Grumman AG5B Transition Training

[dukeblue219]

No prob, every decision is a trade off after all. Only other advise I'd have is to call around to the various Grumman service experts and find out if they know of any aircraft that meet your specs which might be coming up for sale. They often hear about these things long before they hit Trade-A-Plane/Barnstormers/Controller. They know who's suddenly only flying a few hours a year and is looking to get out... Places like Fletchair, Air Mods Northwest, Excel Air, etc... pretty much anyone who has an ad in the AYA Star magazine is a good bet.

Oops, I think you guys may have confused me for the poster who had originally asked about buying. I already have a 2003 AG5B (with partners), and am quite thrilled with it

 

[ryoung99]

Only other advise I'd have is to call around to the various Grumman service experts and find out if they know of any aircraft that meet your specs which might be coming up for sale. They often hear about these things long before they hit Trade-A-Plane/Barnstormers/Controller. They know who's suddenly only flying a few hours a year and is looking to get out... Places like Fletchair, Air Mods Northwest, Excel Air, etc... pretty much anyone who has an ad in the AYA Star magazine is a good bet.

This is the best advice you could get in regards to a Grumman. Don't worry so much about the year (although I concur the 79 is the one to own, but that is because that is what I just bought).

It took me two years to find mine, so be patient. Call all of the Grumman experts and learn from them, but more important make sure they know what you want. I will tell you that Gary Vogt at AUCountry Aviation is a great resource, he is very picky about his work. When I talked to him I asked him to find me a plane he would buy. The first one he sent to me, the timing was not quite right, but the most recent one I was able to make happen.

I would also suggest that you pay a little more to get quality. One piece of advice that Gary gave me was to worry more about the airframe than the engine. Too many people get caught up in the hours of an engine and will take a second rate airframe. You can replace engines and avionics, the airframe is what you are buying and replacing it is much more difficult. In the end he found me a 1500 TT bird that is strong as can be, with upgrades and very well maintained even with the low hours. It is exactly what I was looking for, and in the end I was very glad that I passed on a few others that had lower time engines with higher time airframes.

Good luck and if I can be of any assistance please do not hesitate to ask.

 

[Frank]

What does the location of of the fuel in the spar vs inboard wing affect the plane?

The fuel can go out to the wingtips, increasing the rotational moment, much like a figure skater extending his arms. This causes the spin to flatten and increases the rudder force needed to stop rotations. NASA did a study of spins using a modified AA1. They had to use a small parachute in the tail to stop some of the spins.

We have all jumped in different N-numbers of the same model and found the planes were very different, and time in your specific plane is going to make you the most comfortable.

Interesting point. One of the biggest adverse surprises I ever got while flying was on one of my early solos, where I had been scheduled to do a cross country. The Piper Colt I had been scheduled in was down for maintenance, so the flight school put me in one I had never flown before. I had trouble from the start, not being able to find the starter switch. There was a switch in the same place I was used to from other Colts, but it had been disconnected and the switch had been moved. I thought the battery was dead, but after the flying school folks laughed at me, they explained where the switch really was. Then I took the plane up, and I am sure I had secured the door, but it popped open nonetheless on takeoff. The climb was dismal. When I got to pattern altitude I closed the door, but since it was a hot day and the flight was not going well, I decided to go around the pattern and land before anything else could go wrong. I did a power off approach (bad idea in retrospect) figuring that a steeper approach limited the likelihood of an overshoot and go around. I approached at 65 mph, the standard approach speed, as indicated by the manual and my previous experience. I had made a very good turn to final, but although I thought I was a little high and might have to slip, the touchdown point stayed exactly in the same point on the windshield and just got bigger and clearer, with little or no control input. I was flying with my right hand, as I had in all my dual flights (which says something about the instruction). When I raised the nose in an attempt to round out, the plane just continued in a straight line to the runway. Apparently the airspeed indicator was off, and other students had been told to fly their approaches at 85 mph, of which I was completely unaware. I landed very hard on the two mains, then the nose came down, I had a short bounce, during which I kept the nose up, and the plane stopped in a very short distance.

The flying school later said that I had caused substantial structural damage. I think the plane may well have had some of that damage before I got in. Certainly there may have been something wrong with the door frame, which in turn may have lowered pressure at a static port under the panel, raising indicated airspeed.

Although I now know to keep one hand on the throttle during final and round out, I still think this shows how different one plane of a model can be from another. I would have profited greatly had someone merely clued me in to the indicated airspeed others were using for approach in that airplane.

 

[Dean V]

A number of inaccuracies here. First, spin recovery from a 3-second/1-turn spin is no more difficult than any of the Piper/Cessna types -- this was proven during certification. .

The certification process provides the 3 second/1 turn demonstration standard for a spin recovery. A determination that a recovery is easier, as easy, or more difficult between make/model is not part of the certification standard, and one can not draw that conclusion just because two makes have met the same standard.

The average private pilot would likely take 3 seconds to determine they were in a spin and recall the standard PARE recovery, not withstanding the time/turns to recover.

 

[kontiki]

I was looking up that King Air for the other thread and notice that the other flight school in this area has a Grumman Tiger listed on their rental page.

http://www.air-venture.com/aircraftrental

It hasn't been there for many months. It was a lease back; school and owner terminated their arrangement.

There is an instructor down there with a lot of Grumman time though. So there is a source of local transition training.

And, I think I got contact info to a local Grumman owner this morning.
I have seen one tied down at M01, and I saw him taxi out this morning. I asked the FBO to pass contact info along if he saw the guy when he came in.

While I was at the stop and hold, he came in on final and I asked him for a ride. He picked up the contact info. Hopefully he calls.

 

[poadeleted20]

The fuel can go out to the wingtips, increasing the rotational moment, much like a figure skater extending his arms. This causes the spin to flatten and increases the rudder force needed to stop rotations. NASA did a study of spins using a modified AA1. They had to use a small parachute in the tail to stop some of the spins.

First, this only applies to the 2-seaters. Second, NASA radically changed the aircraft's aerodynamics, so those test results are not representative in any way of the stock airplane. You can see that modified plane in the Virginia Air and Space Center in Hampton Roads VA -- it's hanging in the stairwell.

 

[poadeleted20]

The certification process provides the 3 second/1 turn demonstration standard for a spin recovery. A determination that a recovery is easier, as easy, or more difficult between make/model is not part of the certification standard, and one can not draw that conclusion just because two makes have met the same standard.

The average private pilot would likely take 3 seconds to determine they were in a spin and recall the standard PARE recovery, not withstanding the time/turns to recover.

Well, Dean, that's the test, that's the standard, and that's the way every Normal/Utility category airplane not certified for intentional spins was tested. Having personally been in incipient spins (generally unintentionally -- hazard of being a CFI) in pretty much every light single widely used for training, I think I can say with good confidence that what I posted is accurate.

 

[Dean V]

Well, Dean, that's the test, that's the standard, and that's the way every Normal/Utility category airplane not certified for intentional spins was tested. Having personally been in incipient spins (generally unintentionally -- hazard of being a CFI) in pretty much every light single widely used for training, I think I can say with good confidence that what I posted is accurate.

As a CFi, you recognize the the entry and the incipient spin. As I pointed out, the average pilot is going to likely be recovering from a developed spin before the properly react. I have not experiance a delveloped spin in an AA5, but have in a 152/172. I doubt the experiance would be quite the same.

Also please keep in mind that your incipient spins in training have occured with some training aircraft approved for spins, utility loadings, and forward CGs, which may not be situation outside the training world.

 

[poadeleted20]

As I pointed out, the average pilot is going to likely be recovering from a developed spin before the properly react.

I damned if I understand what you wrote. In any event, unless you intentionally let the spin develop well past what has been tested before initiating recovery, all the Grummans and their equivalent competitors will recover nicely. And you would have to either really intend to let the spin develop or be completely incompetent to let it get past that point.

 

[EdFred]

I'm still finding it hard to understand how I'm going to need 15 hours in a Grumman before I'm not going to wreck it.

 

[Doggtyred]

An hour or two with an experienced grumman pilot should do the trick.

Taxiing is different - castering nose wheel. Allows for tight turns but its just a different feel.

The first few seconds of takeoff roll before rudder becomes effective are a bit different too, since the nosewheel is free castering. You can ride the right brake slightly on initial roll (less desirable) or you can line up about 10 degrees left of centerline so that right turning tendency brings you back to centerline.

The plane likes to climb, and is very slick.

Short field takeoff, with climbout at VX with partial flaps, the stall horn blares but the plane climbs like a homesick angel.

The biggest "difference" is on approach and landing. Like a Mooney, the Grumman is very slick, and it will float.. and float and float.

Nail your approach speeds, without any fluff or padding. Even 5 knots over will eat up lots of runway. Plan ahead and be stabilized on final.

The checkout isn't that complicated, but its just different enough from Cessna's and Pipers that its worth getting a little instruction from someone with Grumman time.

 

[EdFred]

An hour or two with an experienced grumman pilot should do the trick.

Taxiing is different - castering nose wheel. Allows for tight turns but its just a different feel.

The first few seconds of takeoff roll before rudder becomes effective are a bit different too, since the nosewheel is free castering. You can ride the right brake slightly on initial roll (less desirable) or you can line up about 10 degrees left of centerline so that right turning tendency brings you back to centerline.

The plane likes to climb, and is very slick.

Short field takeoff, with climbout at VX with partial flaps, the stall horn blares but the plane climbs like a homesick angel.

The biggest "difference" is on approach and landing. Like a Mooney, the Grumman is very slick, and it will float.. and float and float.

Nail your approach speeds, without any fluff or padding. Even 5 knots over will eat up lots of runway. Plan ahead and be stabilized on final.

The checkout isn't that complicated, but its just different enough from Cessna's and Pipers that its worth getting a little instruction from someone with Grumman time.

So basically, I wouldn't need an instructor considering I already have a plane that wants to climb like crazy, and requires the +1/-1ktas on approach.

 

[wabower]

My checkout consisted of Eddie Martin giving me a set of keys to his new Tiger, but I can understand how a newb PPL who's been flying a 150 would need an indoc and a few laps to get the feel. There's nothing hard about it, but definitely a step-up from the first tier of SEL's.

I'm still finding it hard to understand how I'm going to need 15 hours in a Grumman before I'm not going to wreck it.

 

[EdFred]

My checkout consisted of Eddie Martin giving me a set of keys to his new Tiger, but I can understand how a newb PPL who's been flying a 150 would need an indoc and a few laps to get the feel. There's nothing hard about it, but definitely a step-up from the first tier of SEL's.

What? You mean you didn't have Ron give you a 3 day class on Grummans? I'm surprised you didn't die.

 

[wabower]

Two reasons why that didn't happen:

1. At the time he was still in college or trying to figure out what the GIB was supposed to do.

2. Ed's Tiger was a '75 model so none of that stuff had been thought up anyway.

What? You mean you didn't have Ron give you a 3 day class on Grummans? I'm surprised you didn't die.

 

[JoseCuervo]

I'm still finding it hard to understand how I'm going to need 15 hours in a Grumman before I'm not going to wreck it.

That's what you pay for. 14 hours of quality instruction of what the 15th hour will be.

 

[ryoung99]

This is exactly what is wrong with message boards, Ron and some other actual Tiger owners are trying to help a potential buyer, but some of you cannot mind your own business.

I get it, you guys are the best pilots walking the face of the earth, some of us are not so lucky and needed a bit of help. You would not need a checkout in an F16, we get it. Let it go so the actual people with Tiger time can give the advice that was asked for. If it was not for all the "so called" experts chiming in, this thread would be one page long and would have been a page 5 item by now.

I would bet Ron has forgotten more about the Tiger than almost everyone else in this thread will ever know. But a few of you cannot learn anything, so do us a favor and move on to the next thread that needs your greatness.

 

[JoseCuervo]

I would bet Ron has forgotten more about the Tiger than almost everyone else in this thread will ever know. But a few of you cannot learn anything, so do us a favor and move on to the next thread that needs your greatness.

Some of us did ask what was unique about the Tiger. And, instead of people sharing their experience, we got commercial pitches to pay for their services to find out the secrets of the Tiger. Nothing wrong with making a buck in this world, just surprised to see people sneaking their sales pitch into a thread like this.


Do you know what would require a 3, 5, or 15 hour checkout for a pilot with experience like the OP?

 

[EdFred]

This is exactly what is wrong with message boards, Ron and some other actual Tiger owners are trying to help a potential buyer, but some of you cannot mind your own business.

I get it, you guys are the best pilots walking the face of the earth, some of us are not so lucky and needed a bit of help. You would not need a checkout in an F16, we get it. Let it go so the actual people with Tiger time can give the advice that was asked for. If it was not for all the "so called" experts chiming in, this thread would be one page long and would have been a page 5 item by now.

I would bet Ron has forgotten more about the Tiger than almost everyone else in this thread will ever know. But a few of you cannot learn anything, so do us a favor and move on to the next thread that needs your greatness.

No, the issue is there isn't *that* much different about the Tiger than other 4 seaters in it's class. But there's some brainwashing that goes on with Grumman owners, just like the Van's guys that makes their plane so much different than anything else ever made that you *have* to have specialized instruction in it. It has a castering nosewheel. So what? So does an Ercoupe. But you don't hear any Ercoupe owners saying "Oh, you need at least 5 hours of transition time for an Ercoupe." It's slick and you float if you come in too fast. So does a Cardinal. And I haven't seen any Cardinal owners saying, "Well, you should really go to a Cardinal Owners Group weekend to really know how to land it." Please, if you fly the numbers you are supposed to without being lazy and getting the airspeed close, it's just about like any other 4 seater fixed gear trike gear on landing. Yeah, there's a couple things slightly different, but nowhere near what the people selling services will have you believe. Ron makes it seem like anything he's knowledgable at is going to require his expert advice and instruction that no one else can give - at a price of course.

 

[wabower]

Typical shoot the messenger response from the wadded-knicker set.

This is exactly what is wrong with message boards, Ron and some other actual Tiger owners are trying to help a potential buyer, but some of you cannot mind your own business.

I get it, you guys are the best pilots walking the face of the earth, some of us are not so lucky and needed a bit of help. You would not need a checkout in an F16, we get it. Let it go so the actual people with Tiger time can give the advice that was asked for. If it was not for all the "so called" experts chiming in, this thread would be one page long and would have been a page 5 item by now.

I would bet Ron has forgotten more about the Tiger than almost everyone else in this thread will ever know. But a few of you cannot learn anything, so do us a favor and move on to the next thread that needs your greatness.

 

[Tom-D]

T
I would bet Ron has forgotten more about the Tiger than almost everyone else in this thread will ever know.

I doubt that..

Really,,,, how much is there to know?

in his early posts he already told ya how long it takes.

 

[Skylane81E]

A lot depends on the pilot, I would feel comfortable jumping in one right now. That may not have been as wise 500hrs ago however. I'm no super pilot, but I am proficient, current and have flown planes ranging from 150s to PA-31s

 

[ryoung99]

Since I did not call anyone by name, I find the responses funny to say the least.

Knickers in a wad, not really. I just sit in amazement that some of you have nothing better to do. I would think being such ACE pilots the demand for your services would be so great you would not have time for this foolishness.

 

[EdFred]

I would think being such ACE pilots the demand for your services would be so great you would not have time for this foolishness.

Just because I am a hell of a cook, doesn't mean I'm going to go work at McDonald's.

 

[Skylane81E]

Some of us did ask what was unique about the Tiger. And, instead of people sharing their experience, we got commercial pitches to pay for their services to find out the secrets of the Tiger. Nothing wrong with making a buck in this world, just surprised to see people sneaking their sales pitch into a thread like this.


Do you know what would require a 3, 5, or 15 hour checkout for a pilot with experience like the OP?

3-5 would sound about right, it can take that long to learn new avionics.


Unless you are way out of currency or stepping way up the airplane ladder I wouldn't expect to spend 15 learning any new to you plane. Maybe that before passengers per insurance but not with a CFI. Hell I took 5.2 to get my multi...

 

[Doggtyred]

So basically, I wouldn't need an instructor considering I already have a plane that wants to climb like crazy, and requires the +1/-1ktas on approach.

No.. I didn't say that. Just pay a CFI with time and experience in type for their time and make a BFR out of it. Win Win. Why is it a big deal to spend for a few hours of instruction on top of the cost of owning and flying the plane?

 

[kontiki]

I appreciate everyones response.

I'm not particularly thin skinned about any of the internet social networking or flying stuff. That's not to say I agree with everything I hear, but I'm pretty comfortable with what I'm doing. I do this for fun anyway.

Thanks for the help.

 

[EdFred]

No.. I didn't say that. Just pay a CFI with time and experience in type for their time and make a BFR out of it. Win Win. Why is it a big deal to spend for a few hours of instruction on top of the cost of owning and flying the plane?

Because we are pilots, and while we will spend tens of thousands on an airplane, we cheap out when we can.