purchase rebates (offsets) to encourage occupancy of flying aircraft. But apparently the market value hangar rate for inactive aircraft is very high. We have not yet succeeded in getting a single inactive owner to vacate a hangar. Not one. So we haven't reached or exceeded the market value for these owners yet, and we are wary of pinching our active pilots. It's a real challenge for airport operators. You don't want to drive out your active owners who purchase fuel and services, but at the same time, you need a mechanism to increase revenue by attracting active owners. At least we are collecting more from inactive pilots, but it would be far better to have an active, vibrant pilot community to support our fuel sales and aviation businesses.
     
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  39. Sinistar

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    Several things, not necessarily in order and for all I know already covered above:

    Increased demand for planes and rising value of planes has more owners wanting it covered or inside. This is especially true for avionics upgrades. Do you really want that $7200 ASDB upgrade park on a ramp where it rains, hails, snows, etc.

    More experimental planes being built. They also want hangars. Our old airport had a major share of ultralights 25yrs ago. As that faded the hangars were filled with more and more GA planes. Now several of those very GA planes just don't fly. There is a sweet fastback 3-bladed 182, Dakota and this cheery looking 150 that have not moved an inch in 10yrs. Thankfully nothing else (eg boats) in those hangars. Now we have kitfox, challenger and few RV and Zenith builders with planes that are flying. I would say about half of the new renters are light sport. But none of them are Basic Med. All could pass 3rd class. It more about a cool shift to fun, low and slow with car gas at way lower cost.

    Lease "Work Arounds". Mentioned above was unapproved subletting. The other more popular version (also mentioned above I think) is a pilot wants a plane and a hangar. The hangar is impossible to find. he finds someone at the airport who wouldn't mind a silent partner. So now the new pilot is using that hangar and plane. As long as the plane stays in the original owners name the airport lease is not invalid. This happens at our airport. You meet some great people that way so nothing against them. And that old plane keeps flying. But a new spot never opens up. So that list with 42 names on it doesn't even get looked at.

    Cheaper hangars at larger airports are being displaced with "modern" hangars. In this case I am not talking about mega 16,000sqft hangars. Instead, seeing a block of 3...5 old T-hangars replaced with a 60x60 hangar with large hydraulic doors on each side storing (2) SR22's, one facing each way. Those new hangars are running about $275K...$300K. Definitely business LLC aircraft. So 2 new cirrus LLC's just displaced 3..5 of (you pick: Bo, Lance, Toga, Cherokee, Archer, any Cessna, any Grumman, etc).

    Hangar construction costs along with lending issues on leased land are only hurting new hangar construction.

    Hangar construction process and city involvement tend toward negative or neutral at best as there isn't much perceived benefit from smaller airports.

    Stupid Lease Rules. Often the primary requirement is a registered aircraft. So you can just start an experimental build. Or literally have N Number and some of the parts in the hangar. Bingo...one more hangar that will never hold a flyable aircraft.

    The big topic. Old planes. But so many reasons. I would guess for most the owner hasn't even seen that decrepit plane in 10yrs. If that person could own a plane 10yrs ago they are probably financially well enough off today that they can sustain the low rental payments until death and the estate can continue it for years afterwards. Add to that a wife or kids who have no love of aviation so they just continue to pay the bill for dad because they have no clue how to sell/dump the airplane. All they knew was that it was very expensive. So they renew the registration (Fed and state) every so often for about $150 total. They probably pay the "storage only" insurance once a year. So there is large enough chunk of cash in the bank estate to not have to deal with it for a long, long time.

    I will list this separately. There is just no easy way to get rid of a old, non-airworthy airplane. Its complicated by a buyer who doesn't want to get burned. Even if you could auction them...they have to be take apart (which is hard for old or new owner to accept). Even for scrap the buyer needs to spend their time (money) to rip it apart, transport and then hold any items that could be resold.
     
  40. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf Pattern Altitude

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    Someone has to pay the high property taxes so the school can keep buying technology they don't need. That sucker is me.