Had my first real scare today...

Discussion in 'Lessons Learned' started by david0tey, Aug 19, 2016.

  1. david0tey

    david0tey Line Up and Wait

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    While with a student doing pattern work in a 182RG, I ran the same procedure that I always do and quickly learned the error of my ways. We touched down, rolled out, set flaps back to 10, verified they were in transition, and powered up for the go. As we rotated and ran out of usable runway, I could tell we weren't climbing well. I look back outside and realize the flaps are stuck down between 40 and 30 degrees. I tell the student I have the airplane, lower the nose to maintain our airspeed and immediately get the gear up. We are climbing at about 65 knots, and about 100 fpm, with full power. Since we were climbing, I decided not to try to mess with the flaps until at a safe altitude in case they decided to come up all at once. I limped the airplane onto downwind as we were climbing through 500 feet. I recycled the flap lever two or three times and they came right up without any problems.

    Moral of the story, before going to full power, make sure the flaps are set rather than just verifying they are moving in the right direction. I know many pilots who are guilty of this and I just want to share my experience so that someone else can avoid it altogether.
     
  2. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    Good lesson. Twice now I've had a flaps motor needing attention that tripped the CB on rollout. Both times got stuck somewhere between 20 and 30 degrees. If I'd been doing a touch-and-go and didn't check to be sure, that could have been a sticky situation!
     
  3. DFH65

    DFH65 Cleared for Takeoff

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    I miss the Johnson bar. Faster, more flexible and I think safer.
     
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  4. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    I've done that trick at night in my non-RG once. Instructor friend joked later, "I know I taught you to look out the window and confirm in Cessnas..."

    Highly recommended you add that to your procedure and teach it, too! ;)
     
  5. saddletramp

    saddletramp Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Visual inspection of the flaps is a must on a Cessna. I've had many switch & motor failures over the years. At least you were in an airplane that had some power. I'm glad it worked out for you.
     
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  6. midcap

    midcap Line Up and Wait

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    Is this because it was a 182 or because the flaps were so far down?
     
  7. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer Line Up and Wait

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    Thanks for sharing your experience, and I'm happy the outcome was safe!!

    The RVs have flap motor/gearbox issue where the gearbox grease can work its way down to the motor end bell, and get between the brushes and commutator. Result: no flaps, or intermittent operation at best. It's not that common, but it's a good reminder to go out and practice a couple no-flap landings once in awhile. Noisy, noisy motor that's right between the seats, so you know when it's working, but I always look to confirm the the flaps are where they should be.

    I did like the manual flaps in a Cherokee I flew recently for my BFR. So quick and easy to retract them on a touch and go.
     
  8. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou En-Route

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    I too grew up on Cherokees so I am used to feeling the flaps in the handle.
    When I transitioned to Cessnas, I was paranoid. Heck, I still am paranoid, every flight. I visually check the flaps every time I move the lever. You can call it excessive paranoia but I have had to make a no-flap landing once when I saw that they did not deploy. I was glad I looked. It would felt weird on final, not slowing down even with power at idle. :)

    Glad you resolved the situation right and are here to tell the story. Well done.
     
  9. Blindrage

    Blindrage Pre-takeoff checklist

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    With all the flap and retract issues I see people reporting I am glad my training was in a manual flap archer, and one of the main planes I am thinking about buying is the johnson bar equipped Moonies. Electric is nice, but you just can not beat the reliability of manual for most things.
     
  10. Possum

    Possum Filing Flight Plan

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    In 2014 there was a fatal crash of a Cessna 150 in Mount Pleasant SC. Here is part of the description of the accident from Katherine's Report: It has always been theorized that pilot did not retract the flaps and the plane took off with 40 degrees of flaps. It should be noted that the flaps were retracted when the wreckage was examined.

    From Katherine's report:

    According to a witness, the airplane began its takeoff roll on runway 35 with "40 degrees of flaps." Multiple witnesses stated that the airplane lifted off the ground about midfield and that it "immediately looked unstable." A witness added that the wings were banking to the right and left. When the airplane reached an altitude about 100 feet above ground level, it entered a continuous left turn and subsequently rolled wings level on a westerly heading. The airplane then entered a nose down attitude followed by a right wing low attitude and was in a "straight downward dive" when it impacted the ground.
     
  11. BillTIZ

    BillTIZ En-Route

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    I was taught as a student pilot more than 40yrs ago, visually verify the flaps if you can see them.
    Touch n go, a peek over the shoulder to the flaps, just like changing lanes with a motorcycle, look before you go.
     
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  12. RV10flyer

    RV10flyer Pattern Altitude

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    Even with flaps fully down at 33 degrees and full gross on a hot day, we are still climbing out good. Thanks to our 1654 lb EW, 260 hp and CS prop.
     
  13. Z06_Mir

    Z06_Mir Cleared for Takeoff

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    I fly and teach in my 182RG with flaps 20 landings unless it's a short field. Flaps 40 makes that airplane, as powerful as it is, a real dog trying to climb.. especially in the heat.

    Anyway, nice work staying calm and flying the airplane. That's the best lesson a student can get.
     
  14. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    So what is wrong with the flaps?
     
  15. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer Line Up and Wait

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    No issues climbing out with full flaps in a 160-horse -9A either. I've got a friend who demonstrated this out of El Monte. Seemed like a 200-ft takeoff roll with two aboard!
     
  16. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you PoA Supporter

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    Nice job keeping your cool and saving what could have turned into an ugly situation.
     
  17. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer Line Up and Wait

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    I've got a quick "reset" page on my checklist that I use if I do a landing and then immediately taxi back for another takeoff:

    1) Reset aileron and elevator trims
    2) Lean if necessary (for high DA airports)
    3) Flaps up
    4) Fuel pump on

    I made this extra page after I took off once without resetting the elevator trim. No big deal, but it did feel odd to be giving it down stick on the climb-out!!
     
  18. MAKG1

    MAKG1 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm not sure I agree with that approach. It's easier in a go-around to teach retracting the flaps than it is to open to cowl flaps. Everyone forgets the cowl flaps at first.

    You have the T-flow. Throttle, prop, mixture, flaps, (climb), gear, trim, cowl flaps. At least, that's what I do on the 177RG (I don't have access to a retract 182). 177RGs are total dogs compared to what you have. Prop and mixture should already be there from the before-landing checklist.

    There seems to be a school of thought that you can't make a smooth landing in a 182 power off, full flaps, and at short field speed. I don't agree.
     
  19. luvflyin

    luvflyin Pattern Altitude

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    There but for the Grace of God go I. I'm guilty of doing the same thing, push the lever up and go without verifying. Hasn't bit me yet, but.....
    Thanks for the post
     
  20. Z06_Mir

    Z06_Mir Cleared for Takeoff

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    I didn't say you can't make a good landing with full flaps, but it's not the way I teach. Plus where I teach it's usually fairly windy so it is not uncommon at all to land with partial flaps. 40 flaps is just a lot when you've got even 4,000 feet of runway. Just my two cents... everyone seems to have a different opinion when it comes to landing something with 40* of flaps available.
     
  21. bluerooster

    bluerooster Cleared for Takeoff

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    I found out that a 172 can climb with full 40* of flaps, if you grab the seat and lift with all your might.
     
  22. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Just a thought. If you know you're at high DA and know the aircraft well enough, you don't have to g full rich on the approach. I don't in our 182, I go back to where it was for takeoff, since we never depart around here full rich. (Obviously doesn't apply if you're turbo-normalized...)

    I agree. Full flaps is the way to minimize speed at touchdown and power off full flap at 40 in our airplane works great. It just won't be a shallow approach at all.

    There have been some threads around here discussing the old wives tale that less than full flap is helpful in crosswinds. I haven't found that to really be true and with loss of directional control more likely after touchdown, it would seem the slower you hit something the better.

    May even get it stopped before you go wandering out in the weeds. Especially in prop driven singles, I'd rather know I'm out of rudder before it slows and loses effectiveness while rolling out.

    Rick Durden's got an entire chapter devoted to debunking the "less flap in a crosswind" thing in one of his books also.

    I learned that mine might have climbed that night, but I still had 4000' of runway, so it was better to plant it immediately so I could taxi off and remove the seat cushion from my colon. Ha.

    So glad FAAs goal is to save me from garbage $2 microswitches by making them $22 microswitches though. Always makes me feel warm and fuzzy. LOL.
     
  23. mjburian

    mjburian Cleared for Takeoff

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    I'd be interested in reading this, if you happen to remember which book it was.

    Edit: I did find this: http://www.avweb.com/news/pilotlounge/182656-1.html
     
  24. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer Line Up and Wait

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    So true. I did my 40 hours of Phase 1 in the high desert, with field elevations of 3000', and DAs of 6500' plus on the real scorching days. The engine would just gargle and stumble a bit at full rich.
     
  25. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Not sure which one it's in, but it's in one of the Volumes of the "Thinking Pilot's Flight Manual" series.

    It's a chapter on how he approached talking to a pilot who had a runway excursion in a crosswind who was mandated to work with an FAA approved CFI they agreed upon, as to why, and how to avoid it in the future, along with appropriate dual, as part of his return to flying status.
     
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