Guns at school--at MY KIDS SCHOOL!

TangoWhiskey

TangoWhiskey

Touchdown! Greaser!
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My youngest daughter, Lindsay, just got out of school, FINALLY!! They had her school in lockdown; I first heard that a man was seen with a gun around the school, but Lindsay just got home with Mom and said a man with a gun was IN her school, after having been in the middle school across the street!!!

Keller ISD, Parkwood Hill Intermediate. I don't know any more details yet. My wife said there were helicopters EVERYWHERE.

Just hit a little TOO close to home.
 
God Troy! Glad everything is ok! now go hug your daughter and take her to get some dinner and ice cream!
 
Sorry to hear that happened, Troy - it's a mess all over the place, sometimes. At least it feels that way on occasion. Dang. Glad the kiddo is fine! :)

I second the dinner and ice cream idea - ice cream for everyone!! :)
 
Wow, I would be worried sick if I have a child and that happens.
 
etsisk said:
I second the dinner and ice cream idea - ice cream for everyone!! :)
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Funny, we did that--before I read the message! She gets hugs EVERY day, but got a really long one tonight, for extra measure. She seems pretty okay with it; the school handled it right, they said the police caught the guy, so nobody was hurt, she's not worried about going back tomorrow, because the cops have him in custody. Still don't see anything on the news. I'm sure the district will be sending a letter home tomorrow--they usually do when anything affecting the kids' safety happens.

This was just unexpected; we're not in a crime-prone area, one of the better school districts around here.

Thanks for all the cheery-oh thoughts. Much appreciated.
 
Troy Whistman said:
This was just unexpected; we're not in a crime-prone area, one of the better school districts around here.
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Can you say "complacency?"

Troy, hopefully this incident will cause the district to re-evaluate their security policies and make thing better so you don't have to worry about it happening again.

I'm glad they got the guy before he did anything.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Can you say "complacency?"

Troy, hopefully this incident will cause the district to re-evaluate their security policies and make thing better so you don't have to worry about it happening again.

I'm glad they got the guy before he did anything.
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Me too; I'm actually interested to hear how he got in the school. The doors are magnetically held shut; parents coming to the school have to push an intercom buzzer and talk to the front office on video/audio before being buzzed in. Getting into one school? I can see that. Getting into the school across the street afterwards? That I can't see. Somebody from the first school should have alerted the one across the street. He should never have made it into the 2nd school.

Sad thing is, unless you have an officer outside every door of the school wanding everybody that goes in, you're NEVER going to stop the possibility.
 
<<HUG>>> That happened to me while my niece was living with me last year. A (an estranged) father--with a rifle I think-- of one of the students was the culprit. I am glad they got him before anything happened, but it was scary. Glad things turned out OK.
 
Arm selected teachers and administrators. Problem solved.
 
Anthony said:
Arm selected teachers and administrators. Problem solved.
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Shouldn't have to do it, but that would deter psychos. As long as the selected persons can keep positive control on their weapons. God forbid a class thug grabs a teachers gun and starts shooting...
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Can you say "complacency?"

Troy, hopefully this incident will cause the district to re-evaluate their security policies and make thing better so you don't have to worry about it happening again.
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I don't think there is a school out there that would STOP you from entering with a gun if you really wanted to. Most midwest schools would lock all but their main door during the school day. Still anyone could walk into a main door with a gun and there wouldn't be something stopping them.

Troy's school sounds a little more secure than the ones around here with the intercom system. But I don't imagine it's much work to get them to buzz you in. If they don't buzz you in--you have a gun--I'm pretty sure you can get through that cheap glass door or a window somewhere.

The truth of the matter is there are some things you just can't stop.
 
When you see these things happening and they are brought about by students, you can look back to the violence on TV, the violent video games and other resources that promote it. The rap and punk music that glorifies violence and the like helps push the mentality to the next level.

Here in Atlanta, you have a mother supply her teenage son with a gun who then used it to murder a rival for his girlfriend. There are the "Barbie Bandits" whose parents stated they are "good girls" who just "got into the wrong crowd." We have the ongoing appeals of a twenty-three-year-old who when thirteen shot the father of two toddler boys because his headlights were on while the teen was talking on a payphone. These are a few examples in only one city. Unfortunately, it will only get worse.

I once heard a fifteen-year-old say, "It sounds like someone's parenting skills suck." That pretty much sums it up.
 
And all of that in Keller ISD? Why the heck do we have one of the highest property tax rates in the state???
 
Bill Jennings said:
Shouldn't have to do it, but that would deter psychos. As long as the selected persons can keep positive control on their weapons. God forbid a class thug grabs a teachers gun and starts shooting...
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Absolutely. I agree it all starts with the parents actually doing there job as parents and knowing what their kids are up to. The administrators or teachers that are selected to be asked to carry should be trained to the level of police or higher. In fact maybe they should actually be police/teachers. Just a thought.
 
Anthony said:
The administrators or teachers that are selected to be asked to carry should be trained to the level of police or higher.
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Based on some of the police I've grown up with over the years, combined with their department shooting tests, I will say that the level to which they are trained is quite low. Knowledge of gun, technique, and accuracy is nil.


Hopefully I don't offend any LE on this forum.. I'm sure some of you are very competent.
 
jesse said:
Based on some of the police I've grown up with over the years, combined with their department shooting tests, I will say that the level to which they are trained is quite low. Knowledge of gun, technique, and accuracy is nil.
Hopefully I don't offend any LE on this forum.. I'm sure some of you are very competent.
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Always shot high 90's, got the firearms award in the academy. I know which end is the pointy end. Most (but not all) of the cops I shot with also knew which end was which. ;)
 
OK, a letter came home with my daughter today. Thanks to this board, and Jesse, I found out two days ago what an Airsoft gun is. :) I did a little more research today online and found that some of them look VERY realistic, unlike the clear gun Jesse had.

Letter said:
March 21, 2007

Dear Parents,

Because student safety is a top concern in Keller ISD, I'd like to let you know about an incident that occurred yesterday near our campus.

At approximately 3 p.m., four boys were observed in the area of Hillwood Middle School [which is across the street from my daughter's Intermediate school] in possession of what appeared to be a handgun. Hillwood staff members were notified and in turn notified the Fort Worth Police Department. On the advice of the police department, our school was placed in "lock-down" status until the potential thread could be confirmed and addressed, since it is in close proximity to Hillwood.

Members of the police department, including a FWPD school resource officer from a neighboring school, arrived on the scene and located the juveniles. It was quickly determined that the weapon was a toy gun described as an "Airsoft" toy, and the lock-down was lifted at approximately 3:40 p.m. The lock-down lasted approximately 20 minutes, and was lifted five minutes before the school's normal dismissal time without further incident.

I want to reassure you that this was a look-alike weapon, and not a real gun, and the situation is being handled properly. However, I would like to remind parents that at no time are these sorts of "toy" guns, or any other weapons, tolerated on our campus. Students and parents should understand that carrying a weapon or a look-alike weapon onto school grounds is a violation of state law and the Keller ISD Student Code of Conduct.

Once again, student safety is our top priority. As your child's principal, I want to keep you informed of all issues that might affect your child. Please feel free to contact me if you have further questions.

Sincerely,
<signature>
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Glad it didn't end up being a REAL gun or a man in their school, as had been reported previously. And I hope they make an example out of those kids. They had no business bringing even a TOY gun to school.
 
Competency of cops with guns varies widely, as each organization has different standards and priorities. And like flying, proficiency with weapons is generally related to the frequency and discipline on which you practice. Lots of cops may only handle their weapons once a year for requalification shoots, others may do it quarterly, and the SWAT guys generally shoot at least weekly. There are always the people on the far ends of the bell curve who can fly/shoot beautifully even though they haven't done it for years, or at the other end can never seem to improve no matter how hard they practice. And of course, pointing a gun at a person and deciding that they have to die is MUCH different than putting a hole in a target, especially when it's done in the defense of others.

Here in Virginia carrying a weapon on public school grounds is illegal for anyone but sworn persons, but those of us with carry permits can pick up/drop off our kids from our cars while carrying, and I can walk along the sidewalk while carrying, since that's a right of way.

I remember (here comes an old-guy story) back in 1982 in western KY where I went to high school, that both I and my classmates routinely had pocket or hunting knives in school, and many folks had long guns in the rack of their vehicles (which were locked). Nobody ever got stabbed, cut, or shot while I was there. Somehow we all knew that fighting never went farther than fists, at least at school. I can't explain what's different today, but I don't think that kids in school really grasp that dead is DEAD, and there's no reset/do-over, and that it can happen to them.

Troy, I'm so glad your daughter is ok - I'm going to go hug mine now.
 
The letter states they were "in the area of" but not on school grounds. The action by your daughter's school is reasonable. If they bring any disciplinary action against the boys, that would be overkill.

The stuff that bugs me are things such as suspending a six-year-old for having a one-inch solid plastic pistol from his GI Joe in his pocket.
 
I agree that the lockdown was reasonable, but I hope that the folks investigating the "boys with a gun" call were careful and polite. They don't appear to have been breaking any laws.

Heck, the person who saw them could have just asked, "is that thing real"?

But I grew up playing cops and robbers and cowboys and indians with cap guns, and even though there were real guns in the house, we knew the difference and our neighbors trusted that we knew the difference.
 
I would imagine that the "offenders" probably got to stare down the barrel of one or two REAL guns...not to mention finding out what it's like to be placed prone out on the ground and probably cuffed. So they may have already had a lesson they will never forget.
 
ausrere said:
I would imagine that the "offenders" probably got to stare down the barrel of one or two REAL guns...not to mention finding out what it's like to be placed prone out on the ground and probably cuffed. So they may have already had a lesson they will never forget.
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I'd consider that to be an overreaction, depending on the age of the boys and the makeup of the neighborhood, and other tactical factors. If you see kids playing with a toy gun and they are shooting at each other or targets (and if they're playing with a toy they're GONNA be shooting it), you can pretty quickly be sure it's a toy before you have to draw your own weapon.

On the other hand, if they're older teenagers and trying to be cool and act tough by "packing", then they are trying to convince you they're really armed and you should respond appropriately.

It's so hard to judge another's actions when you're not there yourself. I've been on both sides of the gun and the badge in different times in my life, and the one time when cops were pointing guns at me, I always felt they were justified, and as soon as it was clear there was no threat they ratcheted right back down the force scale, just like they were supposed to.

I don't think I'd want to be a street-level cop in a "good" community nowadays, let alone in a real urban area.
 
Ultra realistic indeed. Here is my Airsoft gun. It has actually been confused as a real weapon on numerous occasions, especially since I colored over the orange tip.

In case you're curious, it was bought at Walmart for $19 about 5 years ago, before Walmart stopped selling realistic replicas. You'd be amazed what you can buy in airsoft, though. How about a replica M16 Electric Airsoft Gun, so realistic that real-life M16 accessories will fit and attach.

edit: with the slide back, it looks even more realistic:
 

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and what lesson might that be? Toy guns are weapons? Fear the cops? C'mon, that's a bit of a stretch, unless you didn't mean it vindictively - if I mis-interpreted then please accept my apology.

My boys play airsoft wars ... all the muzzles have the orange band on them. I would hope that they would not be taken down with weapons drawn if they ever had a concerned citizen call a complaint in on them.
 
SkyHog said:
Ultra realistic indeed. Here is my Airsoft gun. It has actually been confused as a real weapon on numerous occasions, especially since I colored over the orange tip.
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You make my point. You color over the tip, you expect to be treated as if the weapon is real.
 
TMetzinger said:
You make my point. You color over the tip, you expect to be treated as if the weapon is real.
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Ahh, but, this gun actually came with 2 barrels, one with the orange and one without. Most AEG's come that way (this one is spring loaded, not electric). I colored over the tip when I lost the other barrel.

I have only ever used the gun during airsoft wars out in the middle of the desert with friends. The one time it was confused for a real gun was a situation where I wanted it to be confused for a real gun because I was unarmed and confronted in a bad neighborhood. Luckily, I had it with me.
 
Columbine changed a lot of things.

Having had both toy guns and real guns pointed at me in a "high stress" situations, let me tell you.. it is VERY difficult to tell the difference. And orange bands on the toy weapons mean nothing. The bad guys learned to paint orange bands on the real ones 5 minutes after the toy guns came out that way. I know, I've confiscated several..and they fired real bullets. Lay them side by side with the toy version and they look identical. And I've worked a shooting where a 9 year old shot and killed his own father for making him come in from playing. The kids room was full of realistic toy weapons, but the one he used was very real. So age means nothing.

There have been many documented cases where kids, and adults, have been shot playing with toy guns because they do look so realistic. Not to mention, they don't follow an officers directions to put the guns down when told to do so because they know they are toys and don't have a clue that the officer can't tell it. In the confusion, they will point the weapon in the officers direction. There have also been cases were officers were killed because they assumed kids playing with a gun had a toy gun... only to find out the hard way they were real. Sadly age really makes no difference this day an age. An 8 year old can kill you just as quickly as an 18, 28 or 88 year old can.

Unless someone has been in the moment of having to make that split second decision, you can't know what you'd do. Protocol for most agencies these days is to assume the weapon is real until you have it YOUR hands and can tell otherwise. As always you fire your weapon as a last resort, and use other tactics as you can, but sometimes you don't have the luxury of taking a "time out" to discuss with the 8 year old if the weapon he's pointing at you or someone else is real or not. You treat it as real, period.
 
Troy Whistman said:
And I hope they make an example out of those kids. They had no business bringing even a TOY gun to school.
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This approaches the fine line over which is the "zero tolerance" policy.

Stupid? Yes, excessively. But how bad do you punish KIDS for being stupid with a toy gun? Zero Tolerance type stuff really ticks me off, and it is part of the problem we're having with weapons in schools these days. Zero tolerance = zero rational thought.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
This approaches the fine line over which is the "zero tolerance" policy.

Stupid? Yes, excessively. But how bad do you punish KIDS for being stupid with a toy gun? Zero Tolerance type stuff really ticks me off, and it is part of the problem we're having with weapons in schools these days. Zero tolerance = zero rational thought.
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Kent,

I understand what you're saying; when I say "make an example" out of them, I certainly don't mean they should be drawn and quartered. :)

However, there's a time and place for everything. A toy gun at home, in your backyard or the woods playing with your buddies is one thing. Taking it to school is not acceptable, even if you just wanted to "show your buddies". If these were elementary school kids, especially K-3, I can buy your argument. "Kids" in middle school (Hillwood has grades 7 & 8) are old enough to know better in today's society. If you accidentally brought one to school (and yes, I can see that happening), then the responsible middle-schooler will keep it PUT AWAY and/or make sure a teacher or office official knows, and retrieve it after school, discreetly, and keep it put away til they get home. To pull it out and "brandish" (show it off) to your buddies on the walk home from school warrants at least a "let's sit down and chat" to remind the student of why that's not a smart thing to do in today's society.

I don't think a one-rule-fits-all works in any situation. We need to be intelligent enough to examine the circumstances and make a reasoned civilized response.
 
SkyHog said:
Ultra realistic indeed. Here is my Airsoft gun. It has actually been confused as a real weapon on numerous occasions, especially since I colored over the orange tip.
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Why did you color over the tip?
 
Troy Whistman said:
If you accidentally brought one to school (and yes, I can see that happening), then the responsible middle-schooler will keep it PUT AWAY and/or make sure a teacher or office official knows, and retrieve it after school, discreetly, and keep it put away til they get home. To pull it out and "brandish" (show it off) to your buddies on the walk home from school warrants at least a "let's sit down and chat" to remind the student of why that's not a smart thing to do in today's society.

I don't think a one-rule-fits-all works in any situation. We need to be intelligent enough to examine the circumstances and make a reasoned civilized response.
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Yeah, but letting the responsible party know would get you expelled. Zero tolerance, remember. As you said, a one-rule-fits-all doesn't work.
 
RogerT said:
Bingo. The bad guys like people who have no way to defend themselves.
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Big fat zero. LE are trained in this. Some over-zealous teacher or administrator, who perhaps had to take a qualifying test years ago to get to carry the gun, is much more likely to inappropriately escalate the situation and kill either an innocent bystander or some poor fool who brought his (rarely her) Airsoft to school.

I don't think "psychos" are going to be deterred by the possible presence of armed teachers. They'll either think they're invincible or already have a death wish and don't care.

I don't think we're talking about the typical "bad guy" coming into the school. They're almost certain to either have severe emotional issues, e.g. Columbine, or to be just plain stupid, e.g. brandishing a "toy".
 
gprellwitz said:
Big fat zero. LE are trained in this. Some over-zealous teacher or administrator, who perhaps had to take a qualifying test years ago to get to carry the gun, is much more likely to inappropriately escalate the situation and kill either an innocent bystander or some poor fool who brought his (rarely her) Airsoft to school.
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I agree with this. AND, I would worry about the very real possibility of responding officers confronting the armed staff member and not knowing they were a staff member. Seems like an accident waiting to happen. It never ceases to amaze me what stupid stuff some people will do when they are confronted by LE. The adrenaline gets pumping and they loose all common sense. I can't tell you the number of times I've had home owners point a gun at responding officers when they call in prowlers. It's a miracle that I, or better yet -one of my rookies, never shot a home owner looking for a prowler. I can only imagine the "brain disconnect" factor a school administrator not used to dealing with armed confrontations would have if they were suddenly confronted with a potential deadly situation.


I'm a firm believer in CCW's for personal protection, but untrained people carrying weapons around a school full of kids makes me nervous.
 
gprellwitz said:
I don't think "psychos" are going to be deterred by the possible presence of armed teachers.
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After 13 years of going to parent/teacher conferences, I'm not sure the "psychos" and the "teachers" aren't often one and the same. OK, that's painting with too broad a brush, but the thought of some of the teachers I've met over the years carrying a gun to school is very, very, very frightning. If you are a teacher I'm sure you are an exception. :yes:
 
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