Grumman Tiger questions

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DaytonaLynn

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One who misses Daytona!
I am scheduled for a checkout in a friends Tiger next Saturday.

Any tips on flying this great bird?
I have been reading the POH and the V speeds. It looks pretty straight forward as far as pattern speeds.
I was wondering if there are any inherent things like doe it float or drop at the touchdown.

Any tips for short field landings?
Thanks
 
Hit your target speeds on approach and land in the mains only, the nose gear is just for taxing. I adjust my speeds for my current weight but know others don't, they just live with a bit more float. They are honest flying airplanes without any bad habits but an AYA checkout would be preferable.
 
As long as you hit your speeds you'll be good, but if you're fast you'll most certainly float.

Depending on the winds, can be a little tough to get it down to flap speed but once you get it there it slows nicely.

In the climb and cruise, depending on what you've been flying, the attitude will most likely look more nose-down than you're used to. Also, climbing at 90kts contributed to that.

Lean aggressively on the ground (at least our tiger seems to be prone to fowling if you don't).

You'll notice that the aileron travel is very short. 4-5" on each side at most.

When you land, keep the nosewheel off the ground as long as possible - it can shimmy quite badly.

As other said, they're great flying, very responsive aircraft.
 
My best advice:

It's just an airplane.


Source: former owner.



And what he said ^^^^^^^
 
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Who's giving you the checkout?

Like they said, it's a totally honest plane as long as you hit the recommended speeds and don't overcontrol it. Beyond that, just enjoy it.
 
I've owned both a Traveler and a Tiger and have a bunch of hours in each.

1) Some say they are "hot" airplanes, with high wing loading. They are not. The 2-seat AA1 series did lean in that direction, and when used as a trainer without taking it's different flight characteristics into account, it could "bite" and was involved in more than an average amount of accidents. But this is NOT true of any if the AA5 series - nice, large, "Hershey Bar" wing with no unusual characteristics.

2) One can watch small airplanes land at small airports and see that lots of pilots land very "flat" - often 3-point (talking tricycle gear here). With damping on the nose gear, one can usually get away with that. But the Grummans have virtually no damping in the nose gear - it is primed to bounce back into the air if the pilot lands flat or even nosewheel first. This is NOT just an issue for Grummans - most Cirruses and Diamonds and Mooneys and the like have similar nose gear for the sake of simplicity. Just make a point of landing mains first and it should not be an issue. My Grummans both handled "full stall" landings just fine, and they were my SOP, conditions permitting.

3) Proper adjustment of nose gear friction is important. Too tight and ground operations are difficult. Too loose and shimmy will be a problem. A simple fish scale can tell you if you're in the right range, and adjustment is straightforward - though not listed as a owner maintenance item.

4) With the nose gear free castering, one must be careful not to drag the brakes. The key is to taxi in the Goldilocks Zone - not too fast and not too slow. Fast enough that the rudder is effective and not so fast you need a lot of brakes to keep the speed in check. Best to "stab" the brakes as needed for directional control rather than drag them. One can even use taxiway and runway "crown" to assist. Again, this is common to all designs with free castering nose gear.

Beyond that, nice handling and honest plane - the best in its class IMHO!
 
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FastEddieB said:
I've owned both a Traveler and a Tiger and have a bunch of hours in each.

1) Some say they are "hot" airplanes, with high wing loading. They are not.
Click to expand...
Comparable wing loadings:

AA-5B 17.1, Cessna 177B 14.4, Piper Archer 14.8, Beech Sundowner 16.7
AA-5A: 15.7, Cessna 172P 13.8, Piper Warrior 14.4, Beech Sport 14.7
AA-1B: 15.9, Cessna 152 10.4, Piper Tomahawk 13.4, Beech Skipper 12.9

So, the Grummans do have somewhat higher wing loading, but that's a significant part of why they are so much faster than their competitors, and also why they ride better in turbulence.

The 2-seat AA1 series did lean in that direction, and when used as a trainer without taking it's different flight characteristics into account, it could "bite" and was involved in more than an average amount of accidents. But this is NOT true of any if the AA5 series - nice, large, "Hershey Bar" wing with no unusual characteristics.
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The original AA-1 did have a different wing, and has a few unique quirks which must be learned, but the later AA-1A/B/C have the same "cuffed" airfoil as the AA-5-series. The biggest problem we have with the AA-1A/B/C and AA-5-series is people trying to fly them too fast on final. OTOH, you cannot fly the original "slick wing" AA-1 the same way as you fly the other 2-seat trainers of its class (C-150/152, PA38 Tomahawk, and BE77 Skipper) or you will add to the disturbing statistics which led American Aviation to change the airfoil after the 1970 model year.

2) One can watch small airplanes land at small airports and see that lots of pilots land very "flat" - often 3-point (talking tricycle gear here). With damping on the nose gear, one can usually get away with that. But the Grummans have virtually no damping in the nose gear - it is primed to bounce back into the air if the pilot lands flat or even nosewheel first. This is NOT just an issue for Grummans - most Cirruses and Diamonds and Mooneys and the like have similar nose gear for the sake of simplicity. Just make a point of landing mains first and it should not be an issue. My Grummans both handled "full stall" landings just fine, and they were my SOP, conditions permitting.
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...and after landing, hold the nosewheel off until you are almost out of aft yoke travel and then gently lower it to the runway.

3) Proper adjustment of nose gear friction is important. Too tight and ground operations are difficult. Too loose and shimmy will be a problem. A simple fish scale can tell you if you're in the right range, and adjustment is straightforward - though not listed as a owner maintenance item.
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This isn't hard to do and is clearly described in the maintenance manual.

4) With the nose gear free castering, one must be careful not to drag the brakes. The key is to taxi in the Goldilocks Zone - not too fast and not too slow. Fast enough that the rudder is effective and not so fast you need a lot of brakes to keep the speed in check. Best to "stab" the brakes as needed for directional control rather than drag them. One can even use taxiway and runway "crown" to assist. Again, this is common to all deigns with free castering nose gear.
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Agreed.
 
I got my PPL in my Yankee AA1. The responsiveness of the controls will be the hardest thing to get adjusted to if you are used to Cessna's. Other than that it is just like any other airplane.
 
wear pants. It's ungainly to get in wearing a skirt.
 
Hey folks
Thanks for the headsup suggestions and advice.
I have a CFI doing the checkout with me.
I will watch the numbers carefully and above all, have fun flying this machine

I can hardly wait to go up and fly it.
 
Ron Levy said:
Does your CFI have Grumman experience? I've cleaned up a few times behind non-Grumman-experienced CFI's who unsuccessfully tried learning on the job.
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Listen to Ron. He did the check out with me in my Tiger, and it was well worth it fo have someone that knows these planes, and their characteristics. As others have said, they are honest flying airplanes, that are easy to fly, but do demand some more discipline in airspeed for landings. Other than that they are just more fun to fly, and faster than anything else in their class except for some experimentals.

The AYA (Grumman Type CLub) has a network of Grumman savvy CFI's that do checkouts.

www.aya.org
 
Anthony said:
Listen to Ron. He did the check out with me in my Tiger, and it was well worth it fo have someone that knows these planes, and their characteristics. As others have said, they are honest flying airplanes, that are easy to fly, but do demand some more discipline in airspeed for landings. Other than that they are just more fun to fly, and faster than anything else in their class except for some experimentals.

The AYA (Grumman Type CLub) has a network of Grumman savvy CFI's that do checkouts.

www.aya.org
Click to expand...
We do indeed have such a program, and it's called the Pilot Familiarization Program (PFP). It includes not only stick-and-rudder issues of flying the plane, but also information on owning and maintaining your plane. The program typically takes 4-6 hours of ground and flight training with a PFP Instructor if you're a competent and proficient light plane pilot in some other type. Membership in the AYA is required, but you'll probably make up the $50/year membership fee just with the AYA member discounts from Grumman parts suppliers like Fletchair and AirMods NW.

And I know we have several PFPI's in Texas.
 
DaytonaLynn said:
Any tips on flying this great bird?
I have been reading the POH and the V speeds. It looks pretty straight forward as far as pattern speeds.
I was wondering if there are any inherent things like doe it float or drop at the touchdown. Any tips for short field landings?
Thanks
Click to expand...

1. Keep approach speed dead on - its fast and likes to float if fast
2. Flaps don't reduce stall much but DOES increase approach angle and creates good drag. Re-read your POH, most of your takeoffs and landings are identical (there is not a flaps 10* takeoff option).
3. Tiger rotates at 60MPH - VX is about 80-85 and Vy 100 mph (i.e. you need to rotate and accelerate in ground effect to at least Vx ... if you try climbing at 60-65 and get a gust you're in for a rude sink)

Ron Levy said:
Comparable wing loadings:

AA-5B 17.1, Cessna 177B 14.4, Piper Archer 14.8, Beech Sundowner 16.7
AA-5A: 15.7, Cessna 172P 13.8, Piper Warrior 14.4, Beech Sport 14.7
AA-1B: 15.9, Cessna 152 10.4, Piper Tomahawk 13.4, Beech Skipper 12.9

So, the Grummans do have somewhat higher wing loading, but that's a significant part of why they are so much faster than their competitors, and also why they ride better in turbulence.
Click to expand...

I was wondering about this. I usually ride solo ... on my last trip this weekend to see my son (I pack LIGHT) my take-off weight full fuel is 1910 lbs (max TO 2400 as you know). After a cross Texas ride down to 12 gallons remaining my arrival weight is 1675 lbs. Had a high cross wind landing and this was the first time I ran out of rudder twice attempting to land. Was figuring part of it was a weight issue. Also notice I get more yaw movements in TB when solo requiring me to hold right rudder to remove/reduce tail swings (yaw damper).
 
JHW said:
wear pants. It's ungainly to get in wearing a skirt.
Click to expand...

Same as with the Navion, but I suspect that like me Lynn doesn't wear skirts. We're both guys.
 
Ron Levy said:
We do indeed have such a program, and it's called the Pilot Familiarization Program (PFP). It includes not only stick-and-rudder issues of flying the plane, but also information on owning and maintaining your plane. The program typically takes 4-6 hours of ground and flight training with a PFP Instructor if you're a competent and proficient light plane pilot in some other type. Membership in the AYA is required, but you'll probably make up the $50/year membership fee just with the AYA member discounts from Grumman parts suppliers like Fletchair and AirMods NW.

And I know we have several PFPI's in Texas.
Click to expand...
Good advice, just not suited for the OP

DaytonaLynn said:
I am scheduled for a checkout in a friends Tiger next Saturday.
Click to expand...

:thumbsup:
 
danhagan said:
1. Keep approach speed dead on - its fast and likes to float if fast
2. Flaps don't reduce stall much but DOES increase approach angle and creates good drag. Re-read your POH, most of your takeoffs and landings are identical (there is not a flaps 10* takeoff option).
3. Tiger rotates at 60MPH - VX is about 80-85 and Vy 100 mph (i.e. you need to rotate and accelerate in ground effect to at least Vx ... if you try climbing at 60-65 and get a gust you're in for a rude sink)
Click to expand...
You sound like I told you how to do this. :D

I was wondering about this. I usually ride solo ... on my last trip this weekend to see my son (I pack LIGHT) my take-off weight full fuel is 1910 lbs (max TO 2400 as you know). After a cross Texas ride down to 12 gallons remaining my arrival weight is 1675 lbs.
Click to expand...
Well, yeah, if you're all the way down to 1675 lb gross weight, your wing loading is only about 12 lb/sq ft, and that puts you down more like a Cessna 150 in this regard.

Had a high cross wind landing and this was the first time I ran out of rudder twice attempting to land. Was figuring part of it was a weight issue.
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I landed an AA-5A in a 45-knot crosswind about 20 years ago without running out of rudder, so you must have had a truly amazing wind or you weren't using enough bank angle. That said, I ain't never gonna do that again.

Also notice I get more yaw movements in TB when solo requiring me to hold right rudder to remove/reduce tail swings (yaw damper).
Click to expand...
Absolutely -- the lighter you are, the more those things affect you.
 
Ron Levy said:
Depends on who's giving him the checkout.
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Very true!!

Saturday morning in Apopka Florida I am doing the check out.

One last question, is there a curtain to pull to reduce the heat and glare from the canopy? The other low wing I flew had one, not that it helps much in Florida.

I talked to a guy who flies a Tiger and he made a PVC ram air scoop that he sticks between the canopy and the closing point. I guess he stays below canopy open speed!!
 
DaytonaLynn said:
Saturday morning in Apopka Florida I am doing the check out.
Click to expand...
And you have how much prior Grumman ownership and operating experience?

One last question, is there a curtain to pull to reduce the heat and glare from the canopy?
Click to expand...
Not unless you put one in yourself. But cracking the canopy about an inch takes care of the problem just fine.
 
Ron Levy said:
You sound like I told you how to do this. :D
Click to expand...

You did.;) For those that weren't aware, Ron transported my Tiger for the seller to FletchAIR for a full annual - was able to get a debrief on everything after he flew it. It's been a great 5 years.


Ron Levy said:
I landed an AA-5A in a 45-knot crosswind about 20 years ago without running out of rudder, so you must have had a truly amazing wind or you weren't using enough bank angle. That said, I ain't never gonna do that again.
Click to expand...

The AWOS was mis-reporting at Austin Exec (Notamed as unreliable). Am estimating it was at least 28G35 out of 360 to 020 at the "low" end blowing RT to LT on final (RWY 31). I've landed that at home with direct 90* cross, but had full tanks. I also landed that on a short narrow runway near Lubbock, but had 2 adults and a child on board with me and was only 100-150 lbs under gross. Wind was strong enough to blow my sleeping bag over 150 yards in less than a minute (placed it on wing during unloading and away she went).

As for bank angle, it seemed like I had the correct amount ... rudder was on the floor, wing low and I still couldn't track straight (two passes). I did identical on the third attempt and landed without problems. If the third didn't look good, it would've been the shorter runway more aligned with the wind or somewhere else. Again, I was "light" estimating a landing weight of 1675 lbs.
 
So tell me if I over reacted.
This plane has not flown for just over two years. The owner has some medical issues. The plane has gone through its annuals.
I show up and the CFI showed up and this is what happened.
Do a preflight, can drain the fuel, it drains are stick. Get a wrench no drain tanks. Probably a quart each side.
We get in the plane and run through the panel and as the CFI shoves the throttle it only goes in 1/4 to 1/2 inch. Mechanic opens hood and it's hitting a hose. "Didn't do that when we ran it up"
Ok, so now we are ready to start, plane fires right up then dies.
We tried and tried to get it refine.
Mechanic opens and determines there is fire, so fuel
Pulls the primer hose, full of water. Pull the aux fuel pump hose it's full of water. Again it's only been two weeks since annual.
So CFI and I leave.
Mechanic is supposed to get it running on Monday. I call he says it is ready.
I say to myself, he said it was running before, so I decide not to take a chance on this plane and called CFI and said I am not comfortable flying this plane.

Do you think I overreacted or used proper decision making?
Thanks
 
Sounds like a good decision to me. If the guy helping you is the one who's been doing inspections and mx all along, I'm seriously suspect about what else has been missed or covered over.
 
UNDER-reacted!
:yikes:
 
DaytonaLynn said:
Do you think I overreacted or used proper decision making?
Thanks
Click to expand...

You certainly are following "The Most Conservative Action".

It's not like there aren't other Tigers out there.

This one might still be worth consideration if the price was right and it was equipped "just so". But I would want it thoroughly gone over by an impartial Grumman expert before staking my life on it.

Good luck in your search - don't get soured on the breed by this one questionable example.
 
DaytonaLynn said:
So tell me if I over reacted.
This plane has not flown for just over two years. The owner has some medical issues. The plane has gone through its annuals.
I show up and the CFI showed up and this is what happened.
Do a preflight, can drain the fuel, it drains are stick. Get a wrench no drain tanks. Probably a quart each side.
We get in the plane and run through the panel and as the CFI shoves the throttle it only goes in 1/4 to 1/2 inch. Mechanic opens hood and it's hitting a hose. "Didn't do that when we ran it up"
Ok, so now we are ready to start, plane fires right up then dies.
We tried and tried to get it refine.
Mechanic opens and determines there is fire, so fuel
Pulls the primer hose, full of water. Pull the aux fuel pump hose it's full of water. Again it's only been two weeks since annual.
So CFI and I leave.
Mechanic is supposed to get it running on Monday. I call he says it is ready.
I say to myself, he said it was running before, so I decide not to take a chance on this plane and called CFI and said I am not comfortable flying this plane.

Do you think I overreacted or used proper decision making?
Thanks
Click to expand...

I probably would have walked after the stuck sumps and water in the tanks, add the throttle sticking and the engine not even starting up.... The A&P IA and possibly the owner too, are full of chit.

You would also have to presume that anything in that logbook that had that APs name by it was not done, or not done properly.

If the mechanic actually just completed a annual the only tool you'll probably find in his tool box is a pen.

Did you travel far to see this heap?

If you have significant expenses I'd ask the mechanic and owner to cover them, or run this up the food chain with their local FSDO.
 
It sounds like this Tiger needs some TLC, and some $$$ to make right. If it is just sitting outside, that isn't good either.
 
DaytonaLynn said:
So tell me if I over reacted.
This plane has not flown for just over two years. The owner has some medical issues. The plane has gone through its annuals.
I show up and the CFI showed up and this is what happened.
Do a preflight, can drain the fuel, it drains are stick. Get a wrench no drain tanks. Probably a quart each side.
We get in the plane and run through the panel and as the CFI shoves the throttle it only goes in 1/4 to 1/2 inch. Mechanic opens hood and it's hitting a hose. "Didn't do that when we ran it up"
Ok, so now we are ready to start, plane fires right up then dies.
We tried and tried to get it refine.
Mechanic opens and determines there is fire, so fuel
Pulls the primer hose, full of water. Pull the aux fuel pump hose it's full of water. Again it's only been two weeks since annual.
So CFI and I leave.
Mechanic is supposed to get it running on Monday. I call he says it is ready.
I say to myself, he said it was running before, so I decide not to take a chance on this plane and called CFI and said I am not comfortable flying this plane.

Do you think I overreacted or used proper decision making?
Thanks
Click to expand...
I don't think I would have gotten half as far as you before walking away. Plenty other fish in this particular sea.
 
Thanks everyone, I teach my motorcycle students to listen to their gut when riding and don't violet that feeling. I was forced to practice what I teach on another level. It was not a difficult decision but it was a disappointing one in that I had been looking forward to this for over a month.

I did offer to take the plane back to Houston and care for it, hangar it and keep it flying right until he would either sell it or want it back. But he is balking at it. He lives in Birmingham and is not near the plane. So it not like he is going out everyday to see it.

But, I did learn there are annuals, then there are annuals.

Now on to Finnish the IR so Aggie Mike and I can celebrate!
 
Just one more thing. The Tiger will spoil you for Cessnas, and Pipers. Trust me.
 
DaytonaLynn said:
Thanks everyone, I teach my motorcycle students to listen to their gut when riding and don't violet that feeling. I was forced to practice what I teach on another level. It was not a difficult decision but it was a disappointing one in that I had been looking forward to this for over a month.

I did offer to take the plane back to Houston and care for it, hangar it and keep it flying right until he would either sell it or want it back. But he is balking at it. He lives in Birmingham and is not near the plane. So it not like he is going out everyday to see it.

But, I did learn there are annuals, then there are annuals.

Now on to Finnish the IR so Aggie Mike and I can celebrate!
Click to expand...

Over the years and the few airplanes I have owned. You are more likely to be right if you assume every annual is pencil whipped. IA's rarely do their job especially if they have been working with a particular mechanic for a long time. Mechanics are going to make mistakes and aren't going to memorize every intricacy of every airplane they work on.

I offer to help my mechanic to lessen the cost of the annual. But what I am really doing is most of the annual before hand so I know what is right and what isn't.
 
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